@Wendoverman said: @Username blocking posters answers no questions and offers no solutions...but it makes life a lot nicer. As you say football tonight.
I try and make a point of always being able to see everyone's posts/ opinions- very easy to fall into echo chambers of agreement but I'm close ?
It's not controversial to say that most racists don't know they're racist, they know no better.
Does your delusion know no bounds? In what twisted world is that not a controversial statement? To follow it up with admitting you'll happily demonize those who 'know no better' beggars belief.
Not wanting speculation on a forum is a good effort and we should acknowledge not all Millwall fans are racists and booers were a small minority but not seemingly caring if players were made to feel unwelcome by their protests and calls for acceptance being booed yet claiming facism because maybe a few people might get typecast unfairly is a stretch.
@Wendoverman said: @Username blocking posters answers no questions and offers no solutions...but it makes life a lot nicer. As you say football tonight.
I try and make a point of always being able to see everyone's posts/ opinions- very easy to fall into echo chambers of agreement but I'm close ?
Never blocked anyone before on here or the previous Gasroom for the same reasons. This thread changed all that. Life's too short.
@drcongo said:
Do you not believe there are racists who don't know they're racist @LDF?
I believe in the outmoded schools of thought that underpin Western civilization: Greek Philosophy, Christianity, Enlightenment Reason, Humanism, Liberalism and Social Democracy. I abhor totalitarianism in any form and presuming to know another's mind is a very slippery slope.
@drcongo said:
Do you not believe there are racists who don't know they're racist @LDF?
I believe in the outmoded schools of thought that underpin Western civilization: Greek Philosophy, Christianity, Enlightenment Reason, Humanism, Liberalism and Social Democracy. I abhor totalitarianism in any form and presuming to know another's mind is a very slippery slope.
Interesting. Would you class yourself as an identitarian?
@StrongestTeam said:
Not wanting speculation on a forum is a good effort and we should acknowledge not all Millwall fans are racists and booers were a small minority but not seemingly caring if players were made to feel unwelcome by their protests and calls for acceptance being booed yet claiming facism because maybe a few people might get typecast unfairly is a stretch.
I'm sorry but Username has told us that he has the right to determine who is and isn't a racist - not just among Millwall fans but in society at large. He went on to say he happily demonizes racists. It's an absolute textbook case of a certain narrow-minded, dogmatic thought process currently insidious in Britain and America that looks frighteningly like the roots of Fascism. I joined this thread as I could see this mode of thinking being expressed and wanted to challenge it. I apologise for sounding combative but I'm particularly incensed that he tried to support his position by pretending he'd read previous comments by me defending racism. Sincere apologies if anyone feels caught in the crossfire.
@drcongo said:
Do you not believe there are racists who don't know they're racist @LDF?
I believe in the outmoded schools of thought that underpin Western civilization: Greek Philosophy, Christianity, Enlightenment Reason, Humanism, Liberalism and Social Democracy. I abhor totalitarianism in any form and presuming to know another's mind is a very slippery slope.
Interesting. Would you class yourself as an identitarian?
If you have to ask that question, you either haven't read my posts or I'm very bad at making myself clear. The answer is no!
@chairboyscentral said:
This thread is beginning to make my head hurt.
Totally agree. My takings from the last few pages are:-
It's an incredibly complex issue
Racists don't always know they are racists
@Username is protesting his points in a way that might make him a subject in point two
On a slight tangent an interview question from yesterday was simply 'Do you believe in diversity in the workplace?' Is there an actual answer that question if, like me, you've never really counted up the different types of people you work with in those terms?
@LDF said:
If you have to ask that question, you either haven't read my posts or I'm very bad at making myself clear. The answer is no!
Phew! It's probably my fault here, not yours, but I am really struggling to understand how one would fight racism by appeasing racists.
I'm certainly not one for appeasing racists. The conversation revolves around who counts as racist. Username is of the opinion that he can determine the answer on his terms and treat those he's maligned accordingly. I take a humbler approach.
On a slight tangent an interview question from yesterday was simply 'Do you believe in diversity in the workplace?' Is there an actual answer that question if, like me, you've never really counted up the different types of people you work with in those terms?
The answer of course should be yes...but in actuality most workplaces do not reflect this. Companies are being asked to address it to see if they can improve diversity...(which reads as 'have it imposed on them' to some ). Most of my working life
was in a white male environment, it has changed now via not only positive efforts by the management over the years to promote diversity but also because the equality of opportunity and recognition of ability has increased across the spectrum to some extent in that time. It's a good thing in the workplace in my opinion. I haven't lost my job to a cheaper foreigner/quota monority or been a victim of the PC police so far.
