@Chickenhead : I've found that story from six years ago. Thanks. Not convinced that has much relevance to the conduct of the Millwall fans. I doubt they were booing Kazim Richards for being homophobic, but I guess we will never know.
@Username said:
Also, I didn't pick it up at first, but I'm pretty sure the only other time I've seen LDF pop up on here was defending racism a while back.
I've just seen this. Now I'm not just sad, I'm fucking angry. You have NEVER seen me defending racism and I want you to renounce that remark immediately.
Not just renounce it - remove it!
If it helps I have seen you adopt a position that can, reasonably, be interpreted as supporting racists
You're talking shit but if you want to interpret my concern that racial progress is going backwards as racism, so be it. Username has said he's seen me defending racism in the past and I will state categorically that I have never previously discussed the issue in The Gasroom.
I'm sure @drcongo could look back and see where you contributed before, but either way, if you've not posted on anything around the subject apologies for saying you did, but no apologies for saying you've defended racism as I would say you're defending racism in this thread, albeit dressed in a pseudo intellectual way, whether you see yourself as that or not doesn't matter.
Only my opinion of course, it's up to others to read the thread and make the their own judgement.
@Chickenhead said:
I actually think the Millwall fans were booing Kazeem Richards who was standing and doing the black power salute not the players on their knee
. This would have been like a red rag to a bull. Also Kazeem Richards was banned last season for antisemitism towards a player! The bloke is trouble.
Apart from the countless Millwall fans literally posting "Fuck BLM/ the knee" "WLM" etc etc that's entirely plausible, come on......
@EwanHoosaami said:
Just a note of observation: You don't have to be of BAME heritage to be a victim of racism! Also the definition of racism appears to have spread wider like a huge fat arse over a seat at Adams Park as the years have rolled on in my lifetime. What was a "joke" in the 1970's would now have some screaming "you can't say that", in 2020s. As such, one persons definition of racism differs to another, usually age related. How many on here can say they have never started a joke with "there was an Irishman, Welshman & an Englishman in a pub?" This leads me to the actions at Millwall, would those that expressed their displeasure be of more senior years perhaps? Could they possibly be influenced by older generations that feel they are being "oppressed/ignored" by the ever expanding BAME population on their turf?
I can't remember any group "taking the knee" until the black population of USA did as a reaction to the manner of death of George Floyd. The life of George Floyd hasn't enjoyed the best of publicity post his funeral in general. Typical of general media, "sensationalism" sells & once the funeral was over, his life of drugs & crime became the focus of news media & social media attention. From my observations, the BAME population of London, then took up the practice, in the middle of a pandemic and marched through the streets of London, which then gave food to the racists. Some of those protests led to violence/unattractive scenes. So I can see why, despite the statements of footballers/FA/players representative groups etc, have fallen on deaf/ignorant ears and taking the knee is not received well. This is why I suggested that taking out the gesture from the prematch ritual, replace it with another form, (pre match huddle?), this will remove the connection & therefore the stated reason for booing. In summary take away the food & starve the stated reasoning. It can only then be outright racism if abuse is shown?
Can’t agree with a lot of this. MLK took the knee in the 60’s. But recently, it was also made “popular” by Colin Kaepernick in the NFL. There was no association to BLM or their political ideologies back then but he was still torn apart by the right wing half of NFL fans. Makes you think maybe it’s nothing to do with politics...
Also your point that “some of these protests led to violence/unattractive scenes” in London. There were more arrests and reports of violence against police in the anti-BLM rally organised by “football fans”. Not to mention urinating on one of the statues they were so upset about being desecrated before. Makes you think maybe it’s nothing to do with statues...
@Username said:
Also, I didn't pick it up at first, but I'm pretty sure the only other time I've seen LDF pop up on here was defending racism a while back.
I've just seen this. Now I'm not just sad, I'm fucking angry. You have NEVER seen me defending racism and I want you to renounce that remark immediately.
Not just renounce it - remove it!
If it helps I have seen you adopt a position that can, reasonably, be interpreted as supporting racists
You're talking shit but if you want to interpret my concern that racial progress is going backwards as racism, so be it. Username has said he's seen me defending racism in the past and I will state categorically that I have never previously discussed the issue in The Gasroom.
