I said I was through with you but there's no way I can let this go. So it's OK by you if things get worse just for a bit? Care to explain how much worse would be OK for you? Perhaps we'll tolerate more micro-aggressions for a while, maybe people losing their jobs, a few people from ethnic minorities getting beaten up or the odd bit of black v white gang warfare for a few years, a few murders here and there but don't worry it'll get better. We'll all have to put up with a bit of pain while you sit around telling us that you're right. Astounding arrogance - absolutely incredible.
I'm having trouble with the quotes - my last message was directed at Username who in answer to my concern that fashionable ideologies are harming racial progress said that sometimes things have to get worse before they get better.
People need to stand up to oppose hatred and that brings short term noise and opposition, am reminded of how people from players to royals talking about mental health has made it far more acceptable to discuss in public and reduced noise. Although this discussion is tetchy at best if you'd had it 30 years ago it might have been more along the lines of "racism is bad Vs f*CK those people, who cares" rather than whether a particular protest is wrong due to organiser links or hidden meanings.
Do you post on Football matters LDF? Line ups, goal predictions, financial matters?
@StrongestTeam said:
People need to stand up to oppose hatred and that brings short term noise and opposition, am reminded of how people from players to royals talking about mental health has made it far more acceptable to discuss in public and reduced noise. Although this discussion is tetchy at best if you'd had it 30 years ago it might have been more along the lines of "racism is bad Vs f*CK those people, who cares" rather than whether a particular protest is wrong due to organiser links or hidden meanings.
Do you post on Football matters LDF? Line ups, goal predictions, financial matters?
I'm glad you understand that this is not about racist v not-racist but effective ways to tackle racism.
As for why I haven't posted much in The Gasroom until Sunday: I lost my job last week and am also ill so I've got time on my hands. I rarely comment on football or financial matters as I don't feel sufficiently informed to make a worthwhile contribution but I peruse the boards fairly regularly to find out what's going on and learn from those in the know. This time, it's a subject close to my heart and I feel I can make a valid input.
@StrongestTeam said:
People need to stand up to oppose hatred and that brings short term noise and opposition, am reminded of how people from players to royals talking about mental health has made it far more acceptable to discuss in public and reduced noise. Although this discussion is tetchy at best if you'd had it 30 years ago it might have been more along the lines of "racism is bad Vs f*CK those people, who cares" rather than whether a particular protest is wrong due to organiser links or hidden meanings.
Do you post on Football matters LDF? Line ups, goal predictions, financial matters?
I'm glad you understand that this is not about racist v not-racist but effective ways to tackle racism.
I'm not certain that I do entirely but thanks, although you ask for understanding of your opinion a lot you don't seem to acknowledge at all that the players weren't actively supporting BLM, CRT or Marxism and that some fans if not all who were booing or commenting on social media may have a history of racist attitudes and behaviour and will be using the three subjects as a fairly thin cover.
@StrongestTeam said:
People need to stand up to oppose hatred and that brings short term noise and opposition, am reminded of how people from players to royals talking about mental health has made it far more acceptable to discuss in public and reduced noise. Although this discussion is tetchy at best if you'd had it 30 years ago it might have been more along the lines of "racism is bad Vs f*CK those people, who cares" rather than whether a particular protest is wrong due to organiser links or hidden meanings.
Do you post on Football matters LDF? Line ups, goal predictions, financial matters?
I'm glad you understand that this is not about racist v not-racist but effective ways to tackle racism.
I'm not certain that I do entirely but thanks, although you ask for understanding of your opinion a lot you don't seem to acknowledge at all that the players weren't actively supporting BLM, CRT or Marxism and that some fans if not all who were booing or commenting on social media may have a history of racist attitudes and behaviour and will be using the three subjects as a fairly thin cover.
It may be a leap but many will have looked at the booing , perhaps as it was Millwall, and assumed it was largely if not wholly racism rather than protesting a movement that the players don't endorse.
Then when Farage/UKIP types and those down trodden defenders of real people and decency at the erm..mail and sun leap in with support for those booing "Boo like Millwall" then it becomes totally political and to cave in to requests to stop or alter the players chosen method of protest becomes hugely insulting to them. That's why people on here will have accused some of defending racism regardless of the intention.
