@bookertease said:
I’m actually becoming rather amused by the contortions some on here are resorting to in an attempt to justifying which in simple terms is a simple issue.
Personally I refuse to stand for the national anthem. That could be for any number of reasons, including the possibility that I’m naturally lazy (but is basically because I personally take the view that the monarchy is a logically indefensible institution that perpetuates the class system that continues to permeate and rot the structure of this country to its long-term detriment).
Regardless, whether anyone knows my reasoning for not standing, I am fully aware that my (in)action will be perceived as being anti-monarchy.
If being perceived in that way concerned me I would make conscious efforts to avoid looking like an inconsiderate idiot.
I find it incredulous that, in view of the debate since Saturday, that anyone can actually believe a non-racist motive for booing (if it happens) when players take the knee next.
If I was aggrieved by the politics of BLM but not a racist (of wanting to be perceived as one) I certainly wouldn’t join in with the booing
100%
I have massive reservations about our armed forces
Never in a million years would I choose to voice them during a minutes silence
We don't have a minute's silence for the armed forces before every match.
So? Players have taken the knee for ONE match in front of spectators. I would like to think that gave the opportunity for supporters to support the stance, not to loudly disapprove.
@drcongo said:
That thread on the Millwall forum is hilarious. Every other post is someone listing a black player they don’t hate as proof that they’re not a racist. “I’m not racist, some of my best friends players are black”
Whilst a white person having a black friend might not prove conclusively that they're not racist, it would have to be said that they're not making a very good job of it.
That's a very poor point.
It's will established that absolutely ardent racists make exceptions when it suits them , because at the end of the day, they are still human and people do make accidental connections, and once a personal connection is made, the fear/ hate of the stranger to that individual can be sidelined "he's not like the others", "but this one's ok" etc etc
So if somebody has black friends and is adamant that they're not a racist, why would you accuse them of being a racist?
@drcongo said:
That thread on the Millwall forum is hilarious. Every other post is someone listing a black player they don’t hate as proof that they’re not a racist. “I’m not racist, some of my best friends players are black”
Whilst a white person having a black friend might not prove conclusively that they're not racist, it would have to be said that they're not making a very good job of it.
That's a very poor point.
It's will established that absolutely ardent racists make exceptions when it suits them , because at the end of the day, they are still human and people do make accidental connections, and once a personal connection is made, the fear/ hate of the stranger to that individual can be sidelined "he's not like the others", "but this one's ok" etc etc
So if somebody has black friends and is adamant that they're not a racist, why would you accuse them of being a racist?
If they said racist remarks, held racist opinions or carried out racist actions....
@drcongo said:
That thread on the Millwall forum is hilarious. Every other post is someone listing a black player they don’t hate as proof that they’re not a racist. “I’m not racist, some of my best friends players are black”
Whilst a white person having a black friend might not prove conclusively that they're not racist, it would have to be said that they're not making a very good job of it.
That's a very poor point.
It's will established that absolutely ardent racists make exceptions when it suits them , because at the end of the day, they are still human and people do make accidental connections, and once a personal connection is made, the fear/ hate of the stranger to that individual can be sidelined "he's not like the others", "but this one's ok" etc etc
So if somebody has black friends and is adamant that they're not a racist, why would you accuse them of being a racist?
If they said racist remarks, held racist opinions or carried out racist actions....
And who judges if their words or actions are racist?
@StrongestTeam said:
Some weird stuff above, I hope it's a bit more in depth than just people not wanting to be told what to do by society and thinking that is the same or worse than being racially abused but I'm not convinced.
I'm sorry but this issue is broader than it first appears as there is an insidious totalitarian mindset creeping into society that says it's my way or the highway. There's more than one way to skin a cat. Btw, I'm willing to bet that I've had more racial abuse and been beaten up by the police more times than everyone else on this thread put together and I'd take that over the sort of control that some appear to want.
Now I’m intrigued. What racial abuse have you suffered from if you don’t mind me asking?
@drcongo said:
That thread on the Millwall forum is hilarious. Every other post is someone listing a black player they don’t hate as proof that they’re not a racist. “I’m not racist, some of my best friends players are black”
Whilst a white person having a black friend might not prove conclusively that they're not racist, it would have to be said that they're not making a very good job of it.
That's a very poor point.
It's will established that absolutely ardent racists make exceptions when it suits them , because at the end of the day, they are still human and people do make accidental connections, and once a personal connection is made, the fear/ hate of the stranger to that individual can be sidelined "he's not like the others", "but this one's ok" etc etc
So if somebody has black friends and is adamant that they're not a racist, why would you accuse them of being a racist?
If they said racist remarks, held racist opinions or carried out racist actions....
And who judges if their words or actions are racist?
Society as a whole, but generally led by the victim not the accused. Obviously depends of the context and situation
Maybe taking the knee will cause a step change in football support. If the Colchester chairman's statement is repeated at other places, and actions match it, then there will soon be a substantial banned list
@StrongestTeam said:
Some weird stuff above, I hope it's a bit more in depth than just people not wanting to be told what to do by society and thinking that is the same or worse than being racially abused but I'm not convinced.