I'm sure @drcongo could look back and see where you contributed before, but either way, if you've not posted on anything around the subject apologies for saying you did, but no apologies for saying you've defended racism as I would say you're defending racism in this thread, albeit dressed in a pseudo intellectual way, whether you see yourself as that or not doesn't matter.
Only my opinion of course, it's up to others to read the thread and make the their own judgement.
You could take the time to look back yourself to see if your defamatory conjecture was well-founded - it's not. And this might give you pause for thought about whether the way you've framed this discussion and its participants in your mind might be mistaken. Currently, your position seems to be along the lines of "sorry I said to everyone that you'd been a racism apologist (for which, read 'racist') before but it doesn't matter because you are one anyway".
Well fair play to Millwall for respecting the gestures tonight and well done to our own @glasshalffull for a well balanced monologue to open the match commentary. Please to see that most fans have seen the error of their ways.
@Username said:
Also, I didn't pick it up at first, but I'm pretty sure the only other time I've seen LDF pop up on here was defending racism a while back.
I've just seen this. Now I'm not just sad, I'm fucking angry. You have NEVER seen me defending racism and I want you to renounce that remark immediately.
Not just renounce it - remove it!
If it helps I have seen you adopt a position that can, reasonably, be interpreted as supporting racists
You're talking shit but if you want to interpret my concern that racial progress is going backwards as racism, so be it. Username has said he's seen me defending racism in the past and I will state categorically that I have never previously discussed the issue in The Gasroom.
I'm sure @drcongo could look back and see where you contributed before, but either way, if you've not posted on anything around the subject apologies for saying you did, but no apologies for saying you've defended racism as I would say you're defending racism in this thread, albeit dressed in a pseudo intellectual way, whether you see yourself as that or not doesn't matter.
Only my opinion of course, it's up to others to read the thread and make the their own judgement.
You could take the time to look back yourself to see if your defamatory conjecture was well-founded - it's not. And this might give you pause for thought about whether the way you've framed this discussion and its participants in your mind might be mistaken. Currently, your position seems to be along the lines of "sorry I said to everyone that you'd been a racism apologist (for which, read 'racist') before but it doesn't matter because you are one anyway."
"Pseudo-intellectual"?!
"It's not" , in your opinion. As I said, it's my opinion, up to individuals to decide themselves if they agree or not.
And no, you've entirely misrepresented my position.
My position is that I believe what LDF has posted would count as defending racism, and whether he himself sees himself as doing that doesn't affect my opinion on that- I'm not necessarily accusing him of thinking that what he is writing is defending racism, I've no idea of that
@JohnBoy said:
Well fair play to Millwall for respecting the gestures tonight and well done to our own @glasshalffull for a well balanced monologue to open the match commentary. Please to see that most fans have seen the error of their ways.
I wouldn't be so sure of that. I think enough of them just realised they were in the spotlight tonight and it was probably best to keep shut / fans who stayed silent on Saturday applauded instead tonight.
@JohnBoy said:
Well fair play to Millwall for respecting the gestures tonight and well done to our own @glasshalffull for a well balanced monologue to open the match commentary. Please to see that most fans have seen the error of their ways.
I wouldn't be so sure of that. I think enough of them just realised they were in the spotlight tonight and it was probably best to keep shut / fans who stayed silent on Saturday applauder instead tonight.
Exactly that looking at their forum.
But fair play to those who did applaud, and to the QPR players to not let Millwall fans dictate a race equality protest.
Romeo standing alone doing a black power salute isn't likely to game gone down well with the fans, balls of steel on him.
@Username said:
Also, I didn't pick it up at first, but I'm pretty sure the only other time I've seen LDF pop up on here was defending racism a while back.
I've just seen this. Now I'm not just sad, I'm fucking angry. You have NEVER seen me defending racism and I want you to renounce that remark immediately.
Not just renounce it - remove it!
If it helps I have seen you adopt a position that can, reasonably, be interpreted as supporting racists
You're talking shit but if you want to interpret my concern that racial progress is going backwards as racism, so be it. Username has said he's seen me defending racism in the past and I will state categorically that I have never previously discussed the issue in The Gasroom.
