I just thought of an illustration (reminded by @EwanHoosaami 's talk of jokes suddenly being offensive) as I love comedy. Take Bob Monkhouse (a hero of mine) and Jim Davidson. Both club comedians of the old school one starting in the 1950s and the other late 60s and 70s. Monkhouse (an old Tory I know) was a big comedy fan and student of the game...he watched all the new comedians and saw where the land lay and tailored his club act to suit...still crude and about sex...more topical, more about his career and the failings of his love life and far far less 'racial' humour and far far less punching down. Davidson saw where the land lay and just kept on being Chalkie White and talking about women treating him badly and moaned and moaned and moaned about things changing and lefties stopping him getting on the telly and 'alternative comedy being an alternative to comedy' until no-one wanted to work with him on anything but his 'adult pantos'. The world changes, you either go along with it and see where it takes you...or spend your
life railing against the shifting sands and wishing it was back in the golden olden days when everything was great. (It wasn't) Pleased to see what happened today and On that note I bid you goodnight!
@Johnboy for the record the patriot was fined not for pissing on a statue but the memorial to the police officer murdered outside Parliament. He had not noticed it and had no idea what it was supposed to represent. He had answered the brave call to to protect the statues (which were not under any actual threat) but...of course...admitted when asked that he had no idea what statues he was supposed to be protecting. He had prepared for this selfless act of civic duty by getting pissed as a fart.
The İstanbul Başakşehir assistant manager has been racially abused by the fourth official in the Champions league, game suspended.
Still need the full facts to come out.
It's unclear if the official "racially abused" him, or just identified the person to send off (for dissent presumably!) as being black.
The İstanbul Başakşehir assistant manager has been racially abused by the fourth official in the Champions league, game suspended.
Still need the full facts to come out.
It's unclear if the official "racially abused" him, or just identified the person to send off (for dissent presumably!) as being black.
Good summary that.
The conversations on this are difficult enough within one football club and language...
The İstanbul Başakşehir assistant manager has been racially abused by the fourth official in the Champions league, game suspended.
Still need the full facts to come out.
It's unclear if the official "racially abused" him, or just identified the person to send off (for dissent presumably!) as being black.
Good summary that.
The conversations on this are difficult enough within one football club and language...
Yep. I've been reading a lot on another forum about this.
Most interesting one being a Romanian speaker saying the wording was actually "that guy IN black over there".
Now that would be a horrible misunderstanding - placing views on whether you can refer to someone as being black to differentiate from other people or not to one side totally!
Re the PSG game, both the allegedly offending fourth official and the referee who sent off the Istanbul coach were Romanian.
Reasonable to assume that they would talk to each other in Romanian.
Reasonable to assume that few of the PSG or Istanbul players are fluent in Romanian
The Romanian word for the colour black is negru.....
@DevC said:
Re the PSG game, both the allegedly offending fourth official and the referee who sent off the Istanbul coach were Romanian.
Reasonable to assume that they would talk to each other in Romanian.
Reasonable to assume that few of the PSG or Istanbul players are fluent in Romanian
The Romanian word for the colour black is negru.....
If four guys each roughly the same height, roughly the same age wearing roughly the same clothes all with dark hair three of whom happen to have white skin one happens to have black skin. If you had to identify the latter, would it be regarded as racist to point him out as “the black guy over there”?
@DevC said:
If four guys each roughly the same height, roughly the same age wearing roughly the same clothes all with dark hair three of whom happen to have white skin one happens to have black skin. If you had to identify the latter, would it be regarded as racist to point him out as “the black guy over there”?
Let's not play silly buggers hypotheticals, it's pointless until what's actually been said comes out
I personally wouldn't on the face of it, but I can easily see why if you are black, in a majority white country, getting referred to as "the black guy" would come across as demeaning if they have to endure that as the go to descriptor of them for many people, whether in the specific situation you described, or not.
