@Right_in_the_Middle said:
I don't remember the taking the knee getting applauded last Wednesday but please correct me if I am wrong.
It wasn't, there was actually quite a poignant moment of silence which felt positively reflective. However, after this week's events the Col U chairman encouraged his fans to applaud the knee and I for one (rivalries aside) think that is a magnificent gesture.
@LDF said:
Am I dreaming or did Username just say that someone else had a fair viewpoint? And I was just about to say that Username is starting to sound like a parody of theirself. (sorry, don't know your pronouns).
I've agreed with one or two of the many tangentsial arguments you've thrown out to distract and troll in this thread, so I'm really not following you here. Back under your rock now until this evening when I'm sure you'll be back to defend the upstanding Millwall hardcore
You have? I'd best go back and see if I can find them, lol.
While I've got your attention - I've had a more thorough read of all the posts from before I joined in yesterday and I must say that although you are clearly trying to speak the language of Critical Race Theory, your understanding of it is limited at best. You speak of 'systematic racism'. No, CRT is not talking about systematic racism; even its most rabid proponents concede that systematic racism hasn't been a thing for a while (if it ever was in Britain). Presumably you are alluding to systematic racism's invisible cousin, systemic racism. You also keep mentioning equality but you're behind the times as the conversation's now about the more abstract concept of equity.
As for the general tone of your arguments, you have provided a textbook example of why we are in a so-called culture war: in fact to the extent that I was beginning to wonder if you are trying to be the new Titania McGrath. I find it absolutely staggering that you can throw around accusations of facism and suggest that people who aren't on board with CRT dogma should be forcibly removed from society and you see no irony. I'm afraid it's this kind of attitude that is hardening positions, some of which actually are repugnant, and the reason that events in Bermondsey have opened a wider can of worms. I'd like to ask you a question and this is not designed to catch you out, I'm asking from a genuine place of good intent and curiosity. You say you're an anti-racist: what have you done to fight racism?
I'll ignore your attempt to draw me into an argument on a niche theory that you've clearly fallen into the rabbit hole of, I had a quick Google following Chris' comments on it, and you're being entirely disingenuous with the way you're presenting it- but you know that
Not sure why Im going to answer the last bit but I will bite
1) Not being racist, listening and changing my own behaviour after listening to my non white friends /family
2) I joined them in the protests this Summer
3) Community work at underprivileged, largely non white schools I guess? Although race was nothing to do with the reason for doing that
4) Had two actual fights with overt drunk racists, one in wycombe that ended with the bouncer putting the guy in hospital and myself helping a work colleague I didn't really know get to A&E with concussion after being attacked, and one at university where myself and 2 friends intervened in an incident- found out that the
person was also charged for racially aggravated assault as well as recovering from a broken arm so all in all that went well for him.
I can see why it is a culture war for you, your views are no longer acceptable and you're fighting against that- but don't for a minute think that most people fundamentally agree with you, even if you can convince enough people to disapprove of specific aspects of the anti-racism movement.
You are clearly out of touch with the debate. If you think CRT is a niche theory, you must have been living under a rock. If you think I'm a racist with unacceptable views then you haven't read/can't comprehend what I've said or you've swallowed CRT dogma without even realising it. I've tried to avoid personal insult but your attitude towards people who don't share your very narrow view of the world is vile. Putting it very mildly.
@LDF said:
You are clearly out of touch with the debate. If you think CRT is a niche theory, you must have been living under a rock. If you think I'm a racist with unacceptable views then you haven't read/can't comprehend what I've said or you've swallowed CRT dogma without even realising it. I've tried to avoid personal insult but your attitude towards people who don't share your very narrow view of the world is vile. Putting it very mildly.
I don't know if you're a racist, I suspect you are though, and you are a racist sympathiser at best.
Not accepting people with views which impact on others lives for no other than the reason of their skin (even those who don't realise they their views are exactly this) - and people who allow those views to exist- is just normal for me, if you think it's vile fine- I've got a clear conscience and I'm sure I'll be on the right side of history.
Just one more thing - you're arguing with me about a subject I've spent four years studying - after a quick Google search. And you expect to be taken seriously!
