@NewburyWanderer said: @Wendoverman Absolutely no way do I think they were wrong. I abhor racism and I always have done. I don't consider myself either left or right wing. What I'm not keen on is the political correctness which currently seems to pervade all aspects of life, and the way that a particular section of society seem to have taken the moral high ground, where their view of the world is the only correct view, and there is no room for nuance or shades of grey. There is actually a silent majority in this country that don't subscribe to this way of thinking, it's just that the aforementioned section of society doesn't seem to be able to handle any opinions that don't conform to their rigid black and white viewpoint.
Nailed it
Not sure I agree in the context of this thread. This is a debate about people’s thoughts on the behaviour of Millwall fans in booing players taking the knee. It is not in any way that I can see about what is ‘politically correct’ or not.
On the whole there have been some interesting (and in my view depressing) opinions expressed on here that personally I, and others, disagree with, but that doesn’t make them less valid than mine.
Anyone on here is at liberty to express a view, but quite rightly, anyone here is equally entitled to provide a counter-argument.
If you are uncomfortable, for whatever reason, with the debate feel free not to contribute.
People appear to like to use Political Correctness as a term of abuse for opinions and views that they disagree with, but what we are talking about really are staging posts on the way to societal change - either for the good or worse (in either direction).
Where in this are people taking the moral high ground?
(My argument above does of course pre-suppose that any reasonable person accepts the basic principle that it is simply wrong to treat a fellow human being differently based purely on the colour of their skin (etc). If that statement is viewed as being PC I obviously have a misjudged faith in the humanity of the Gasroom)
It's not like it came into currency in the last four years, Chris, nor that anything in the original post that used the phrase here had anything remotely Trumpian about it.
@Username said:
The silent majority sounds very Trumpish
Again with the diminishing of people who see things differently.
What's wrong with diminishing people who look up to proven liars? How do you judge people if not for their words or actions?
After taking a quick look down the Millwall forum, I'm prepared to be stronger this morning and say that anyone who is defending them is a fucking moron who shouldn't be welcome at Adams park.
@Username said:
Also, I didn't pick it up at first, but I'm pretty sure the only other time I've seen LDF pop up on here was defending racism a while back.
Pretty telling when the only things you feel strongly enough to defend our give your opinions on are the actions of the Millwall massive.
He might be able to spell which threw me, but his true beliefs are obvious in my eyes
The idea that everything is obvious to you was not in question.
@Username said:
Also, I didn't pick it up at first, but I'm pretty sure the only other time I've seen LDF pop up on here was defending racism a while back.
Pretty telling when the only things you feel strongly enough to defend our give your opinions on are the actions of the Millwall massive.
He might be able to spell which threw me, but his true beliefs are obvious in my eyes
The idea that everything is obvious to you was not in question.
How many people who don't have those views would solely come on to a football forum at a couple of points across multiple years to take a stand against anti racism?
@Username said:
Also, I didn't pick it up at first, but I'm pretty sure the only other time I've seen LDF pop up on here was defending racism a while back.
Pretty telling when the only things you feel strongly enough to defend our give your opinions on are the actions of the Millwall massive.
He might be able to spell which threw me, but his true beliefs are obvious in my eyes
The idea that everything is obvious to you was not in question.
How many people who don't have those views would solely come on to a football forum at a couple of points across multiple years to take a stand against anti racism?
I must admit that I struggled to match @LDF’s comments and opinions on racism (generally) with his statement that he is BAME him (or her)self. That may just be my perception though.
In the end I concluded he (or she) was basically just trolling us, albeit in a slightly, and unexpectedly (showing my prejudices to trolls here) erudite way.
@Username said:
Also, I didn't pick it up at first, but I'm pretty sure the only other time I've seen LDF pop up on here was defending racism a while back.
Pretty telling when the only things you feel strongly enough to defend our give your opinions on are the actions of the Millwall massive.
He might be able to spell which threw me, but his true beliefs are obvious in my eyes
The idea that everything is obvious to you was not in question.
How many people who don't have those views would solely come on to a football forum at a couple of points across multiple years to take a stand against anti racism?
QED.
Do you expect racists to come on here and obviously identify themselves as such? Maybe sign everything with a racial slur just to make sure we know?
Or do you think they'll try and be clever to justify their twisted ideology using various tenuous reasons, and avoid questions in order to distract from the main point of the debate, is it wrong for supposed fans of a team to boo their own team during a clearly described (by the players club themselves) protest against racial inequality?