I would always avoid using race to describe with anyone I didn't know, especially in the public eye in times like this as it's an obvious minefield
Just seen a few clips, and the 4th official does look genuinely shocked/ almost upset that he's caused the situation, will see what comes out in the wash
Funnily enough I had that experience in a live game I saw earlier that season. The opposition were noticeably big but one guy to my mind was fecking huge. As it happened he was one of just two guys with black skin on the pitch.
I made a comment to my neighbour “look at the size of that guy”. He (bizarrely to my eyes) said which one. The only differentiator apart from size which my neighbour obviously couldn’t see was skin colour. I didn’t know what to say. I just mumbled the one over there vaguely and shuffled to a slightly more socially distanced position.
@Username said:
Also, I didn't pick it up at first, but I'm pretty sure the only other time I've seen LDF pop up on here was defending racism a while back.
I've just seen this. Now I'm not just sad, I'm fucking angry. You have NEVER seen me defending racism and I want you to renounce that remark immediately.
Not just renounce it - remove it!
If it helps I have seen you adopt a position that can, reasonably, be interpreted as supporting racists
You're talking shit but if you want to interpret my concern that racial progress is going backwards as racism, so be it. Username has said he's seen me defending racism in the past and I will state categorically that I have never previously discussed the issue in The Gasroom.
No idea if that's uploaded above, but safe to say Ilias Chair isn't a popular man, theres definitely no hint of racism about it either
CanningTownMFC said:
At this time of racial confusion I guess his will be taken completely out of context as us Scots often get tarred with the race brush but that little knee dropping c*** looks the spit of the chicken shop worker in the shop I frequent in Leith! Uncanny!
Another inbred looking c*** then mate? he must be the product of his older brother and sister! because that is one fucked up gimpy looking c***!
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jards
Well-known member
59 minutes ago
@Username said:
Also, I didn't pick it up at first, but I'm pretty sure the only other time I've seen LDF pop up on here was defending racism a while back.
I've just seen this. Now I'm not just sad, I'm fucking angry. You have NEVER seen me defending racism and I want you to renounce that remark immediately.
Not just renounce it - remove it!
If it helps I have seen you adopt a position that can, reasonably, be interpreted as supporting racists
You're talking shit but if you want to interpret my concern that racial progress is going backwards as racism, so be it. Username has said he's seen me defending racism in the past and I will state categorically that I have never previously discussed the issue in The Gasroom.
I'm sure @drcongo could look back and see where you contributed before, but either way, if you've not posted on anything around the subject apologies for saying you did, but no apologies for saying you've defended racism as I would say you're defending racism in this thread, albeit dressed in a pseudo intellectual way, whether you see yourself as that or not doesn't matter.
Only my opinion of course, it's up to others to read the thread and make the their own judgement.
You could take the time to look back yourself to see if your defamatory conjecture was well-founded - it's not. And this might give you pause for thought about whether the way you've framed this discussion and its participants in your mind might be mistaken.
My issue from the start with @LDF was that his/her original post on this thread was basically praising the Millwall fans for their actions (“The Millwall fans have dared to point out that the emperor's not wearing any clothes.”)
Believing, on the basis of historical precedence, common-sense (and Exhibit A in terms of a lot of comments on their forum) that at the root of the Millwall fans actions was underlying racist attitudes is a perfectly reasonable viewpoint (not proven of course) but one that I am happy to form an opinion of.
My initial thought at that post was that @LDF was a troll (it just seemed unnecessarily provocative - see their second post as confirmation) and I actually looked at their history expecting them to have newly signed up to have some fun.
They then made a fair stab at defending their original point although it did tend to get increasingly ‘my dad is bigger than your dad.” (I can patronise with the best of them).
Ultimately though I saw nothing there that convinced me (not that they have to of course) that their view (informed by 4 years of studying the subject) as to the motive behind the booing was in any way realistic.
(And I thought the ‘well the minute’s silence is only once a year and this is every game’ bit actually devalued the argument).
As yesterday, I ultimately think it was trolling. Quite effective and occasionally informative (see above) but trolling nonetheless.
Makes me wish for the simpler days when we just had Richie as our pet troll.
Romeo looked pretty handy tonight, if right back wasn't the only position we weren't crippled by injuries in I'd say Gaz should look at bringing him in in January.