@StrongestTeam said:
It may be a leap but many will have looked at the booing , perhaps as it was Millwall, and assumed it was largely if not wholly racism rather than protesting a movement that the players don't endorse.
Then when Farage/UKIP types and those down trodden defenders of real people and decency at the erm..mail and sun leap in with support for those booing "Boo like Millwall" then it becomes totally political and to cave in to requests to stop or alter the players chosen method of protest becomes hugely insulting to them. That's why people on here will have accused some of defending racism regardless of the intention.
Perfectly summed up.
I would go further and say that it is the exact intention of many.
You can't just be overtly racist anymore, so the ones with the mental capacity to do so, find a few acceptable avenues to shut down anti-racism progress, and the rest follow.
@ldf Easy to say how much worse can it get when for many people, it already is"worse", that's the point, they're fed up of waiting for pathetic incremental progress and lip service campaigns. Why should they wait until the people they're protesting against are ready to change?
Do you stop fighting against racism because doing so will anger the racists into violence?
Just look through the Millwall forum and say that those are the views that need defending here, and that it isn't a thinly veiled racist agenda.
Yes some Millwall fans are great, they were appalled at the behaviour of the others - but they know the true intentions, one even came on here and said so.
I am still puzzled @LDF. You must have been very keen to join Gasroom 2.0 when you did - the very first day that it appeared on line in February 2015 - and, presumably therefore, you had previously been aware of, if not an anonymous contributor to, the original Gasroom. You say that you “peruse the boards fairly regularly”. Regularly perhaps but less than one visit a month on average is extremely infrequently. You say you don’t feel sufficiently informed to be able to make a worthwhile contribution [on, for example, the subject of football and football finance]. The only information you need to make a contribution to the Gasroom is a basic familiarity with the players through watching at least the occasional game and the opinions which you will have formed as a result. You are extremely articulate and, although the discrimination debate doesn’t lend itself very happily to humour, your surprised ‘Suzie’ reaction to a “shades of grey” comment demonstrated that you can be amusing as well as deadly serious.
Finally, I am sorry to hear that you have recently lost your job. Being ill as well doesn’t help of course and I hope there are better days ahead.
@micra said:
I am still puzzled @LDF. You must have been very keen to join Gasroom 2.0 when you did - the very first day that it appeared on line in February 2015 - and, presumably therefore, you had previously been aware of, if not an anonymous contributor to, the original Gasroom. You say that you “peruse the boards fairly regularly”. Regularly perhaps but less than one visit a month on average is extremely infrequently. You say you don’t feel sufficiently informed to be able to make a worthwhile contribution [on, for example, the subject of football and football finance]. The only information you need to make a contribution to the Gasroom is a basic familiarity with the players through watching at least the occasional game and the opinions which you will have formed as a result. You are extremely articulate and, although the discrimination debate doesn’t lend itself very happily to humour, your surprised ‘Suzie’ reaction to a “shades of grey” comment demonstrated that you can be amusing as well as deadly serious.
Finally, I am sorry to hear that you have recently lost your job. Being ill as well doesn’t help of course and I hope there are better days ahead.
Thanks Micra. Apologies for not visiting The Gasroom more often or feeling confident enough to make comments.
Do you stop fighting against racism because doing so will anger the racists into violence?
It's not angering racists that I'm worried about - it's angering people that aren't
It's a valid worry
What about people that don't see themselves as racist but are? Which is the vast majority of racists.
You'd presumably like not to anger them either if you want to win them round.
Out of interest, how did you become expert in identifying who is and who is not racist? Most people, including but not limited to those older and more experienced than you, hesitate to make firm judgements about the mindset of other people unless they know them very well but you seem to have it completely nailed to the extent that you know both what it is that is behind their words and actions and the precise extent of their intellectual capacity.
Do you stop fighting against racism because doing so will anger the racists into violence?
It's not angering racists that I'm worried about - it's angering people that aren't
It's a valid worry
What about people that don't see themselves as racist but are? Which is the vast majority of racists.
Racist by YOUR definition. We're going round in circles so unless either of us have some new and profound inspiration, I suggest we call it a day.
Yes I know.
Last point then.
Do we both accept that our society still has race equality issues? And that racism is still an issue that needs improvement and change? It's just a question of how, how much and how fast?
