I'm surprised you can ask that after what's happened already.
Emboldening racists rarely calms trouble, even if that wasn't what was intended to back down now would be seen as a massive boost to those on the extremes, hence why QPR who agreed with your central point that the knee taking has run its course decided to join back in.
Yes, it's bit of a mess now, isn't it? A timescale needs to be introduced, I would prefer a one-off, and it needs to be made clear that it is not in support of BLM. Life's about compromise, I'm afraid.
It already has been made clear, and will be again, that the taking of the knee is in support of the black lives matter race equality protest and not in support of any political parties
Black Lives Matter is a registered political party.
I'm surprised you can ask that after what's happened already.
Emboldening racists rarely calms trouble, even if that wasn't what was intended to back down now would be seen as a massive boost to those on the extremes, hence why QPR who agreed with your central point that the knee taking has run its course decided to join back in.
Yes, it's bit of a mess now, isn't it? A timescale needs to be introduced, I would prefer a one-off, and it needs to be made clear that it is not in support of BLM. Life's about compromise, I'm afraid.
Quite the opposite, we need to applaud taking the knee and make it very clear we support our players in their chosen action.
You disagree that there will have to be compromise?
I'm surprised you can ask that after what's happened already.
Emboldening racists rarely calms trouble, even if that wasn't what was intended to back down now would be seen as a massive boost to those on the extremes, hence why QPR who agreed with your central point that the knee taking has run its course decided to join back in.
Yes, it's bit of a mess now, isn't it? A timescale needs to be introduced, I would prefer a one-off, and it needs to be made clear that it is not in support of BLM. Life's about compromise, I'm afraid.
It already has been made clear, and will be again, that the taking of the knee is in support of the black lives matter race equality protest and not in support of any political parties
Black Lives Matter is a registered political party.
A small fringe political party taking the name doesn't own the phrase. Also I'm assuming that's in America?
To be fair I think the actual statements put out didn't even say that taking the knee was in support of BLM, just "the fight for race equality", not any political party, so it's pretty unarguable.
@Chris said:
You’re very tiresome. There doesn’t need to be compromise on players taking the knee. As long as they want to they should.
Sorry Chris, I understand you're not used to someone positing points of view that you can't cope with. I really should learn to toe the party line. As for not needing a compromise, something will have to give. I guarantee that racism will still exist in three years time and that the players will not still be taking the knee.
A political party (Black Liberation Movement UK) was recently registered in the UK with a splash in the tabloid newspapers, but it isn’t connected with the existing BLM movement.
LOL I’m more used to people disagreeing with me than agreeing. Racism will still exist in three years time. Players taking the knee makes us talk about it which is one step towards reducing it.
I'm surprised you can ask that after what's happened already.
Emboldening racists rarely calms trouble, even if that wasn't what was intended to back down now would be seen as a massive boost to those on the extremes, hence why QPR who agreed with your central point that the knee taking has run its course decided to join back in.
Yes, it's bit of a mess now, isn't it? A timescale needs to be introduced, I would prefer a one-off, and it needs to be made clear that it is not in support of BLM. Life's about compromise, I'm afraid.
It already has been made clear, and will be again, that the taking of the knee is in support of the black lives matter race equality protest and not in support of any political parties
Black Lives Matter is a registered political party.
A small fringe political party taking the name doesn't own the phrase. Also I'm assuming that's in America?
To be fair I think the actual statements put out didn't even say that taking the knee was in support of BLM, just "the fight for race equality", not any political party, so it's pretty unarguable.
The overwhelming perception is that taking the knee is in support of BLM. It's no good just castigating people as idiots for thinking that - you have to deal with what's in front of you. It needs to be made very, very clear that it's not.
@Chris said:
You’re very tiresome. There doesn’t need to be compromise on players taking the knee. As long as they want to they should.
Sorry Chris, I understand you're not used to someone positing points of view that you can't cope with. I really should learn to toe the party line. As for not needing a compromise, something will have to give. I guarantee that racism will still exist in three years time and that the players will not still be taking the knee.
and some people will be doing good work in their communities in a range of ways for a range of causes and others will say it's all a waste of time and that by doing so they upset other people's freedom, and that will still be bs then.