Strictly speaking the conversation revolves around Millwall fans booing their own players for taking the knee as a gesture against racism, as evidenced in the thread title.
It also so happens that there are a huge number of provably racist booers among the Millwall fans who booed their players for taking the knee against racism. They're provably racist because they're showing themselves as such all over Twitter and the Millwall forum, they're not pretending to not be racist.
When they're telling you they're racist, it's hardly a stretch to believe them. I find it a bigger mental leap to pretend that they're not, and to stand up for their right to oppose the right of their players to take a stand against racism.
As is always the case with these discussions, it always comes back to Popper's paradox - I'm sure you're familiar given your interest in philosophy. The first line of the Wikipedia page reads "The paradox of tolerance states that if a society is tolerant without limit, its ability to be tolerant is eventually seized or destroyed by the intolerant."
My point of view here is that taking the knee as a gesture of standing up to racism is a vastly more noble deed than booing it. Taking the knee doesn't impinge on the freedoms of anyone else, booing it does. Being black doesn't, being racist does. Which side here is the intolerant?
It's not controversial to say that most racists don't know they're racist, they know no better.
Does your delusion know no bounds? In what twisted world is that not a controversial statement? To follow it up with admitting you'll happily demonize those who 'know no better' beggars belief.
Not wanting speculation on a forum is a good effort and we should acknowledge not all Millwall fans are racists and booers were a small minority but not seemingly caring if players were made to feel unwelcome by their protests and calls for acceptance being booed yet claiming facism because maybe a few people might get typecast unfairly is a stretch.
I'm sorry but Username has told us that he has the right to determine who is and isn't a racist - not just among Millwall fans but in society at large. He went on to say he happily demonizes racists. It's an absolute textbook case of a certain narrow-minded, dogmatic thought process currently insidious in Britain and America that looks frighteningly like the roots of Fascism. I joined this thread as I could see this mode of thinking being expressed and wanted to challenge it. I apologise for sounding combative but I'm particularly incensed that he tried to support his position by pretending he'd read previous comments by me defending racism. Sincere apologies if anyone feels caught in the crossfire.
Nowhere have I said that I should be the ones making the decision for society. That doesn't mean I can't make a decision for myself, I'm just a nobody with no power. I accept it should be a democratic decision where the line is
What I have said is that racists will not identify themselves, so it's down to society to root them out.
I support any opinions that don't include oppression of others on the basis of things that are out of their control.
Maybe, just maybe the people saying and doing actual racist and fascist things are the real fascist threat, not the people fighting against them?
You are an enabler of racists, and I think you know that and are having a bit of a chuckle at the time you've wasted of others on here. (In my opinion in case you try and make out I'm
Pretending I'm the govt authority)
@drcongo said:
Strictly speaking the conversation revolves around Millwall fans booing their own players for taking the knee as a gesture against racism, as evidenced in the thread title.
It also so happens that there are a huge number of provably racist booers among the Millwall fans who booed their players for taking the knee against racism. They're provably racist because they're showing themselves as such all over Twitter and the Millwall forum, they're not pretending to not be racist.
When they're telling you they're racist, it's hardly a stretch to believe them. I find it a bigger mental leap to pretend that they're not, and to stand up for their right to oppose the right of their players to take a stand against racism.
As is always the case with these discussions, it always comes back to Popper's paradox - I'm sure you're familiar given your interest in philosophy. The first line of the Wikipedia page reads "The paradox of tolerance states that if a society is tolerant without limit, its ability to be tolerant is eventually seized or destroyed by the intolerant."
My point of view here is that taking the knee as a gesture of standing up to racism is a vastly more noble deed than booing it. Taking the knee doesn't impinge on the freedoms of anyone else, booing it does. Being black doesn't, being racist does. Which side here is the intolerant?
As yesterday, I ultimately think it was trolling. Quite effective and occasionally informative (see above) but trolling nonetheless.
You think I would waste time and energy trolling? You might not think this is important but I do. I explained my initial comment but perhaps I need to make it clearer. I am not condoning the Millwall fans but whatever their reasons for booing, they exposed what a great number of people of all races had been thinking; which is that taking the knee was starting to look like a hollow gesture. I got into unnecessarily long explanations about my fear that CRT-based ideology is not the way forward because one or two people have ludicrously accused me of being a racist, thus demonstrating my point.