@Wendoverman said: @EwanHoosaami I know you didn;t mean this the way it looked but
'Could they possibly be influenced by older generations that feel they are being "oppressed/ignored" by the ever expanding BAME population on their turf?'
looks a bit 'They come over here...move in next door...'
TBF @Wendoverman that was exactly how I was trying convey it, "through the eyes of those Millwall fans".
Not my personal view point, but I bet a pound to a penny that's exactly what many of them feel. @Username, "So the protesters can only protest in ways that are approved?" Is that not exactly the same that is being debated regarding the Millwall fans? Which is why I keep saying, take away the gesture and you take away the armoury that these Neanderthals crave!
I hope you will comprehend that I am not siding with these fans, merely pointing out that whilst they are entitled to their views, as is everyone in a free democratic nation, that I feel it would be a better way of diffusing their ammunition and highlighting the folly of their arguments.
@Wendoverman said: @EwanHoosaami I know you didn;t mean this the way it looked but
'Could they possibly be influenced by older generations that feel they are being "oppressed/ignored" by the ever expanding BAME population on their turf?'
looks a bit 'They come over here...move in next door...'
TBF @Wendoverman that was exactly how I was trying convey it, "through the eyes of those Millwall fans".
Not my personal view point, but I bet a pound to a penny that's exactly what many of them feel. @Username, "So the protesters can only protest in ways that are approved?" Is that not exactly the same that is being debated regarding the Millwall fans? Which is why I keep saying, take away the gesture and you take away the armoury that these Neanderthals crave!
I hope you will comprehend that I am not siding with these fans, merely pointing out that whilst they are entitled to their views, as is everyone in a free democratic nation, that I feel it would be a better way of diffusing their ammunition and highlighting the folly of their arguments.
I understand you're just posing the question, and my simple answer is no, not if their views maintain, or even make worse, a society that is provably more broken and harmful to some because of their race
Taken to the absolute extreme example at the end of the scale, you wouldn't allow a Nazi to air their views, it's just a question of how far along the scale of opinions between the absolute extremes of interning anyone who even thinks something that could be considered racist on the loony left to racial genocide on the mad far far right.
Therein lis one of the many problems of a "free speech" democracy. Just where does the line get drawn, as some would argue that in their minds it isn't an extreme view?
We do live in a society of "whataboutery" and there is usually extremes at both ends that can and will be used as a defence of a view.
A problem no doubt that will not be solved during my lifetime, maybe hopefully in yours?
@Username but surely as the gentleman uses the chicken shop in leith thus providing work and money for a gimpy looking **** from morocco how you then make the jump without knowing this man his background or his motives to suggest his comments have a negative racial motive i do know know. If you took the time to research you would know that the fact he has a shop at all would make MLK proud. Have a look at yourself.
As yesterday, I ultimately think it was trolling. Quite effective and occasionally informative (see above) but trolling nonetheless.
You think I would waste time and energy trolling? You might not think this is important but I do. I explained my initial comment but perhaps I need to make it clearer. I am not condoning the Millwall fans but whatever their reasons for booing, they exposed what a great number of people of all races had been thinking; which is that taking the knee was starting to look like a hollow gesture. I got into unnecessarily long explanations about my fear that CRT-based ideology is not the way forward because one or two people have ludicrously accused me of being a racist, thus demonstrating my point.
@Username said:
Things [racism] are always bound to get temporarily get worse just before a big break through,
I said I was through with you but there's no way I can let this go. So it's OK by you if things get worse just for a bit? Care to explain how much worse would be OK for you? Perhaps we'll tolerate more micro-aggressions for a while, maybe people losing their jobs, a few people from ethnic minorities getting beaten up or the odd bit of black v white gang warfare for a few years, a few murders here and there but don't worry it'll get better. We'll all have to put up with a bit of pain while you sit around in cozy Leith telling us that you're right. Astounding arrogance - absolutely incredible.
Things also get worse just before they get even worse.