@LDF said:
I have no idea why my comment would mean I'm a racist sympathiser, I'm anything but. Taking the knee is pointless unless there's a specific aim and a timescale. Saying it'll end when racism ends is nonsense, for obvious reasons, and if everyone does it forever it becomes meaningless. All that's happening is that a rift is being created between those who take the knee and those who don't. That's what some people want.
That isn't the point the Millwall fans who booed are making. They apparently equate making a gesture against racism and prejudice to "Marxism" and a "political opinion".
Of course the gesture of taking a knee can't go on forever, though the actions of morons booing will only strengthen the case for players to continue, and no doubt strengthen their resolve to continue making their point.
QPR's players deciding to take the knee again after having previously come to the conclusion you outlined, consider Saturday's events at The Den to be the whole point as to why a statement against racist attitudes in football, and in society in general, has to be taken.
@LDF said:
I have no idea why my comment would mean I'm a racist sympathiser, I'm anything but. Taking the knee is pointless unless there's a specific aim and a timescale. Saying it'll end when racism ends is nonsense, for obvious reasons, and if everyone does it forever it becomes meaningless. All that's happening is that a rift is being created between those who take the knee and those who don't. That's what some people want.
That isn't the point the Millwall fans who booed are making. They apparently equate making a gesture against racism and prejudice to "Marxism" and a "political opinion".
Of course the gesture of taking a knee can't go on forever, though the actions of morons booing will only strengthen the case for players to continue, and no doubt strengthen their resolve to continue making their point.
QPR's players deciding to take the knee again after having previously come to the conclusion you outlined, consider Saturday's events at The Den to be the whole point as to why a statement against racist attitudes in football, and in society in general, has to be taken.
BLM's ideas about combatting racism are based on Critical Race Theory which is Marxism with a new twist (one the rich can get behind) and I'm sorry to say is a twisted ideology that is bound to ramp up hate. What we need is more love! Thanks to everyone for the conversation. Goodnight. COYMB!
The players are making a statement against racial discrimination. Those projecting their own irrational pet hates and prejudices onto them are the problem. As for 'wanting more love' and a harmonious society, looking to the worst of Millwall's far-right fringe implicated in Saturday's pathetic scenes as the inspiration for this must be some clever joke I'm not in on.
Everyone has to have a bogeyman I suppose. Critical race theory is a pretty dry academic theory that’s been around for years, which (simplifying a lot) is at its core about recognising institutional racism and looking at ways it can be tackled. It’s far from a ‘twisted ideology’ that ramps up hate.
So we've established that people who make it clear why they are taking the knee and statements of those who support them are dubious snowflakey thought controlled groupthink imposed on naive binary thickos who need to do some real historical research or clearly the work of mad pinkoes but the reason why fans of a renowned racist club booed an anti-racist gesture are far more complex and nuanced than mere blatant racist abuse and who is to judge them without knowing each individual's motives? I've read and argued with and even posted some bollocks on here, but never blocked anyone before. Just started with racists.
@Chris said:
Everyone has to have a bogeyman I suppose. Critical race theory is a pretty dry academic theory that’s been around for years, which (simplifying a lot) is at its core about recognising institutional racism and looking at ways it can be tackled. It’s far from a ‘twisted ideology’ that ramps up hate.
It's not remotely about tackling institutional racism, which is what boring old liberals and conservatives etc try to do. It's the idea that literally everything IS racism and so the only way to fight racism is to dismantle the entire system. I would suggest that revolution tends to replace imperfect systems with truly despotic ones so be careful what you wish for.
“Not to mention the fact those involved must realise that booing – not ignoring, but actually pissing all over – a gesture that expresses anti-racism is by its nature a racist act.”
“Not to mention the fact those involved must realise that booing – not ignoring, but actually pissing all over – a gesture that expresses anti-racism is by its nature a racist act.”
In 5 years of gasroom membership, @LDF has posted more comments in this thread in one evening than the rest of his contributions combined. I wonder why ?