I'm sure @drcongo could look back and see where you contributed before, but either way, if you've not posted on anything around the subject apologies for saying you did, but no apologies for saying you've defended racism as I would say you're defending racism in this thread, albeit dressed in a pseudo intellectual way, whether you see yourself as that or not doesn't matter.
Only my opinion of course, it's up to others to read the thread and make the their own judgement.
You could take the time to look back yourself to see if your defamatory conjecture was well-founded - it's not. And this might give you pause for thought about whether the way you've framed this discussion and its participants in your mind might be mistaken. Currently, your position seems to be along the lines of "sorry I said to everyone that you'd been a racism apologist (for which, read 'racist') before but it doesn't matter because you are one anyway."
"Pseudo-intellectual"?!
"It's not" , in your opinion. As I said, it's my opinion, up to individuals to decide themselves if they agree or not.
And no, you've entirely misrepresented my position.
My position is that I believe what LDF has posted would count as defending racism, and whether he himself sees himself as doing that doesn't affect my opinion on that- I'm not necessarily accusing him of thinking that what he is writing is defending racism, I've no idea of that
Hope that's clear
No. Your initial defamation was unfounded, as you would see if you took the trouble to check back yourself. If you owe him an apology for it, you owe a proper one not a mealy-mouthed one of the sort you offered in your previous post. And if he doesn't think he's defending racism then he's not and it doesn't "count as defending racism"; you're just trying to establish him in an out category to justify your position to yourself and this audience.
@JohnBoy said:
Well fair play to Millwall for respecting the gestures tonight and well done to our own @glasshalffull for a well balanced monologue to open the match commentary. Please to see that most fans have seen the error of their ways.
I wouldn't be so sure of that. I think enough of them just realised they were in the spotlight tonight and it was probably best to keep shut / fans who stayed silent on Saturday applauded instead tonight.
So, damned if you do and damned if you don't then?
@JohnBoy said:
Well fair play to Millwall for respecting the gestures tonight and well done to our own @glasshalffull for a well balanced monologue to open the match commentary. Please to see that most fans have seen the error of their ways.
I wouldn't be so sure of that. I think enough of them just realised they were in the spotlight tonight and it was probably best to keep shut / fans who stayed silent on Saturday applauded instead tonight.
So, damned if you do and damned if you don't then?
@Username said:
Also, I didn't pick it up at first, but I'm pretty sure the only other time I've seen LDF pop up on here was defending racism a while back.
I've just seen this. Now I'm not just sad, I'm fucking angry. You have NEVER seen me defending racism and I want you to renounce that remark immediately.
Not just renounce it - remove it!
If it helps I have seen you adopt a position that can, reasonably, be interpreted as supporting racists
You're talking shit but if you want to interpret my concern that racial progress is going backwards as racism, so be it. Username has said he's seen me defending racism in the past and I will state categorically that I have never previously discussed the issue in The Gasroom.
I'm sure @drcongo could look back and see where you contributed before, but either way, if you've not posted on anything around the subject apologies for saying you did, but no apologies for saying you've defended racism as I would say you're defending racism in this thread, albeit dressed in a pseudo intellectual way, whether you see yourself as that or not doesn't matter.
Only my opinion of course, it's up to others to read the thread and make the their own judgement.
You could take the time to look back yourself to see if your defamatory conjecture was well-founded - it's not. And this might give you pause for thought about whether the way you've framed this discussion and its participants in your mind might be mistaken. Currently, your position seems to be along the lines of "sorry I said to everyone that you'd been a racism apologist (for which, read 'racist') before but it doesn't matter because you are one anyway."
"Pseudo-intellectual"?!
"It's not" , in your opinion. As I said, it's my opinion, up to individuals to decide themselves if they agree or not.
And no, you've entirely misrepresented my position.