Comments
I just thought of an illustration (reminded by @EwanHoosaami 's talk of jokes suddenly being offensive) as I love comedy. Take Bob Monkhouse (a hero of mine) and Jim Davidson. Both club comedians of the old school one starting in the 1950s and the other late 60s and 70s. Monkhouse (an old Tory I know) was a big comedy fan and student of the game...he watched all the new comedians and saw where the land lay and tailored his club act to suit...still crude and about sex...more topical, more about his career and the failings of his love life and far far less 'racial' humour and far far less punching down. Davidson saw where the land lay and just kept on being Chalkie White and talking about women treating him badly and moaned and moaned and moaned about things changing and lefties stopping him getting on the telly and 'alternative comedy being an alternative to comedy' until no-one wanted to work with him on anything but his 'adult pantos'. The world changes, you either go along with it and see where it takes you...or spend your
life railing against the shifting sands and wishing it was back in the golden olden days when everything was great. (It wasn't) Pleased to see what happened today and On that note I bid you goodnight!
The fourth official must really hate those damn Marxists.
@Johnboy for the record the patriot was fined not for pissing on a statue but the memorial to the police officer murdered outside Parliament. He had not noticed it and had no idea what it was supposed to represent. He had answered the brave call to to protect the statues (which were not under any actual threat) but...of course...admitted when asked that he had no idea what statues he was supposed to be protecting. He had prepared for this selfless act of civic duty by getting pissed as a fart.
Still need the full facts to come out.
It's unclear if the official "racially abused" him, or just identified the person to send off (for dissent presumably!) as being black.
Good summary that.
The conversations on this are difficult enough within one football club and language...
Yep. I've been reading a lot on another forum about this.
Most interesting one being a Romanian speaker saying the wording was actually "that guy IN black over there".
Now that would be a horrible misunderstanding - placing views on whether you can refer to someone as being black to differentiate from other people or not to one side totally!
The cheek of you boasting about your other forum on here @Malone
Reckon that always a record number of “apologies for the language” from @glasshalffull tonight.
Apologies
Just so I test the B material elsewhere
(Yes this is the A material before one of the forum snipe artists kicks in
)
Re the PSG game, both the allegedly offending fourth official and the referee who sent off the Istanbul coach were Romanian.
Reasonable to assume that they would talk to each other in Romanian.
Reasonable to assume that few of the PSG or Istanbul players are fluent in Romanian
The Romanian word for the colour black is negru.....
From a Romanian football journalist:
If four guys each roughly the same height, roughly the same age wearing roughly the same clothes all with dark hair three of whom happen to have white skin one happens to have black skin. If you had to identify the latter, would it be regarded as racist to point him out as “the black guy over there”?
Let's not play silly buggers hypotheticals, it's pointless until what's actually been said comes out
Ok I accept this may not be the case in Paris.
But were that to occur, would you see that as racism. I genuinely don’t know the answer.
I personally wouldn't on the face of it, but I can easily see why if you are black, in a majority white country, getting referred to as "the black guy" would come across as demeaning if they have to endure that as the go to descriptor of them for many people, whether in the specific situation you described, or not.
I would always avoid using race to describe with anyone I didn't know, especially in the public eye in times like this as it's an obvious minefield
Just seen a few clips, and the 4th official does look genuinely shocked/ almost upset that he's caused the situation, will see what comes out in the wash
Funnily enough I had that experience in a live game I saw earlier that season. The opposition were noticeably big but one guy to my mind was fecking huge. As it happened he was one of just two guys with black skin on the pitch.
I made a comment to my neighbour “look at the size of that guy”. He (bizarrely to my eyes) said which one. The only differentiator apart from size which my neighbour obviously couldn’t see was skin colour. I didn’t know what to say. I just mumbled the one over there vaguely and shuffled to a slightly more socially distanced position.
I am interpreting your taking th
No idea if that's uploaded above, but safe to say Ilias Chair isn't a popular man, theres definitely no hint of racism about it either
At this time of racial confusion I guess his will be taken completely out of context as us Scots often get tarred with the race brush but that little knee dropping c*** looks the spit of the chicken shop worker in the shop I frequent in Leith! Uncanny!