@bookertease said:
I must admit that I struggled to match @LDF’s comments and opinions on racism (generally) with his statement that he is BAME him (or her)self. That may just be my perception though.
In the end I concluded he (or she) was basically just trolling us, albeit in a slightly, and unexpectedly (showing my prejudices to trolls here) erudite way.
Looking back on the thread, it wouldn't surprise me if the reason he didn't reply your question to him about his own race, is because he's a middle aged white bloke that genuinely believes he's consistently been the victim of racial prejudice, could easily be wrong and if I am I apologize, but vague memories of his previous appearance are coming back...
Well this is a minefield of a thread so I will tip toe gently. Do I support the taking the knee? 100% yes. It an expression of solidarity and support. The complexities of the BLM as opposed to blm is something that most people don't fully understand and is corrupted by a lot to suit their agenda.
What I would say is that taking a knee is a expression of freedom and the fact that Colin Kaepernick was vilified by the highest office in the land of the free was a disgrace. So when the PFA say Milwall should identify their fans who booed is also a terrible slur on freedom of expression. Whether you agree with it or not, what you think of these people and their views they are allowed them.
@TheAndyGrahamFanClub said:
Well this is a minefield of a thread so I will tip toe gently. Do I support the taking the knee? 100% yes. It an expression of solidarity and support. The complexities of the BLM as opposed to blm is something that most people don't fully understand and is corrupted by a lot to suit their agenda.
What I would say is that taking a knee is a expression of freedom and the fact that Colin Kaepernick was vilified by the highest office in the land of the free was a disgrace. So when the PFA say Milwall should identify their fans who booed is also a terrible slur on freedom of expression. Whether you agree with it or not, what you think of these people and their views they are allowed them.
Fair enough viewpoint
The question is then where do you set the line of acceptability of views that are allowed to be aired. That's always going to be the stickingb point.
To me, seemingly the FA and the Colchester chairman, booing an anti racism protest after its been explained as exactly that, is beyond that line of acceptability, so people with that view are still allowed to have them, but if they air them during the knee, they will be allowed to have them from outside of football.
If anyone boos at Wycombe and they're near me, it will end with either them, myself, or both leaving the ground. I'd put a large amount of money on it being them -not least because as shown Vs Stoke, our fans are a different breed to Millwall's cretins
Am I dreaming or did Username just say that someone else had a fair viewpoint? And I was just about to say that Username is starting to sound like a parody of theirself. (sorry, don't know your pronouns).
@LDF said:
Am I dreaming or did Username just say that someone else had a fair viewpoint? And I was just about to say that Username is starting to sound like a parody of theirself. (sorry, don't know your pronouns).
I've agreed with one or two of the many tangential arguments you've thrown out to distract and troll in this thread, so I'm really not following you here. Back under your rock now until this evening when I'm sure you'll be back to defend the upstanding Millwall hardcore
@LDF said:
Am I dreaming or did Username just say that someone else had a fair viewpoint? And I was just about to say that Username is starting to sound like a parody of theirself. (sorry, don't know your pronouns).
I've agreed with one or two of the many tangentsial arguments you've thrown out to distract and troll in this thread, so I'm really not following you here. Back under your rock now until this evening when I'm sure you'll be back to defend the upstanding Millwall hardcore
You have? I'd best go back and see if I can find them, lol.
While I've got your attention - I've had a more thorough read of all the posts from before I joined in yesterday and I must say that although you are clearly trying to speak the language of Critical Race Theory, your understanding of it is limited at best. You speak of 'systematic racism'. No, CRT is not talking about systematic racism; even its most rabid proponents concede that systematic racism hasn't been a thing for a while (if it ever was in Britain). Presumably you are alluding to systematic racism's invisible cousin, systemic racism. You also keep mentioning equality but you're behind the times as the conversation's now about the more abstract concept of equity.
As for the general tone of your arguments, you have provided a textbook example of why we are in a so-called culture war: in fact to the extent that I was beginning to wonder if you are trying to be the new Titania McGrath. I find it absolutely staggering that you can throw around accusations of facism and suggest that people who aren't on board with CRT dogma should be forcibly removed from society and you see no irony. I'm afraid it's this kind of attitude that is hardening positions, some of which actually are repugnant, and the reason that events in Bermondsey have opened a wider can of worms. I'd like to ask you a question and this is not designed to catch you out, I'm asking from a genuine place of good intent and curiosity. You say you're an anti-racist: what have you done to fight racism?