@NewburyWanderer thanks for that. Its been years now though and I'm still.not sure who this certain section of society that is oppressing us with political correctness is? It does not seem to be very good at stopping racists getting on telly, in Parliament, writing in newspapers, on social media, marching in the street fighting with policemen, pissing on memorials and booing black players at football matches. If people chose they can still hate blacks, asians and gay people but if political correctness means they have to keep it down at work or in the media I'm all for it myself.
@chairboyscentral said:
If I were one of our BAME players, I'd be saddened to read the apologism on this thread from my own fans.
This isn't a snipe at you @chairboyscentral as your words are well intentioned and without the first part of the sentence I'd agree 100%
The problem with 'If I were...' is that you are not and never will be. A seemingly tiny thing to us but massive to all those BAME people who experience inequality every single day. We can't ever understand the frustrations and sometimes fear that brings and how that helps shape reactions and protests.
Maybe education is the answer but if this thread has shown me anything those on all sides of this complex issue would argue they are educated about it. I think education counts for little when experience counts for so much. No idea how we get that experience but I can't see another way forward apart from taking personal responsibility for your actions and authorities actually having the guts to punish those that are causing these experiences.
@chairboyscentral said:
If I were one of our BAME players, I'd be saddened to read the apologism on this thread from my own fans.
This isn't a snipe at you @chairboyscentral as your words are well intentioned and without the first part of the sentence I'd agree 100%
The problem with 'If I were...' is that you are not and never will be. A seemingly tiny thing to us but massive to all those BAME people who experience inequality every single day. We can't ever understand the frustrations and sometimes fear that brings and how that helps shape reactions and protests.
Maybe education is the answer but if this thread has shown me anything those on all sides of this complex issue would argue they are educated about it. I think education counts for little when experience counts for so much. No idea how we get that experience but I can't see another way forward apart from taking personal responsibility for your actions and authorities actually having the guts to punish those that are causing these experiences.
This is true. I just mean they all take the knee, so I don't think it's unreasonable to assume they'd take issue with people siding with those who boo it.
@LDF said:
Just one more thing - you're arguing with me about a subject I've spent four years studying - after a quick Google search. And you expect to be taken seriously!
I literally said I didn't want to get into an argument on it for that exact reason, any straw to grasp onto though eh. Back to your "studies", explains why you don't see it as niche if you've buried yourself in it. A quick Google is enough to see it's not as narrow a definition as you're trying to make out.
@LDF said:
Just one more thing - you're arguing with me about a subject I've spent four years studying - after a quick Google search. And you expect to be taken seriously!
I literally said I didn't want to get into an argument on it for that exact reason, any straw to grasp onto though eh. Back to your "studies", explains why you don't see it as niche if you've buried yourself in it. A quick Google is enough to see it's not as narrow a definition as you're trying to make out.
This year's bestselling book in the US, if not Britain as well, is based on CRT. As is the language in your posts, which sounds as if it's ripped straight from a corporate diversity training package.
Sure it has. "Lads, have you heard about this book on critical race theory that's sold well? Let me give you a brief synopsis and then we'll decide how to react to our players taking a knee yeah?"
I saw that you were the victim of racist abuse/attack, and I saw the question asked before, I didn't see the answer and this thread is rather long now...
Sure it has. "Lads, have you heard about this book on critical race theory that's sold well? Let me give you a brief synopsis and then we'll decide how to react to our players taking a knee yeah?"
Exactly, it's laughable to think that if you asked most of the booers what critical race theory is they'd have any real clue
If anyone is in any doubt of who's"right"and "wrong" in this, just take a look through the Millwall forum and ask yourself if they are the group you want to align yourself with, or whether the fact they feel they might be being forced out the game might be a good thing.
Yes there's shades of grey, but generally those that spend the time to vent their views in full are further into the black or white.
Sure it has. "Lads, have you heard about this book on critical race theory that's sold well? Let me give you a brief synopsis and then we'll decide how to react to our players taking a knee yeah?"
Now you're just being facetious. The fact is, that rightly or wrongly, a lot of whites (working class ones in particular) are under the impression that the latest doctrine (coming mainly from posh people) says white=bad. If they've got it wrong then the message needs to be clearer. At the moment it is counter-productive to fighting racism. That's why I've got a problem with a message that can easily be construed as anti-white.