Another inbred looking c*** then mate? he must be the product of his older brother and sister! because that is one fucked up gimpy looking c***!
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jards
Well-known member
59 minutes ago
5
He's from Morocco which says it all.<<
That was my first thought when reading it as well... Isnt it obvious!
Famous for their Marxist views?
No idea what's gone on there, tried to edit a typo on the previous message and quoted you in the message before. I promise I didn't time travel
My issue from the start with @LDF was that his/her original post on this thread was basically praising the Millwall fans for their actions (“The Millwall fans have dared to point out that the emperor's not wearing any clothes.”)
Believing, on the basis of historical precedence, common-sense (and Exhibit A in terms of a lot of comments on their forum) that at the root of the Millwall fans actions was underlying racist attitudes is a perfectly reasonable viewpoint (not proven of course) but one that I am happy to form an opinion of.
My initial thought at that post was that @LDF was a troll (it just seemed unnecessarily provocative - see their second post as confirmation) and I actually looked at their history expecting them to have newly signed up to have some fun.
They then made a fair stab at defending their original point although it did tend to get increasingly ‘my dad is bigger than your dad.” (I can patronise with the best of them).
Ultimately though I saw nothing there that convinced me (not that they have to of course) that their view (informed by 4 years of studying the subject) as to the motive behind the booing was in any way realistic.
(And I thought the ‘well the minute’s silence is only once a year and this is every game’ bit actually devalued the argument).
As yesterday, I ultimately think it was trolling. Quite effective and occasionally informative (see above) but trolling nonetheless.
Makes me wish for the simpler days when we just had Richie as our pet troll.
Romeo looked pretty handy tonight, if right back wasn't the only position we weren't crippled by injuries in I'd say Gaz should look at bringing him in in January.
He was the guy who kept Jason McCarthy out of the team at Millwall. Doesn’t Jason have enough competition already?!
TBF @Wendoverman that was exactly how I was trying convey it, "through the eyes of those Millwall fans".
Not my personal view point, but I bet a pound to a penny that's exactly what many of them feel.
@Username, "So the protesters can only protest in ways that are approved?" Is that not exactly the same that is being debated regarding the Millwall fans? Which is why I keep saying, take away the gesture and you take away the armoury that these Neanderthals crave!
I hope you will comprehend that I am not siding with these fans, merely pointing out that whilst they are entitled to their views, as is everyone in a free democratic nation, that I feel it would be a better way of diffusing their ammunition and highlighting the folly of their arguments.
I understand you're just posing the question, and my simple answer is no, not if their views maintain, or even make worse, a society that is provably more broken and harmful to some because of their race
Taken to the absolute extreme example at the end of the scale, you wouldn't allow a Nazi to air their views, it's just a question of how far along the scale of opinions between the absolute extremes of interning anyone who even thinks something that could be considered racist on the loony left to racial genocide on the mad far far right.
Therein lis one of the many problems of a "free speech" democracy. Just where does the line get drawn, as some would argue that in their minds it isn't an extreme view?
We do live in a society of "whataboutery" and there is usually extremes at both ends that can and will be used as a defence of a view.
A problem no doubt that will not be solved during my lifetime, maybe hopefully in yours?
@Username but surely as the gentleman uses the chicken shop in leith thus providing work and money for a gimpy looking **** from morocco how you then make the jump without knowing this man his background or his motives to suggest his comments have a negative racial motive i do know know. If you took the time to research you would know that the fact he has a shop at all would make MLK proud. Have a look at yourself.
You think I would waste time and energy trolling? You might not think this is important but I do. I explained my initial comment but perhaps I need to make it clearer. I am not condoning the Millwall fans but whatever their reasons for booing, they exposed what a great number of people of all races had been thinking; which is that taking the knee was starting to look like a hollow gesture. I got into unnecessarily long explanations about my fear that CRT-based ideology is not the way forward because one or two people have ludicrously accused me of being a racist, thus demonstrating my point.
Things also get worse just before they get even worse.