Again it comes down to believability, if you accept that those booing are standing up against bullying of sorts and that the protests are either sheep like or or based on moral distain for a political movement you might have a point, many will disagree.
Let's not pretend though that in 2020 all anti-racist protests are part of groupthink, and idealistic or groomed behaviour whereas the other side of the argument is only people a bit confused or annoyed with name calling.
@StrongestTeam said:
Again it comes down to believability, if you accept that those booing are standing up against bullying of sorts and that the protests are either sheep like or or based on moral distain for a political movement you might have a point, many will disagree.
Let's not pretend though that in 2020 all anti-racist protests are part of groupthink, and idealistic or groomed behaviour whereas the other side of the argument is only people a bit confused or annoyed with name calling.
Of course that is so and the argument has never been that it was. No-one has been critical of the idea of expressing opposition to racism in principle nor expressed any ideas that might remotely be connected to sympathy for a racist position unless it is no longer acceptable to voice anything other than total agreement for anything put forward under an anti-racist banner. What many have taken to be such is instead a recognition/ awareness of the fact that there are a number of moving parts in what has been going on in the subject since the summer and, while it would be nice to compartmentalise it into neat good person/ bad person categories, there is more to it than that and it merits careful, reasoned discussion.
Comments
The silent majority sounds very Trumpish
Again with the diminishing of people who see things differently.
Or just referencing that Trump constantly repeated that phrase.
https://www.npr.org/2016/01/22/463884201/trump-champions-the-silent-majority-but-what-does-that-mean-in-2016?t=1607416077953
Not sure I agree in the context of this thread. This is a debate about people’s thoughts on the behaviour of Millwall fans in booing players taking the knee. It is not in any way that I can see about what is ‘politically correct’ or not.
On the whole there have been some interesting (and in my view depressing) opinions expressed on here that personally I, and others, disagree with, but that doesn’t make them less valid than mine.
Anyone on here is at liberty to express a view, but quite rightly, anyone here is equally entitled to provide a counter-argument.
If you are uncomfortable, for whatever reason, with the debate feel free not to contribute.
People appear to like to use Political Correctness as a term of abuse for opinions and views that they disagree with, but what we are talking about really are staging posts on the way to societal change - either for the good or worse (in either direction).
Where in this are people taking the moral high ground?
(My argument above does of course pre-suppose that any reasonable person accepts the basic principle that it is simply wrong to treat a fellow human being differently based purely on the colour of their skin (etc). If that statement is viewed as being PC I obviously have a misjudged faith in the humanity of the Gasroom)
It's not like it came into currency in the last four years, Chris, nor that anything in the original post that used the phrase here had anything remotely Trumpian about it.
So it's no longer a phrase that has any valid, sensible meaning because that bozo has used it?
What's wrong with diminishing people who look up to proven liars? How do you judge people if not for their words or actions?
After taking a quick look down the Millwall forum, I'm prepared to be stronger this morning and say that anyone who is defending them is a fucking moron who shouldn't be welcome at Adams park.
Is that diminishing enough?
Also, I didn't pick it up at first, but I'm pretty sure the only other time I've seen LDF pop up on here was defending racism a while back.
Pretty telling when the only things you feel strongly enough to defend our give your opinions on are the actions of the Millwall massive.
He might be able to spell which threw me, but his true beliefs are obvious in my eyes
The idea that everything is obvious to you was not in question.
How many people who don't have those views would solely come on to a football forum at a couple of points across multiple years to take a stand against anti racism?
QED.
I must admit that I struggled to match @LDF’s comments and opinions on racism (generally) with his statement that he is BAME him (or her)self. That may just be my perception though.
In the end I concluded he (or she) was basically just trolling us, albeit in a slightly, and unexpectedly (showing my prejudices to trolls here) erudite way.
Do you expect racists to come on here and obviously identify themselves as such? Maybe sign everything with a racial slur just to make sure we know?
Or do you think they'll try and be clever to justify their twisted ideology using various tenuous reasons, and avoid questions in order to distract from the main point of the debate, is it wrong for supposed fans of a team to boo their own team during a clearly described (by the players club themselves) protest against racial inequality?