I probably do owe you an apology for the trolling identification and for my inference that you were supportive of what I still perceive as a racist act. So sorry.
And sorry too to hear that you’ve lost your job. Never good so I wish you the best.
There is no obligation to regularly read or post on here but please don’t be put off on commenting on subjects you don’t feel qualified to comment on - this site would be devoid of any comment if the rest of us started doing that.
I still struggle with the tone of your original post - and even more the follow-up one. Even now having learnt more about you through your posts it still reads to me as celebrating an action that most(?) people saw as racist. Even if you are right, that is still a strange place to be.
You also argue that the gesture has run it’s course and clearly believe it should end. Fine, but there are a great many people, including those who do take the knee, who appear to think there is value in continuing and I’m not quite sure where you have said that their view isn’t valid (I may have missed it).
As yesterday, I ultimately think it was trolling. Quite effective and occasionally informative (see above) but trolling nonetheless.
You think I would waste time and energy trolling? You might not think this is important but I do. I explained my initial comment but perhaps I need to make it clearer. I am not condoning the Millwall fans but whatever their reasons for booing, they exposed what a great number of people of all races had been thinking; which is that taking the knee was starting to look like a hollow gesture. I got into unnecessarily long explanations about my fear that CRT-based ideology is not the way forward because one or two people have ludicrously accused me of being a racist, thus demonstrating my point.
I probably do owe you an apology for the trolling identification and for my inference that you were supportive of what I still perceive as a racist act. So sorry.
And sorry too to hear that you’ve lost your job. Never good so I wish you the best.
There is no obligation to regularly read or post on here but please don’t be put off on commenting on subjects you don’t feel qualified to comment on - this site would be devoid of any comment if the rest of us started doing that.
I still struggle with the tone of your original post - and even more the follow-up one. Even now having learnt more about you through your posts it still reads to me as celebrating an action that most(?) people saw as racist. Even if you are right, that is still a strange place to be.
You also argue that the gesture has run it’s course and clearly believe it should end. Fine, but there are a great many people, including those who do take the knee, who appear to think there is value in continuing and I’m not quite sure where you have said that their view isn’t valid (I may have missed it).
"there are a great many people, including those who do take the knee, who appear to think there is value in continuing and I’m not quite sure where you have said that their view isn’t valid" - I certainly haven't said their view's not valid.
Comments
I try and make a point of always being able to see everyone's posts/ opinions- very easy to fall into echo chambers of agreement but I'm close ?
Does your delusion know no bounds? In what twisted world is that not a controversial statement? To follow it up with admitting you'll happily demonize those who 'know no better' beggars belief.
Not wanting speculation on a forum is a good effort and we should acknowledge not all Millwall fans are racists and booers were a small minority but not seemingly caring if players were made to feel unwelcome by their protests and calls for acceptance being booed yet claiming facism because maybe a few people might get typecast unfairly is a stretch.
This thread is beginning to make my head hurt.
Never blocked anyone before on here or the previous Gasroom for the same reasons. This thread changed all that. Life's too short.
I believe in the outmoded schools of thought that underpin Western civilization: Greek Philosophy, Christianity, Enlightenment Reason, Humanism, Liberalism and Social Democracy. I abhor totalitarianism in any form and presuming to know another's mind is a very slippery slope.
Interesting. Would you class yourself as an identitarian?
I'm sorry but Username has told us that he has the right to determine who is and isn't a racist - not just among Millwall fans but in society at large. He went on to say he happily demonizes racists. It's an absolute textbook case of a certain narrow-minded, dogmatic thought process currently insidious in Britain and America that looks frighteningly like the roots of Fascism. I joined this thread as I could see this mode of thinking being expressed and wanted to challenge it. I apologise for sounding combative but I'm particularly incensed that he tried to support his position by pretending he'd read previous comments by me defending racism. Sincere apologies if anyone feels caught in the crossfire.
If you have to ask that question, you either haven't read my posts or I'm very bad at making myself clear. The answer is no!
Totally agree. My takings from the last few pages are:-
It's an incredibly complex issue
Racists don't always know they are racists
@Username is protesting his points in a way that might make him a subject in point two
On a slight tangent an interview question from yesterday was simply 'Do you believe in diversity in the workplace?' Is there an actual answer that question if, like me, you've never really counted up the different types of people you work with in those terms?