White and black players joining together to make a gesture to show that they stand against discrimination, having already explicitly explained that they are not aligned in any way with the BLM political movement, can not "easily" be construed as "anti-white"
You can type out hundreds more posts if you like banging on about Marxism, and critical race theory, and whatever other fairytale you've concocted to justify the unjustifiable, but when it all comes down to it we all know what would motivate a person to boo that gesture, and I suspect you do as well
@LDF said:
I have no idea why my comment would mean I'm a racist sympathiser, I'm anything but. Taking the knee is pointless unless there's a specific aim and a timescale. Saying it'll end when racism ends is nonsense, for obvious reasons, and if everyone does it forever it becomes meaningless. All that's happening is that a rift is being created between those who take the knee and those who don't. That's what some people want.
That isn't the point the Millwall fans who booed are making. They apparently equate making a gesture against racism and prejudice to "Marxism" and a "political opinion".
Of course the gesture of taking a knee can't go on forever, though the actions of morons booing will only strengthen the case for players to continue, and no doubt strengthen their resolve to continue making their point.
QPR's players deciding to take the knee again after having previously come to the conclusion you outlined, consider Saturday's events at The Den to be the whole point as to why a statement against racist attitudes in football, and in society in general, has to be taken.
‘Stand’ rather than ‘statement’ in last paragraph?
I adopted a slightly flippant approach last night regarding @LDF’s apparent failure to show any interest in the activities of Wycombe Wanderers over a period of nearly six years. I remain puzzled but, after reading some of his/her more recent posts, I am more understanding. As a statement of the bleedin’ obvious, no-one should have to go through the abuse that he/she describes.
All the best to @glasshalffull this evening by the way. I suspect the audience for this game will be multiplied by a significant amount and if things do turn depressingly sour then I dare say it could be some of the most important commentary he's done in years.
Comments
It wasn't, there was actually quite a poignant moment of silence which felt positively reflective. However, after this week's events the Col U chairman encouraged his fans to applaud the knee and I for one (rivalries aside) think that is a magnificent gesture.
I'll ignore your attempt to draw me into an argument on a niche theory that you've clearly fallen into the rabbit hole of, I had a quick Google following Chris' comments on it, and you're being entirely disingenuous with the way you're presenting it- but you know that
Not sure why Im going to answer the last bit but I will bite
1) Not being racist, listening and changing my own behaviour after listening to my non white friends /family
2) I joined them in the protests this Summer
3) Community work at underprivileged, largely non white schools I guess? Although race was nothing to do with the reason for doing that
4) Had two actual fights with overt drunk racists, one in wycombe that ended with the bouncer putting the guy in hospital and myself helping a work colleague I didn't really know get to A&E with concussion after being attacked, and one at university where myself and 2 friends intervened in an incident- found out that the
person was also charged for racially aggravated assault as well as recovering from a broken arm so all in all that went well for him.
I can see why it is a culture war for you, your views are no longer acceptable and you're fighting against that- but don't for a minute think that most people fundamentally agree with you, even if you can convince enough people to disapprove of specific aspects of the anti-racism movement.
You are clearly out of touch with the debate. If you think CRT is a niche theory, you must have been living under a rock. If you think I'm a racist with unacceptable views then you haven't read/can't comprehend what I've said or you've swallowed CRT dogma without even realising it. I've tried to avoid personal insult but your attitude towards people who don't share your very narrow view of the world is vile. Putting it very mildly.
I don't know if you're a racist, I suspect you are though, and you are a racist sympathiser at best.
Not accepting people with views which impact on others lives for no other than the reason of their skin (even those who don't realise they their views are exactly this) - and people who allow those views to exist- is just normal for me, if you think it's vile fine- I've got a clear conscience and I'm sure I'll be on the right side of history.
I hope they do, if that's the way the players genuinely feel they want to protest, they shouldn't be in any way influenced by the crowd.
Just one more thing - you're arguing with me about a subject I've spent four years studying - after a quick Google search. And you expect to be taken seriously!
@NewburyWanderer thanks for that. Its been years now though and I'm still.not sure who this certain section of society that is oppressing us with political correctness is? It does not seem to be very good at stopping racists getting on telly, in Parliament, writing in newspapers, on social media, marching in the street fighting with policemen, pissing on memorials and booing black players at football matches. If people chose they can still hate blacks, asians and gay people but if political correctness means they have to keep it down at work or in the media I'm all for it myself.