@NewburyWanderer do you think the progessive ideals of the 1960s about racial and sexual equality and peace that you grew up with were wrong? Genuine question. I'm always amazed when rockers, beat fans and even punks (my era) and old goths embraced their movement and the support and solidarity they found, listened to all that great music and yet now seem to hate kids having opinions and end up to the right of genghis khan. Mark E Smith and Morrissey turned into right old nazis I suppose...
Anyone in doubt as to how something as simple as taking the knee can be important just needs to look at how it's firing up the world renowned family club supporters of Millwall.
"Compared to where my heads been at over the last few days, that’s a fkin relief and great news.
I know that might not satisfy you all, but the boos and probably a lot of us on here has stopped the brainless knee bollx.
All of us and the people that bood plus the media that’s supported us, the celebs ish that have stood up for us and general common sense has prevailed.
Millwall supporters have ended the knee. Probably one of the proudest moments of my Millwall career. Now watch the rest follow.
Fkin brilliant Millwall. The biggest small club in the world - its official!"
@drcongo said:
In 5 years of gasroom membership, @LDF has posted more comments in this thread in one evening than the rest of his contributions combined. I wonder why ?
My usual midnight visit. The yellow square showed what I thought was 21 new posts. On closer inspection I realised with some horror that it was actually 211. Dilemma. Whether to stick to the plan - in bed by midnight - or to have a quick skim through to see what startling new development had provoked such a frenzy. Answer, nothing in particular. Skip to last page and find myself eavesdropping on a slightly odd exchange between @chris and someone (@LDF) whose moniker sounded unfamiliar. Less than a single visit per month since joining nearly six years ago suggested a somewhat less Wycombe Wanderers obsessed individual than the majority (?) of us on here. Takes all types, I suppose.
@Wendoverman Absolutely no way do I think they were wrong. I abhor racism and I always have done. I don't consider myself either left or right wing. What I'm not keen on is the political correctness which currently seems to pervade all aspects of life, and the way that a particular section of society seem to have taken the moral high ground, where their view of the world is the only correct view, and there is no room for nuance or shades of grey. There is actually a silent majority in this country that don't subscribe to this way of thinking, it's just that the aforementioned section of society doesn't seem to be able to handle any opinions that don't conform to their rigid black and white viewpoint.
Back to the original point on this thread. It would appear to me that a lot of views are down to the perception that "taking the knee" is seen by some as supporting BLM/a marxist/extremist political party that was linked to violence particularly in the USA. The closed fist is linked to Black Panther/black power/Jessie Owen. These perceptions rightly or wrongly have been used by many as the reasons for the booing at Milwall & Colchester.
My suggestion would be that the players in the future form a ring arms over shoulders, black & white alternate, even players from both teams linking. Clubs can issue statements about the intentions. Surely then, football takes out any doubt and if there are any fans that still voice their disapproval, then it will be known that it can only be from a racist POV?
Maybe then we can get back to talking how Ainsworth & Dobbo got the tactics all wrong in the last 10 minutes of the Preston game and cost us two points?
@drcongo said:
In 5 years of gasroom membership, @LDF has posted more comments in this thread in one evening than the rest of his contributions combined. I wonder why ?
Since it makes no reference to me, I can safely say that this seems to be new low for you, @drcongo. Rather than address the considerable substance of @ldf's posts - all of which have been offered without rancour, cynicism or personal attack and a good amount of apparent knowledge and personal experience - you choose to diminish him because of the number of posts he has made. If you were wondering why it is that I have felt minded to write at length on this thread, you will find your answer in the apparent certainty of correctness in your posts, combined with a willingness to think the very worst possible of anyone seeing things another way.
Yours is not the only perspective on society or its many and varied ills nor on how best it might become better. The people with different perspectives are not all racists, sexists and homophobes.