If that's agreed
Do you think that Millwall FC fans are likely to be the bastion of moral values and racial equality in terms of genuinely wanting improvement and should be allowed to shape the agenda? Or is it more likely that they're actually a fairly extreme right example that's been amplified in the media and people who don't fully appreciate that have tagged onto because of other genuine issues with BLM?
The way things are framed in the media's now, it is often a case of picking sides, that's exactly how the millwall fans see it -they're celebrating "defeating the knee", and I know which side I'm on.
Do you stop fighting against racism because doing so will anger the racists into violence?
It's not angering racists that I'm worried about - it's angering people that aren't
It's a valid worry
What about people that don't see themselves as racist but are? Which is the vast majority of racists.
You'd presumably like not to anger them either if you want to win them round.
Out of interest, how did you become expert in identifying who is and who is not racist? Most people, including but not limited to those older and more experienced than you, hesitate to make firm judgements about the mindset of other people unless they know them very well but you seem to have it completely nailed to the extent that you know both what it is that is behind their words and actions and the precise extent of their intellectual capacity.
Didn't say that I would be the judge.
Just have a read through their forum and tell me in good faith that's it's not obvious that some of them aren't racially motivated in their opposition to BLM.
When a lot of their arguments are based in provable falsehoods and tenuous smears, that's another clue into reading between the lines of actual intention, as I said, racism isn't the same or as obvious as it used to be because the racists would lose their jobs/ freedom immediately now. Likely a generational thing in just learning to see straight through the bull shit because that is the form of racism which we've grown up with, snide and implied, not overt and aggressive.
Anyway, I think you know this, you just like playing silly buggers.
That will be my last post in here, football tonight
Do you stop fighting against racism because doing so will anger the racists into violence?
It's not angering racists that I'm worried about - it's angering people that aren't
It's a valid worry
What about people that don't see themselves as racist but are? Which is the vast majority of racists.
Racist by YOUR definition. We're going round in circles so unless either of us have some new and profound inspiration, I suggest we call it a day.
Yes I know.
Last point then.
Do we both accept that our society still has race equality issues? And that racism is still an issue that needs improvement and change? It's just a question of how, how much and how fast?
If that's agreed
Do you think that Millwall FC fans are likely to be the bastion of moral values and racial equality in terms of genuinely wanting improvement and should be allowed to shape the agenda? Or is it more likely that they're actually a fairly extreme right example that's been amplified in the media and people who don't fully appreciate that have tagged onto because of other genuine issues with BLM?
The way things are framed in the media's now, it is often a case of picking sides, that's exactly how the millwall fans see it -they're celebrating "defeating the knee", and I know which side I'm on.
1) yes 2) yes 3) yes
The next paragraph is you stating your opinion on a non-binary subject, cunningly disguised as questions.
I'm glad you know which side you're on, faith can move mountains. I genuinely hope I'm wrong.
Do you stop fighting against racism because doing so will anger the racists into violence?
It's not angering racists that I'm worried about - it's angering people that aren't
It's a valid worry
What about people that don't see themselves as racist but are? Which is the vast majority of racists.
Racist by YOUR definition. We're going round in circles so unless either of us have some new and profound inspiration, I suggest we call it a day.
Yes I know.
Last point then.
Do we both accept that our society still has race equality issues? And that racism is still an issue that needs improvement and change? It's just a question of how, how much and how fast?
If that's agreed
Do you think that Millwall FC fans are likely to be the bastion of moral values and racial equality in terms of genuinely wanting improvement and should be allowed to shape the agenda? Or is it more likely that they're actually a fairly extreme right example that's been amplified in the media and people who don't fully appreciate that have tagged onto because of other genuine issues with BLM?
The way things are framed in the media's now, it is often a case of picking sides, that's exactly how the millwall fans see it -they're celebrating "defeating the knee", and I know which side I'm on.
1) yes 2) yes 3) yes
The next paragraph is you stating your opinion on a non-binary subject, cunningly disguised as questions.
I'm glad you know which side you're on, faith can move mountains. I genuinely hope I'm wrong.
Not my last post then... Just the question
Do you think Millwall fans should be allowed to shape a race equality protest?
In my opinion they're the exact type of group who should be dictated to, because based on their past and present behaviours they are an acute part of the racism problem.