My position is that I believe what LDF has posted would count as defending racism, and whether he himself sees himself as doing that doesn't affect my opinion on that- I'm not necessarily accusing him of thinking that what he is writing is defending racism, I've no idea of that
Hope that's clear
No. Your initial defamation was unfounded, as you would see if you took the trouble to check back yourself. If you owe him an apology for it, you owe a proper one not a mealy-mouthed one of the sort you offered in your previous post. And if he doesn't think he's defending racism then he's not and it doesn't "count as defending racism"; you're just trying to establish him in an out category to justify your position to yourself and this audience.
A racist person who doesn't admit they're racist doesn't make them not so ffs
Same with someone defending it
That's up to the individual or society as a whole to decide within reasonable extremes- where this definitely falls. I, as an individual, have the opinion that it is defending racism, which is what I was being asked to apologise for accusing him of doing previously... The apology for that would be a bit pointless if in the next paragraph I just said that I think he's done it in here don't you think?
I suppose that's a novel way to get rid of racism, if it only counted if the perpetrator was proud enough of being racist to openly admit it.
@Username said:
Also, I didn't pick it up at first, but I'm pretty sure the only other time I've seen LDF pop up on here was defending racism a while back.
Pretty telling when the only things you feel strongly enough to defend our give your opinions on are the actions of the Millwall massive.
He might be able to spell which threw me, but his true beliefs are obvious in my eyes
Does this help you remember? And nice ad hominem at the end, too.
To sum up:
paragraph 1 - false and defamatory
paragraph 2 - false and defamatory
paragraph 3 - insulting, arrogant and defamatory
@Username said:
Also, I didn't pick it up at first, but I'm pretty sure the only other time I've seen LDF pop up on here was defending racism a while back.
Pretty telling when the only things you feel strongly enough to defend our give your opinions on are the actions of the Millwall massive.
He might be able to spell which threw me, but his true beliefs are obvious in my eyes
Does this help you remember? And nice ad hominem at the end, too.
90% of his contributions to the gasroom across multiple years are defending Millwall fans in an argument about an anti racism movement.
I'm arguing with people that I see as entirely damaging to society, I'm restraining myself as much as possible and tbh I'm beyond the point of giving a shit about if you or he are offended.
@Username said:
Also, I didn't pick it up at first, but I'm pretty sure the only other time I've seen LDF pop up on here was defending racism a while back.
Pretty telling when the only things you feel strongly enough to defend our give your opinions on are the actions of the Millwall massive.
He might be able to spell which threw me, but his true beliefs are obvious in my eyes
Does this help you remember? And nice ad hominem at the end, too.
90% of his contributions to the gasroom across multiple years are defending Millwall fans in an argument about an anti racism movement.
I'm arguing with people that I see as entirely damaging to society, I'm restraining myself as much as possible and tbh I'm beyond the point of giving a shit about if you or he are offended.
Have a good evening.
None of his posts have defended Millwall fans. He just hasn't said what you wanted him to say. Nothing in the way you have communicated with him or me has suggested you ever gave a shit. You have defamed someone with a different view to yours and, when challenged, failed to withdraw the, totally unfounded, allegation you made, not bothered even to check back to see if it was substantiated and instead sought to justify it by claiming to be arguing against people who are "entirely" damaging to society.
@LDF said:
Thanks for the input, HCblue. Let's leave it at that - you can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. COYMB!
@JohnBoy think you've missed my point. Trying to balance the books by saying the other side did bad etc, is irrelevant. I was referring to the Millwall fans and possible reasons for their stance on kneeling. Reality being that they are not going to spend hours studying the history of taking the knee. It came to major prominence as a highlight of the method of restraint that was used on George Floyd. Perception/association will be key in this and many other venues. Like I keep saying use another gesture, take away the feed and the true racists will surface.
@EwanHoosaami said: @JohnBoy think you've missed my point. Trying to balance the books by saying the other side did bad etc, is irrelevant. I was referring to the Millwall fans and possible reasons for their stance on kneeling. Reality being that they are not going to spend hours studying the history of taking the knee. It came to major prominence as a highlight of the method of restraint that was used on George Floyd. Perception/association will be key in this and many other venues. Like I keep saying use another gesture, take away the feed and the true racists will surface.
So the protesters can only protest in ways that are approved?
The reason QPR took the knee today (when they previously haven't done) will have been largely because of that- to not let it look like Millwall fans have been allowed to set the agenda of whether players can take the knee before games.