@NewburyWanderer said: @Wendoverman Absolutely no way do I think they were wrong. I abhor racism and I always have done. I don't consider myself either left or right wing. What I'm not keen on is the political correctness which currently seems to pervade all aspects of life, and the way that a particular section of society seem to have taken the moral high ground, where their view of the world is the only correct view, and there is no room for nuance or shades of grey. There is actually a silent majority in this country that don't subscribe to this way of thinking, it's just that the aforementioned section of society doesn't seem to be able to handle any opinions that don't conform to their rigid black and white viewpoint.
Comments
Just read that Millwall allocate their tickets two games at a time, so the fans there tomorrow will be the same ones as Saturday.
Black Lives Matter is a registered political party.
You disagree that there will have to be compromise?
You’re very tiresome. There doesn’t need to be compromise on players taking the knee. As long as they want to they should.
Came back to 138 posts has anyone called for defunding the Gasroom yet?
A small fringe political party taking the name doesn't own the phrase. Also I'm assuming that's in America?
To be fair I think the actual statements put out didn't even say that taking the knee was in support of BLM, just "the fight for race equality", not any political party, so it's pretty unarguable.
Sorry Chris, I understand you're not used to someone positing points of view that you can't cope with. I really should learn to toe the party line. As for not needing a compromise, something will have to give. I guarantee that racism will still exist in three years time and that the players will not still be taking the knee.
A political party (Black Liberation Movement UK) was recently registered in the UK with a splash in the tabloid newspapers, but it isn’t connected with the existing BLM movement.
LOL I’m more used to people disagreeing with me than agreeing. Racism will still exist in three years time. Players taking the knee makes us talk about it which is one step towards reducing it.
The overwhelming perception is that taking the knee is in support of BLM. It's no good just castigating people as idiots for thinking that - you have to deal with what's in front of you. It needs to be made very, very clear that it's not.
and some people will be doing good work in their communities in a range of ways for a range of causes and others will say it's all a waste of time and that by doing so they upset other people's freedom, and that will still be bs then.
https://www.cu-fc.com/news/2020/december/club-statement/
Colchester United fans definitely can't use the political excuse next week...
That isn't the point the Millwall fans who booed are making. They apparently equate making a gesture against racism and prejudice to "Marxism" and a "political opinion".
Of course the gesture of taking a knee can't go on forever, though the actions of morons booing will only strengthen the case for players to continue, and no doubt strengthen their resolve to continue making their point.
QPR's players deciding to take the knee again after having previously come to the conclusion you outlined, consider Saturday's events at The Den to be the whole point as to why a statement against racist attitudes in football, and in society in general, has to be taken.
BLM's ideas about combatting racism are based on Critical Race Theory which is Marxism with a new twist (one the rich can get behind) and I'm sorry to say is a twisted ideology that is bound to ramp up hate. What we need is more love! Thanks to everyone for the conversation. Goodnight. COYMB!
The players are making a statement against racial discrimination. Those projecting their own irrational pet hates and prejudices onto them are the problem. As for 'wanting more love' and a harmonious society, looking to the worst of Millwall's far-right fringe implicated in Saturday's pathetic scenes as the inspiration for this must be some clever joke I'm not in on.
Everyone has to have a bogeyman I suppose. Critical race theory is a pretty dry academic theory that’s been around for years, which (simplifying a lot) is at its core about recognising institutional racism and looking at ways it can be tackled. It’s far from a ‘twisted ideology’ that ramps up hate.
So we've established that people who make it clear why they are taking the knee and statements of those who support them are dubious snowflakey thought controlled groupthink imposed on naive binary thickos who need to do some real historical research or clearly the work of mad pinkoes but the reason why fans of a renowned racist club booed an anti-racist gesture are far more complex and nuanced than mere blatant racist abuse and who is to judge them without knowing each individual's motives? I've read and argued with and even posted some bollocks on here, but never blocked anyone before. Just started with racists.
It's not remotely about tackling institutional racism, which is what boring old liberals and conservatives etc try to do. It's the idea that literally everything IS racism and so the only way to fight racism is to dismantle the entire system. I would suggest that revolution tends to replace imperfect systems with truly despotic ones so be careful what you wish for.
Entertaining trolling @LDF. Congratulations on your perseverance.