@Username said:
In my opinion they're the exact type of group who should be dictated to, because based on their past and present behaviours they are an acute part of the racism problem.
Fuck it, I will say something else. Demonizing groups and dictating are not a part of my mindset!
@Username said:
In my opinion they're the exact type of group who should be dictated to, because based on their past and present behaviours they are an acute part of the racism problem.
Fuck it, I will say something else. Demonizing groups and dictating are not a part of my mindset!
I'll happily demonise groups of racists, maybe that's our difference.
If you don't think there's an element of racism in the hardcore Millwall support, you clearly don't think there's many if any racists in this country.
@Username said:
In my opinion they're the exact type of group who should be dictated to, because based on their past and present behaviours they are an acute part of the racism problem.
Fuck it, I will say something else. Demonizing groups and dictating are not a part of my mindset!
I'll happily demonise groups of racists, maybe that's our difference.
If you don't think there's an element of racism in the hardcore Millwall support, you clearly don't think there's many if any racists in this country.
You've made it abundantly clear that you will happily demonize anyone that doesn't appear to think like you.
@Username said:
In my opinion they're the exact type of group who should be dictated to, because based on their past and present behaviours they are an acute part of the racism problem.
Fuck it, I will say something else. Demonizing groups and dictating are not a part of my mindset!
I'll happily demonise groups of racists, maybe that's our difference.
If you don't think there's an element of racism in the hardcore Millwall support, you clearly don't think there's many if any racists in this country.
It's good, even necessary, to demonise bad people. I know who the bad people are.
Does this sound at all questionable to you? Any potential problems that you can foresee?
@Username said:
In my opinion they're the exact type of group who should be dictated to, because based on their past and present behaviours they are an acute part of the racism problem.
Fuck it, I will say something else. Demonizing groups and dictating are not a part of my mindset!
I'll happily demonise groups of racists, maybe that's our difference.
If you don't think there's an element of racism in the hardcore Millwall support, you clearly don't think there's many if any racists in this country.
It's good, even necessary, to demonise bad people. I know who the bad people are.
Does this sound at all questionable to you? Any potential problems that you can foresee?
Ha ha, nailed it!
I fear Username is getting entangled in my pseudo-intellectual web of reason.
@Username said:
In my opinion they're the exact type of group who should be dictated to, because based on their past and present behaviours they are an acute part of the racism problem.
Fuck it, I will say something else. Demonizing groups and dictating are not a part of my mindset!
I'll happily demonise groups of racists, maybe that's our difference.
If you don't think there's an element of racism in the hardcore Millwall support, you clearly don't think there's many if any racists in this country.
It's good, even necessary, to demonise bad people. I know who the bad people are.
Does this sound at all questionable to you? Any potential problems that you can foresee?
You're honestly (albeit slyly) equating demonising people with racist views and actions, with the demonising of Jews by Nazis based on their ethnicity/ religion, (or other racial genocides)
Ridiculous
There's a vast difference between demonising people with damaging views and demonising people based on race, equating the two flippantly tells me enough about you two.
@Username said:
In my opinion they're the exact type of group who should be dictated to, because based on their past and present behaviours they are an acute part of the racism problem.
Fuck it, I will say something else. Demonizing groups and dictating are not a part of my mindset!
I'll happily demonise groups of racists, maybe that's our difference.
If you don't think there's an element of racism in the hardcore Millwall support, you clearly don't think there's many if any racists in this country.
It's good, even necessary, to demonise bad people. I know who the bad people are.
Does this sound at all questionable to you? Any potential problems that you can foresee?
You're honestly (albeit slyly) equating demonising people with racist views and actions, with the demonising of Jews by Nazis based on their ethnicity/ religion
Ridiculous
There's a vast difference between demonising people with damaging views and demonising people based on race, equating the two flippantly tells me enough about you two.
You've already explained that you consider vast numbers of people that don't even know they're racist to be racists because you've decided they are. Now you're saying you'll happily demonize them. The Fascist is strong with this one!
@Username said:
In my opinion they're the exact type of group who should be dictated to, because based on their past and present behaviours they are an acute part of the racism problem.
Fuck it, I will say something else. Demonizing groups and dictating are not a part of my mindset!
I'll happily demonise groups of racists, maybe that's our difference.