If it was standing on their head that took off, once it got traction the "other side" would find a mechanism to discredit it that wasn't as blatant as "We don't want racial equality". Whichever mechanism they choose will have stands of legitimacy, and mean that non racists with genuine issues get caught up in it. If movements get really big, fringes of it will be highlighted as representing the entire cause.
In this case it's Marxism, and a small group who set up a political party that the BLM official movement distanced themselves from. In America it was disrespecting the flag, in the 60s I'm sure it was something else, probably less subtle.
Would be exactly the same if it was a right wing cause, the left would do the same, it's just what happens.
@Username said:
Anyone in doubt as to how something as simple as taking the knee can be important just needs to look at how it's firing up the world renowned family club supporters of Millwall.
"Compared to where my heads been at over the last few days, that’s a fkin relief and great news.
I know that might not satisfy you all, but the boos and probably a lot of us on here has stopped the brainless knee bollx.
All of us and the people that bood plus the media that’s supported us, the celebs ish that have stood up for us and general common sense has prevailed.
Millwall supporters have ended the knee. Probably one of the proudest moments of my Millwall career. Now watch the rest follow.
Fkin brilliant Millwall. The biggest small club in the world - its official!"
I'd love to have seen his/her face when the Millwall and QPR players made a point of taking the knee this evening to spite people who take great delight in telling BAME how they can and can't peacefully protest.
@EwanHoosaami I know you didn;t mean this the way it looked but
'Could they possibly be influenced by older generations that feel they are being "oppressed/ignored" by the ever expanding BAME population on their turf?'
looks a bit 'They come over here...move in next door...'
Comments
We all know Millwall fans are notorious for their hated of anyone insulting the Jewish or LGBT communites of course...
@Chickenhead : I've found that story from six years ago. Thanks. Not convinced that has much relevance to the conduct of the Millwall fans. I doubt they were booing Kazim Richards for being homophobic, but I guess we will never know.
Millwall fans don't discriminate...in their discrimination.
I'm sure @drcongo could look back and see where you contributed before, but either way, if you've not posted on anything around the subject apologies for saying you did, but no apologies for saying you've defended racism as I would say you're defending racism in this thread, albeit dressed in a pseudo intellectual way, whether you see yourself as that or not doesn't matter.
Only my opinion of course, it's up to others to read the thread and make the their own judgement.
Apart from the countless Millwall fans literally posting "Fuck BLM/ the knee" "WLM" etc etc that's entirely plausible, come on......
Can’t agree with a lot of this. MLK took the knee in the 60’s. But recently, it was also made “popular” by Colin Kaepernick in the NFL. There was no association to BLM or their political ideologies back then but he was still torn apart by the right wing half of NFL fans. Makes you think maybe it’s nothing to do with politics...
Also your point that “some of these protests led to violence/unattractive scenes” in London. There were more arrests and reports of violence against police in the anti-BLM rally organised by “football fans”. Not to mention urinating on one of the statues they were so upset about being desecrated before. Makes you think maybe it’s nothing to do with statues...
You could take the time to look back yourself to see if your defamatory conjecture was well-founded - it's not. And this might give you pause for thought about whether the way you've framed this discussion and its participants in your mind might be mistaken. Currently, your position seems to be along the lines of "sorry I said to everyone that you'd been a racism apologist (for which, read 'racist') before but it doesn't matter because you are one anyway".
"Pseudo-intellectual"?!
Well fair play to Millwall for respecting the gestures tonight and well done to our own @glasshalffull for a well balanced monologue to open the match commentary. Please to see that most fans have seen the error of their ways.
"It's not" , in your opinion. As I said, it's my opinion, up to individuals to decide themselves if they agree or not.
And no, you've entirely misrepresented my position.
My position is that I believe what LDF has posted would count as defending racism, and whether he himself sees himself as doing that doesn't affect my opinion on that- I'm not necessarily accusing him of thinking that what he is writing is defending racism, I've no idea of that
Hope that's clear
I wouldn't be so sure of that. I think enough of them just realised they were in the spotlight tonight and it was probably best to keep shut / fans who stayed silent on Saturday applauded instead tonight.