I mean CRT is a broad church (as are most theories) but you’re wrong.
From the Guardian
“Not to mention the fact those involved must realise that booing – not ignoring, but actually pissing all over – a gesture that expresses anti-racism is by its nature a racist act.”
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/dec/07/taking-a-knee-is-a-sign-to-minorities-they-are-welcome-at-football-grounds?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
Obviously means nothing to some coming from such a Marxist publication.
In 5 years of gasroom membership, @LDF has posted more comments in this thread in one evening than the rest of his contributions combined. I wonder why ?
@NewburyWanderer do you think the progessive ideals of the 1960s about racial and sexual equality and peace that you grew up with were wrong? Genuine question. I'm always amazed when rockers, beat fans and even punks (my era) and old goths embraced their movement and the support and solidarity they found, listened to all that great music and yet now seem to hate kids having opinions and end up to the right of genghis khan. Mark E Smith and Morrissey turned into right old nazis I suppose...
Anyone in doubt as to how something as simple as taking the knee can be important just needs to look at how it's firing up the world renowned family club supporters of Millwall.
"Compared to where my heads been at over the last few days, that’s a fkin relief and great news.
I know that might not satisfy you all, but the boos and probably a lot of us on here has stopped the brainless knee bollx.
All of us and the people that bood plus the media that’s supported us, the celebs ish that have stood up for us and general common sense has prevailed.
Millwall supporters have ended the knee. Probably one of the proudest moments of my Millwall career. Now watch the rest follow.
Fkin brilliant Millwall. The biggest small club in the world - its official!"
My usual midnight visit. The yellow square showed what I thought was 21 new posts. On closer inspection I realised with some horror that it was actually 211. Dilemma. Whether to stick to the plan - in bed by midnight - or to have a quick skim through to see what startling new development had provoked such a frenzy. Answer, nothing in particular. Skip to last page and find myself eavesdropping on a slightly odd exchange between @chris and someone (@LDF) whose moniker sounded unfamiliar. Less than a single visit per month since joining nearly six years ago suggested a somewhat less Wycombe Wanderers obsessed individual than the majority (?) of us on here. Takes all types, I suppose.
@Wendoverman Absolutely no way do I think they were wrong. I abhor racism and I always have done. I don't consider myself either left or right wing. What I'm not keen on is the political correctness which currently seems to pervade all aspects of life, and the way that a particular section of society seem to have taken the moral high ground, where their view of the world is the only correct view, and there is no room for nuance or shades of grey. There is actually a silent majority in this country that don't subscribe to this way of thinking, it's just that the aforementioned section of society doesn't seem to be able to handle any opinions that don't conform to their rigid black and white viewpoint.
Back to the original point on this thread. It would appear to me that a lot of views are down to the perception that "taking the knee" is seen by some as supporting BLM/a marxist/extremist political party that was linked to violence particularly in the USA. The closed fist is linked to Black Panther/black power/Jessie Owen. These perceptions rightly or wrongly have been used by many as the reasons for the booing at Milwall & Colchester.
My suggestion would be that the players in the future form a ring arms over shoulders, black & white alternate, even players from both teams linking. Clubs can issue statements about the intentions. Surely then, football takes out any doubt and if there are any fans that still voice their disapproval, then it will be known that it can only be from a racist POV?
Maybe then we can get back to talking how Ainsworth & Dobbo got the tactics all wrong in the last 10 minutes of the Preston game and cost us two points?
Since it makes no reference to me, I can safely say that this seems to be new low for you, @drcongo. Rather than address the considerable substance of @ldf's posts - all of which have been offered without rancour, cynicism or personal attack and a good amount of apparent knowledge and personal experience - you choose to diminish him because of the number of posts he has made. If you were wondering why it is that I have felt minded to write at length on this thread, you will find your answer in the apparent certainty of correctness in your posts, combined with a willingness to think the very worst possible of anyone seeing things another way.
Yours is not the only perspective on society or its many and varied ills nor on how best it might become better. The people with different perspectives are not all racists, sexists and homophobes.
Nailed it