I'm sorry but this issue is broader than it first appears as there is an insidious totalitarian mindset creeping into society that says it's my way or the highway. There's more than one way to skin a cat. Btw, I'm willing to bet that I've had more racial abuse and been beaten up by the police more times than everyone else on this thread put together and I'd take that over the sort of control that some appear to want.
Now I’m intrigued. What racial abuse have you suffered from if you don’t mind me asking?
I was racially abused at school and effectively told by the teacher that I was asking for it, I've been physically attacked by gangs several times and a few years ago I was frequently racially abused at work and was suddenly and mysteriously sacked.
I'm surprised you can ask that after what's happened already.
Emboldening racists rarely calms trouble, even if that wasn't what was intended to back down now would be seen as a massive boost to those on the extremes, hence why QPR who agreed with your central point that the knee taking has run its course decided to join back in.
Just to help the context of your discussions then please @LDF, you identify as being BAME but you do not support BLM and/or BAME players taking the knee as a gesture supported by their white colleagues?
I'm surprised you can ask that after what's happened already.
Emboldening racists rarely calms trouble, even if that wasn't what was intended to back down now would be seen as a massive boost to those on the extremes, hence why QPR who agreed with your central point that the knee taking has run its course decided to join back in.
Yes, it's bit of a mess now, isn't it? A timescale needs to be introduced, I would prefer a one-off, and it needs to be made clear that it is not in support of BLM. Life's about compromise, I'm afraid.
I'm surprised you can ask that after what's happened already.
Emboldening racists rarely calms trouble, even if that wasn't what was intended to back down now would be seen as a massive boost to those on the extremes, hence why QPR who agreed with your central point that the knee taking has run its course decided to join back in.
Yes, it's bit of a mess now, isn't it? A timescale needs to be introduced, I would prefer a one-off, and it needs to be made clear that it is not in support of BLM. Life's about compromise, I'm afraid.
It already has been made clear, and will be again, that the taking of the knee is in support of the black lives matter race equality protest and not in support of any political parties
I'm surprised you can ask that after what's happened already.
Emboldening racists rarely calms trouble, even if that wasn't what was intended to back down now would be seen as a massive boost to those on the extremes, hence why QPR who agreed with your central point that the knee taking has run its course decided to join back in.
Yes, it's bit of a mess now, isn't it? A timescale needs to be introduced, I would prefer a one-off, and it needs to be made clear that it is not in support of BLM. Life's about compromise, I'm afraid.
Quite the opposite, we need to applaud taking the knee and make it very clear we support our players in their chosen action.
Comments
Perhaps some non-racists are so fed up that they don't care what people think. Can you suggest a better way for fans to make their opinions known?
So? Players have taken the knee for ONE match in front of spectators. I would like to think that gave the opportunity for supporters to support the stance, not to loudly disapprove.
So if somebody has black friends and is adamant that they're not a racist, why would you accuse them of being a racist?
Do what are you fed up with that isn’t racist?
If they said racist remarks, held racist opinions or carried out racist actions....
Then they probably are a duck?
Sorry, that's way too vague and just asking for trouble.
What sort of trouble?
And who judges if their words or actions are racist?
Why would it matter if it went on for years? Does 5 seconds of someone else kneeling really offend people that much?
Now I’m intrigued. What racial abuse have you suffered from if you don’t mind me asking?
You don't know what racism is?
Think it’s safe to say it appears to offend some people who are racist
Why should your opinion be more valid than the players?
It matters because it loses meaning and is bound to divide opinion.
Society as a whole, but generally led by the victim not the accused. Obviously depends of the context and situation
They seem contradictory statements to me.
How can it divide opinion if it's lost meaning?
Maybe taking the knee will cause a step change in football support. If the Colchester chairman's statement is repeated at other places, and actions match it, then there will soon be a substantial banned list
I was racially abused at school and effectively told by the teacher that I was asking for it, I've been physically attacked by gangs several times and a few years ago I was frequently racially abused at work and was suddenly and mysteriously sacked.
So by your own admission then, it is pretty straightforward to identify racism?
Seems odd to ask earlier then "who judges if their words or actions are racist?"
I'm surprised you can ask that after what's happened already.
Seems a little bit "bad people on both sides" for my liking
Unfortunately it's not odd at all. So many things a being called racist these days that it's diluting the meaning of racism.
Emboldening racists rarely calms trouble, even if that wasn't what was intended to back down now would be seen as a massive boost to those on the extremes, hence why QPR who agreed with your central point that the knee taking has run its course decided to join back in.
I'm sure you have the best intentions but I'm sorry to say that you sound naive. This is not a black and white issue, if you'll excuse the pun.
Just to help the context of your discussions then please @LDF, you identify as being BAME but you do not support BLM and/or BAME players taking the knee as a gesture supported by their white colleagues?
They were meant to be separate reasons.
Yes, it's bit of a mess now, isn't it? A timescale needs to be introduced, I would prefer a one-off, and it needs to be made clear that it is not in support of BLM. Life's about compromise, I'm afraid.
It already has been made clear, and will be again, that the taking of the knee is in support of the black lives matter race equality protest and not in support of any political parties
Quite the opposite, we need to applaud taking the knee and make it very clear we support our players in their chosen action.