Exactly that looking at their forum.
But fair play to those who did applaud, and to the QPR players to not let Millwall fans dictate a race equality protest.
Romeo standing alone doing a black power salute isn't likely to game gone down well with the fans, balls of steel on him.
No. Your initial defamation was unfounded, as you would see if you took the trouble to check back yourself. If you owe him an apology for it, you owe a proper one not a mealy-mouthed one of the sort you offered in your previous post. And if he doesn't think he's defending racism then he's not and it doesn't "count as defending racism"; you're just trying to establish him in an out category to justify your position to yourself and this audience.
So, damned if you do and damned if you don't then?
Not really what he’s saying.
A racist person who doesn't admit they're racist doesn't make them not so ffs
Same with someone defending it
That's up to the individual or society as a whole to decide within reasonable extremes- where this definitely falls. I, as an individual, have the opinion that it is defending racism, which is what I was being asked to apologise for accusing him of doing previously... The apology for that would be a bit pointless if in the next paragraph I just said that I think he's done it in here don't you think?
I suppose that's a novel way to get rid of racism, if it only counted if the perpetrator was proud enough of being racist to openly admit it.
Does this help you remember? And nice ad hominem at the end, too.
To sum up:
paragraph 1 - false and defamatory
paragraph 2 - false and defamatory
paragraph 3 - insulting, arrogant and defamatory
90% of his contributions to the gasroom across multiple years are defending Millwall fans in an argument about an anti racism movement.
I'm arguing with people that I see as entirely damaging to society, I'm restraining myself as much as possible and tbh I'm beyond the point of giving a shit about if you or he are offended.
Have a good evening.
Thanks for the input, HCblue. Let's leave it at that - you can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. COYMB!
None of his posts have defended Millwall fans. He just hasn't said what you wanted him to say. Nothing in the way you have communicated with him or me has suggested you ever gave a shit. You have defamed someone with a different view to yours and, when challenged, failed to withdraw the, totally unfounded, allegation you made, not bothered even to check back to see if it was substantiated and instead sought to justify it by claiming to be arguing against people who are "entirely" damaging to society.
Have a good evening yourself.
Seeing this after my previous one. Righto.
@JohnBoy think you've missed my point. Trying to balance the books by saying the other side did bad etc, is irrelevant. I was referring to the Millwall fans and possible reasons for their stance on kneeling. Reality being that they are not going to spend hours studying the history of taking the knee. It came to major prominence as a highlight of the method of restraint that was used on George Floyd. Perception/association will be key in this and many other venues. Like I keep saying use another gesture, take away the feed and the true racists will surface.
Are you @LDF's dad @HCblue?
Not to my knowledge.
I hope nobody on here is watching the PSG game....
Because I obviously couldn't post them all. It makes the point equally well and if you can't see that then you don't understand my point.
So the protesters can only protest in ways that are approved?
The reason QPR took the knee today (when they previously haven't done) will have been largely because of that- to not let it look like Millwall fans have been allowed to set the agenda of whether players can take the knee before games.
If it was standing on their head that took off, once it got traction the "other side" would find a mechanism to discredit it that wasn't as blatant as "We don't want racial equality". Whichever mechanism they choose will have stands of legitimacy, and mean that non racists with genuine issues get caught up in it. If movements get really big, fringes of it will be highlighted as representing the entire cause.
In this case it's Marxism, and a small group who set up a political party that the BLM official movement distanced themselves from. In America it was disrespecting the flag, in the 60s I'm sure it was something else, probably less subtle.
Would be exactly the same if it was a right wing cause, the left would do the same, it's just what happens.
I'd love to have seen his/her face when the Millwall and QPR players made a point of taking the knee this evening to spite people who take great delight in telling BAME how they can and can't peacefully protest.
@EwanHoosaami I know you didn;t mean this the way it looked but
'Could they possibly be influenced by older generations that feel they are being "oppressed/ignored" by the ever expanding BAME population on their turf?'
looks a bit 'They come over here...move in next door...'
Was that booed?
The İstanbul Başakşehir assistant manager has been racially abused by the fourth official in the Champions league, game suspended.