Phew! It's probably my fault here, not yours, but I am really struggling to understand how one would fight racism by appeasing racists.
I'm certainly not one for appeasing racists. The conversation revolves around who counts as racist. Username is of the opinion that he can determine the answer on his terms and treat those he's maligned accordingly. I take a humbler approach.
The answer of course should be yes...but in actuality most workplaces do not reflect this. Companies are being asked to address it to see if they can improve diversity...(which reads as 'have it imposed on them' to some
). Most of my working life
was in a white male environment, it has changed now via not only positive efforts by the management over the years to promote diversity but also because the equality of opportunity and recognition of ability has increased across the spectrum to some extent in that time. It's a good thing in the workplace in my opinion. I haven't lost my job to a cheaper foreigner/quota monority or been a victim of the PC police so far.
Whether someone is ‘a racist’ or not seems a little irrelevant to me, its whether they do things that are racist that matters.
Amen!
Strictly speaking the conversation revolves around Millwall fans booing their own players for taking the knee as a gesture against racism, as evidenced in the thread title.
It also so happens that there are a huge number of provably racist booers among the Millwall fans who booed their players for taking the knee against racism. They're provably racist because they're showing themselves as such all over Twitter and the Millwall forum, they're not pretending to not be racist.
When they're telling you they're racist, it's hardly a stretch to believe them. I find it a bigger mental leap to pretend that they're not, and to stand up for their right to oppose the right of their players to take a stand against racism.
As is always the case with these discussions, it always comes back to Popper's paradox - I'm sure you're familiar given your interest in philosophy. The first line of the Wikipedia page reads "The paradox of tolerance states that if a society is tolerant without limit, its ability to be tolerant is eventually seized or destroyed by the intolerant."
My point of view here is that taking the knee as a gesture of standing up to racism is a vastly more noble deed than booing it. Taking the knee doesn't impinge on the freedoms of anyone else, booing it does. Being black doesn't, being racist does. Which side here is the intolerant?
Ha ha, the wheel turns full circle. I'm more or less on board with that. Ooh, Popper's Paradox - we could have weeks of fun with that
)
Nowhere have I said that I should be the ones making the decision for society. That doesn't mean I can't make a decision for myself, I'm just a nobody with no power. I accept it should be a democratic decision where the line is
What I have said is that racists will not identify themselves, so it's down to society to root them out.
I support any opinions that don't include oppression of others on the basis of things that are out of their control.
Maybe, just maybe the people saying and doing actual racist and fascist things are the real fascist threat, not the people fighting against them?
You are an enabler of racists, and I think you know that and are having a bit of a chuckle at the time you've wasted of others on here. (In my opinion in case you try and make out I'm
Pretending I'm the govt authority)
Then forgive me, but why do all of your other posts in this thread appear to be in direct opposition of what I wrote in this post?
I know that one sir! Me! Me! Sir! Sir!
I'd prefer to think of myself as an enabler of love, even those I disagree with. Even you!
Don't start me off again!
Superb
I probably do owe you an apology for the trolling identification and for my inference that you were supportive of what I still perceive as a racist act. So sorry.
And sorry too to hear that you’ve lost your job. Never good so I wish you the best.
There is no obligation to regularly read or post on here but please don’t be put off on commenting on subjects you don’t feel qualified to comment on - this site would be devoid of any comment if the rest of us started doing that.
I still struggle with the tone of your original post - and even more the follow-up one. Even now having learnt more about you through your posts it still reads to me as celebrating an action that most(?) people saw as racist. Even if you are right, that is still a strange place to be.
You also argue that the gesture has run it’s course and clearly believe it should end. Fine, but there are a great many people, including those who do take the knee, who appear to think there is value in continuing and I’m not quite sure where you have said that their view isn’t valid (I may have missed it).
"there are a great many people, including those who do take the knee, who appear to think there is value in continuing and I’m not quite sure where you have said that their view isn’t valid" - I certainly haven't said their view's not valid.
Thanks for your post, peace, love, respect.
I thought you 2 were both going to say no more on the matter
Oh I thought you’d know me better than that @HolmerBlue. I always keep the option open of waffling about something i am suitably ill-informed on
Lol didn't really mean you @bookertease
Is racism sorted now?
No-one who has ever angrily declared a "last post" on a subject has ever not then posted fairly soon after. Basic Internet Knowledge.