If you don't think there's an element of racism in the hardcore Millwall support, you clearly don't think there's many if any racists in this country.
It's good, even necessary, to demonise bad people. I know who the bad people are.
Does this sound at all questionable to you? Any potential problems that you can foresee?
You're honestly (albeit slyly) equating demonising people with racist views and actions, with the demonising of Jews by Nazis based on their ethnicity/ religion
Ridiculous
There's a vast difference between demonising people with damaging views and demonising people based on race, equating the two flippantly tells me enough about you two.
You've already explained that you consider vast numbers of people that don't even know they're racist to be racists because you've decided they are. Now you're saying you'll happily demonize them. Truly, the Fascist is strong with this one!
That's fine then, we'll just wait for the racists to self identify and change rather than challenge them.
It's not controversial to say that most racists don't know they're racist, they know no better.
Comments
I said I was through with you but there's no way I can let this go. So it's OK by you if things get worse just for a bit? Care to explain how much worse would be OK for you? Perhaps we'll tolerate more micro-aggressions for a while, maybe people losing their jobs, a few people from ethnic minorities getting beaten up or the odd bit of black v white gang warfare for a few years, a few murders here and there but don't worry it'll get better. We'll all have to put up with a bit of pain while you sit around telling us that you're right. Astounding arrogance - absolutely incredible.
I'm having trouble with the quotes - my last message was directed at Username who in answer to my concern that fashionable ideologies are harming racial progress said that sometimes things have to get worse before they get better.
People need to stand up to oppose hatred and that brings short term noise and opposition, am reminded of how people from players to royals talking about mental health has made it far more acceptable to discuss in public and reduced noise. Although this discussion is tetchy at best if you'd had it 30 years ago it might have been more along the lines of "racism is bad Vs f*CK those people, who cares" rather than whether a particular protest is wrong due to organiser links or hidden meanings.
Do you post on Football matters LDF? Line ups, goal predictions, financial matters?
I'm glad you understand that this is not about racist v not-racist but effective ways to tackle racism.
As for why I haven't posted much in The Gasroom until Sunday: I lost my job last week and am also ill so I've got time on my hands. I rarely comment on football or financial matters as I don't feel sufficiently informed to make a worthwhile contribution but I peruse the boards fairly regularly to find out what's going on and learn from those in the know. This time, it's a subject close to my heart and I feel I can make a valid input.
I'm not certain that I do entirely but thanks, although you ask for understanding of your opinion a lot you don't seem to acknowledge at all that the players weren't actively supporting BLM, CRT or Marxism and that some fans if not all who were booing or commenting on social media may have a history of racist attitudes and behaviour and will be using the three subjects as a fairly thin cover.
I absolutely understand that,
It may be a leap but many will have looked at the booing , perhaps as it was Millwall, and assumed it was largely if not wholly racism rather than protesting a movement that the players don't endorse.
Then when Farage/UKIP types and those down trodden defenders of real people and decency at the erm..mail and sun leap in with support for those booing "Boo like Millwall" then it becomes totally political and to cave in to requests to stop or alter the players chosen method of protest becomes hugely insulting to them. That's why people on here will have accused some of defending racism regardless of the intention.
Perfectly summed up.
I would go further and say that it is the exact intention of many.
You can't just be overtly racist anymore, so the ones with the mental capacity to do so, find a few acceptable avenues to shut down anti-racism progress, and the rest follow.
@ldf Easy to say how much worse can it get when for many people, it already is"worse", that's the point, they're fed up of waiting for pathetic incremental progress and lip service campaigns. Why should they wait until the people they're protesting against are ready to change?
Do you stop fighting against racism because doing so will anger the racists into violence?
Just look through the Millwall forum and say that those are the views that need defending here, and that it isn't a thinly veiled racist agenda.
Yes some Millwall fans are great, they were appalled at the behaviour of the others - but they know the true intentions, one even came on here and said so.
I am still puzzled @LDF. You must have been very keen to join Gasroom 2.0 when you did - the very first day that it appeared on line in February 2015 - and, presumably therefore, you had previously been aware of, if not an anonymous contributor to, the original Gasroom. You say that you “peruse the boards fairly regularly”. Regularly perhaps but less than one visit a month on average is extremely infrequently. You say you don’t feel sufficiently informed to be able to make a worthwhile contribution [on, for example, the subject of football and football finance]. The only information you need to make a contribution to the Gasroom is a basic familiarity with the players through watching at least the occasional game and the opinions which you will have formed as a result. You are extremely articulate and, although the discrimination debate doesn’t lend itself very happily to humour, your surprised ‘Suzie’ reaction to a “shades of grey” comment demonstrated that you can be amusing as well as deadly serious.