Looking back on the thread, it wouldn't surprise me if the reason he didn't reply your question to him about his own race, is because he's a middle aged white bloke that genuinely believes he's consistently been the victim of racial prejudice, could easily be wrong and if I am I apologize, but vague memories of his previous appearance are coming back...
Well this is a minefield of a thread so I will tip toe gently. Do I support the taking the knee? 100% yes. It an expression of solidarity and support. The complexities of the BLM as opposed to blm is something that most people don't fully understand and is corrupted by a lot to suit their agenda.
What I would say is that taking a knee is a expression of freedom and the fact that Colin Kaepernick was vilified by the highest office in the land of the free was a disgrace. So when the PFA say Milwall should identify their fans who booed is also a terrible slur on freedom of expression. Whether you agree with it or not, what you think of these people and their views they are allowed them.
Fair enough viewpoint
The question is then where do you set the line of acceptability of views that are allowed to be aired. That's always going to be the stickingb point.
To me, seemingly the FA and the Colchester chairman, booing an anti racism protest after its been explained as exactly that, is beyond that line of acceptability, so people with that view are still allowed to have them, but if they air them during the knee, they will be allowed to have them from outside of football.
If anyone boos at Wycombe and they're near me, it will end with either them, myself, or both leaving the ground. I'd put a large amount of money on it being them -not least because as shown Vs Stoke, our fans are a different breed to Millwall's cretins
Am I dreaming or did Username just say that someone else had a fair viewpoint? And I was just about to say that Username is starting to sound like a parody of theirself. (sorry, don't know your pronouns).
I've agreed with one or two of the many tangential arguments you've thrown out to distract and troll in this thread, so I'm really not following you here. Back under your rock now until this evening when I'm sure you'll be back to defend the upstanding Millwall hardcore
13 pages? Could somebody sum this thread up in a sentence? Cheers, ta
You have? I'd best go back and see if I can find them, lol.
While I've got your attention - I've had a more thorough read of all the posts from before I joined in yesterday and I must say that although you are clearly trying to speak the language of Critical Race Theory, your understanding of it is limited at best. You speak of 'systematic racism'. No, CRT is not talking about systematic racism; even its most rabid proponents concede that systematic racism hasn't been a thing for a while (if it ever was in Britain). Presumably you are alluding to systematic racism's invisible cousin, systemic racism. You also keep mentioning equality but you're behind the times as the conversation's now about the more abstract concept of equity.
As for the general tone of your arguments, you have provided a textbook example of why we are in a so-called culture war: in fact to the extent that I was beginning to wonder if you are trying to be the new Titania McGrath. I find it absolutely staggering that you can throw around accusations of facism and suggest that people who aren't on board with CRT dogma should be forcibly removed from society and you see no irony. I'm afraid it's this kind of attitude that is hardening positions, some of which actually are repugnant, and the reason that events in Bermondsey have opened a wider can of worms. I'd like to ask you a question and this is not designed to catch you out, I'm asking from a genuine place of good intent and curiosity. You say you're an anti-racist: what have you done to fight racism?
Some people find a way to condone Millwall fans booing of the taking a knee gesture.
Again it comes down to believability, if you accept that those booing are standing up against bullying of sorts and that the protests are either sheep like or or based on moral distain for a political movement you might have a point, many will disagree.
Let's not pretend though that in 2020 all anti-racist protests are part of groupthink, and idealistic or groomed behaviour whereas the other side of the argument is only people a bit confused or annoyed with name calling.
If I were one of our BAME players, I'd be saddened to read the apologism on this thread from my own fans.
More than saddened, I'd be frankly disgusted.
Assuming we get 2000 in on Saturday, I will be proudly applauding our players taking the knee and would like to think others would join.
I don't remember the taking the knee getting applauded last Wednesday but please correct me if I am wrong.
Millwall fans are all knuckle-dragging racists v this could be part of a broader battle of ideas.
But you're not.
I mean, I'm saddened by it too.
Of course that is so and the argument has never been that it was. No-one has been critical of the idea of expressing opposition to racism in principle nor expressed any ideas that might remotely be connected to sympathy for a racist position unless it is no longer acceptable to voice anything other than total agreement for anything put forward under an anti-racist banner. What many have taken to be such is instead a recognition/ awareness of the fact that there are a number of moving parts in what has been going on in the subject since the summer and, while it would be nice to compartmentalise it into neat good person/ bad person categories, there is more to it than that and it merits careful, reasoned discussion.