Username and DrCongo - he's talking about you.
I meant to post this one, not the Brexit one (that's good too)
This isn't a snipe at you @chairboyscentral as your words are well intentioned and without the first part of the sentence I'd agree 100%
The problem with 'If I were...' is that you are not and never will be. A seemingly tiny thing to us but massive to all those BAME people who experience inequality every single day. We can't ever understand the frustrations and sometimes fear that brings and how that helps shape reactions and protests.
Maybe education is the answer but if this thread has shown me anything those on all sides of this complex issue would argue they are educated about it. I think education counts for little when experience counts for so much. No idea how we get that experience but I can't see another way forward apart from taking personal responsibility for your actions and authorities actually having the guts to punish those that are causing these experiences.
This is true. I just mean they all take the knee, so I don't think it's unreasonable to assume they'd take issue with people siding with those who boo it.
Why didn't you post this one I wonder
I literally said I didn't want to get into an argument on it for that exact reason, any straw to grasp onto though eh. Back to your "studies", explains why you don't see it as niche if you've buried yourself in it. A quick Google is enough to see it's not as narrow a definition as you're trying to make out.
Christ Jonathan Pie is annoying even when you agree with him.
This year's bestselling book in the US, if not Britain as well, is based on CRT. As is the language in your posts, which sounds as if it's ripped straight from a corporate diversity training package.
Must have sold well in South London as those Millwall fans that were booing the other night have obviously all read it
A Promised Land by Barack Obama? Or Too Much and Never Enough by Mary Trump?
I doubt it but the thrust of it has undoubtedly filtered down to them and therein lies the problem. Plot-spoiler - if you're white you're bad.
Are you white?
UKIP are now publicly encouraging fans to boo the knee. But the booers don't like politics in football, right? So I assume they'll stop booing.
"undoubtedly filtered down"
Sure it has. "Lads, have you heard about this book on critical race theory that's sold well? Let me give you a brief synopsis and then we'll decide how to react to our players taking a knee yeah?"
Have you read my posts?
I saw that you were the victim of racist abuse/attack, and I saw the question asked before, I didn't see the answer and this thread is rather long now...
Exactly, it's laughable to think that if you asked most of the booers what critical race theory is they'd have any real clue
If anyone is in any doubt of who's"right"and "wrong" in this, just take a look through the Millwall forum and ask yourself if they are the group you want to align yourself with, or whether the fact they feel they might be being forced out the game might be a good thing.
Yes there's shades of grey, but generally those that spend the time to vent their views in full are further into the black or white.
Now you're just being facetious. The fact is, that rightly or wrongly, a lot of whites (working class ones in particular) are under the impression that the latest doctrine (coming mainly from posh people) says white=bad. If they've got it wrong then the message needs to be clearer. At the moment it is counter-productive to fighting racism. That's why I've got a problem with a message that can easily be construed as anti-white.
Well fuck me sideways and call me Suzie - you've conceded there are shades of grey. There's still some hope for the world!
White and black players joining together to make a gesture to show that they stand against discrimination, having already explicitly explained that they are not aligned in any way with the BLM political movement, can not "easily" be construed as "anti-white"
You can type out hundreds more posts if you like banging on about Marxism, and critical race theory, and whatever other fairytale you've concocted to justify the unjustifiable, but when it all comes down to it we all know what would motivate a person to boo that gesture, and I suspect you do as well
‘Stand’ rather than ‘statement’ in last paragraph?
I agree very much with your sentiments @ReadingMarginalista and those of @NewburyWanderer.
I adopted a slightly flippant approach last night regarding @LDF’s apparent failure to show any interest in the activities of Wycombe Wanderers over a period of nearly six years. I remain puzzled but, after reading some of his/her more recent posts, I am more understanding. As a statement of the bleedin’ obvious, no-one should have to go through the abuse that he/she describes.
All the best to @glasshalffull this evening by the way. I suspect the audience for this game will be multiplied by a significant amount and if things do turn depressingly sour then I dare say it could be some of the most important commentary he's done in years.