Finally, I am sorry to hear that you have recently lost your job. Being ill as well doesn’t help of course and I hope there are better days ahead.
It's not angering racists that I'm worried about - it's angering people that aren't
Thanks Micra. Apologies for not visiting The Gasroom more often or feeling confident enough to make comments.
It's a valid worry
What about people that don't see themselves as racist but are? Which is the vast majority of racists.
Racist by YOUR definition. We're going round in circles so unless either of us have some new and profound inspiration, I suggest we call it a day.
You'd presumably like not to anger them either if you want to win them round.
Out of interest, how did you become expert in identifying who is and who is not racist? Most people, including but not limited to those older and more experienced than you, hesitate to make firm judgements about the mindset of other people unless they know them very well but you seem to have it completely nailed to the extent that you know both what it is that is behind their words and actions and the precise extent of their intellectual capacity.
Yes I know.
Last point then.
Do we both accept that our society still has race equality issues? And that racism is still an issue that needs improvement and change? It's just a question of how, how much and how fast?
If that's agreed
Do you think that Millwall FC fans are likely to be the bastion of moral values and racial equality in terms of genuinely wanting improvement and should be allowed to shape the agenda? Or is it more likely that they're actually a fairly extreme right example that's been amplified in the media and people who don't fully appreciate that have tagged onto because of other genuine issues with BLM?
The way things are framed in the media's now, it is often a case of picking sides, that's exactly how the millwall fans see it -they're celebrating "defeating the knee", and I know which side I'm on.
Didn't say that I would be the judge.
Just have a read through their forum and tell me in good faith that's it's not obvious that some of them aren't racially motivated in their opposition to BLM.
When a lot of their arguments are based in provable falsehoods and tenuous smears, that's another clue into reading between the lines of actual intention, as I said, racism isn't the same or as obvious as it used to be because the racists would lose their jobs/ freedom immediately now. Likely a generational thing in just learning to see straight through the bull shit because that is the form of racism which we've grown up with, snide and implied, not overt and aggressive.
Anyway, I think you know this, you just like playing silly buggers.
That will be my last post in here, football tonight
1) yes 2) yes 3) yes
The next paragraph is you stating your opinion on a non-binary subject, cunningly disguised as questions.
I'm glad you know which side you're on, faith can move mountains. I genuinely hope I'm wrong.
Not my last post then... Just the question
Do you think Millwall fans should be allowed to shape a race equality protest?
In my opinion they're the exact type of group who should be dictated to, because based on their past and present behaviours they are an acute part of the racism problem.
Whatever...
Fuck it, I will say something else. Demonizing groups and dictating are not a part of my mindset!
I'll happily demonise groups of racists, maybe that's our difference.
If you don't think there's an element of racism in the hardcore Millwall support, you clearly don't think there's many if any racists in this country.
You've made it abundantly clear that you will happily demonize anyone that doesn't appear to think like you.
It's good, even necessary, to demonise bad people. I know who the bad people are.
Does this sound at all questionable to you? Any potential problems that you can foresee?
Ha ha, nailed it!
I fear Username is getting entangled in my pseudo-intellectual web of reason.
You're honestly (albeit slyly) equating demonising people with racist views and actions, with the demonising of Jews by Nazis based on their ethnicity/ religion, (or other racial genocides)
Ridiculous
There's a vast difference between demonising people with damaging views and demonising people based on race, equating the two flippantly tells me enough about you two.
You've already explained that you consider vast numbers of people that don't even know they're racist to be racists because you've decided they are. Now you're saying you'll happily demonize them. The Fascist is strong with this one!
That's fine then, we'll just wait for the racists to self identify and change rather than challenge them.
It's not controversial to say that most racists don't know they're racist, they know no better.
@Username blocking posters answers no questions and offers no solutions...but it makes life a lot nicer. As you say football tonight.
Do you not believe there are racists who don't know they're racist @LDF?