Chopper Harris was by all accounts capable of waving an imaginary card without using his hands. He didn’t get his nickname based on his performance on the pitch.
Easy to miss the point here, in past years the game was a lot more physical and players got whacked and went down but mostly got whacked , got up again and got on with it. It is right that quicker skillful players get more protection these days but diving and begging/ hassling the ref are two massive ills that can and should be cut out. Otherwise you'll just get players rolling round and whining all day and no actual football.
@EwanHoosaami said:
When then did the players cross to the dark side then @ReturnToSenda? I've been watching & playing the game for approximately 55 years. I certainly don't have a recollection of the professionals waving their hands about like "squirrels on crack" in the decades I mentioned earlier.
By the way I never said that the players were all mild mannered saints either. My peak attendance viewing was in the days of Chopper Harris, Norman bites yer legs Hunter, Billy Bremner, Tommy Smith to name but a few. I don't recall any of them waving their imaginary cards, even when revenge tackles were flying in.
I do indeed @Malone . Most clubs had a midfield enforcer capable of flying in akin to the Jason Cousins "flying machine" tackle v Doncaster. I also remember watching Rodney Marsh, when my dad used to take me to QPR, often tripping himself up in the box to win a penalty. He was a master at it.
@StrongestTeam said:
Easy to miss the point here, in past years the game was a lot more physical and players got whacked and went down but mostly got whacked , got up again and got on with it.
That's my point, they didn't wave imaginary cards around, they just got up and got on with it, leaving the referee to make the decisions, good or bad.
Totally agree that surrounding the ref, hassling & begging is something else that has become prevalent in the modern game. Not sure when that became the norm either.
The stakes are so much higher now - which I guess you can ultimately put down to money, but the game is just a completely different beast. The intensity is absolutely off the scale these days and I think it follows that players' adrenaline is too (would be interested to read some sort of scientific study into this).
I think in the olden days they got up.because at some point in the game there was a good chance of being able to exact some high studded revenge of their own!
Peterborough could be relegated this Easter, if results go against them. From memory, I think a Reading win coupled with a Posh defeat on Friday sees them down.
@HolmerBlue said:
If I was a ref I'd book a player for waving an imaginary card
So would I.
@ReturnToSenda said:
But I maintain that non-aggressive card-waving is neither here nor there.
Why bother doing it then?
What is the acceptable action if someone absolutely stonks into one of your team mates?
A few options.
Imaginary card waving.
Storm into the ref and offending player en masse.
Storm to the ref solo
Stand still and scream that they should be off.
Gently comment to the ref that it's "his 4th or 5th foul", or "that's nasty"
Stand perfectly still, say nothing, do nothing.
@Malone said:
What is the acceptable action if someone absolutely stonks into one of your team mates?
A few options.
Imaginary card waving.
Storm into the ref and offending player en masse.
Storm to the ref solo
Stand still and scream that they should be off.
Gently comment to the ref that it's "his 4th or 5th foul", or "that's nasty"
Stand perfectly still, say nothing, do nothing.
A gentle comment quietly in the refs ear. If he doesn't get sent off, mark his card for later on.
@HolmerBlue said:
If I was a ref I'd book a player for waving an imaginary card
So would I.
@ReturnToSenda said:
But I maintain that non-aggressive card-waving is neither here nor there.
Why bother doing it then?
What is the acceptable action if someone absolutely stonks into one of your team mates?
A few options.
Imaginary card waving.
Storm into the ref and offending player en masse.
Storm to the ref solo
Stand still and scream that they should be off.
Gently comment to the ref that it's "his 4th or 5th foul", or "that's nasty"
Stand perfectly still, say nothing, do nothing.
Hit em back, don't complain when you get a red?
The point is most of these appeals are for 50/50s at best, like when you "might have felt contact" which I still don't think is an offence, or where you whacked a ball at someones arm from 5cm away and somehow want a penalty.
You can see why they do it but it's embarrassing and it does make the overall game worse, and while you can apply that to lots of things I think this is an easy one to cut out.
I find the biggest issue is that a significant amount of players/managers will complain about every single decision and because of that it creeps down to every level of football.
I was linesman at an U14 Division 6 fixture recently, where the opposition manager should not have been anywhere near a junior match. Apparently he was an ex-pro/semi pro.
Berated the 17 year old referee for 70 minutes. Even when the ref stopped the game so the goalkeeper could do his laces up. The goalkeeper had the ball at the time in open play. He went apoplectic because the ball was meant to be out of play. Screamed for about a minute and a half at one point at the ref because he didn't give a free kick. The ref was correct.
His players were foul mouthed and completely disrespectful, which all came from his behaviour and no doubt some from watching it on TV.
I got called an feffin d?ckhead by their right winger because I had given him offside - 13 or 14 years old. The managers response - "if that's the only way they can win then let them cheat"
They were 6-2 up at the time.
Of course, he's been reported by our club and the referee but nothing will happen.
@eric_plant said:
This is the logical conclusion to a complete lack of respect for officials that permeates every level of the game from the top down I'm afraid.
Great post, thanks for sharing
I've known two young refs give it up in their late teens as they could not take the constant abuse from both 'adults' and young players.
I thought the referee already had the discretion to book players for waiving imaginary cards? They should have, and it could be used and the tactic ought to be stamped out.
Firstly, it would remove a layer of pressure from the officials at what is, by definition, a critical moment in a match. Secondly, it's disrespectful of fellow professionals - players and officials. Thirdly, it gets copied by younger players - as do all the bad habits.
@eric_plant said:
This is the logical conclusion to a complete lack of respect for officials that permeates every level of the game from the top down I'm afraid.
Great post, thanks for sharing
I've known two young refs give it up in their late teens as they could not take the constant abuse from both 'adults' and young players.
It's a shameful state of affairs. Football should have done far more already to address this issue.
I think Gaz does pretty well actually, he rarely mentions referees and when he does he always acknowledges what a hard job it is and how generally they do a very good job.
I know we all do it on here, but I have always felt it is pointless for managers to complain about referees (in public at least) after a match. I have no doubt Gaz has his say in private post-match. Like JJ it is best to just smile and shake your head, rather than get a reputation for arguing with officials. Baz Richardson used to do a lot of the League Two heavy lifting with regard to assessing officials during the game I seem to recall!
@OxfordBlue said:
Loathe to say it, football can learn a fair bit from rugby in this respect.
The only player permitted to speak to the referee should be the captain, unless spoken to.
Any other player or manager who speaks to the referee during play should be warned, and then carded for a second offence.
The managers can converse respectfully with the fourth official.
Any player or staff who abuse a referee or official should receive an immediate red.
Within 5 games the entire situation would be resolved.
I couldn't agree more! The issue they have is it would create absolute carnage for the first season or two. However, once managers, chairman, sponsors, fans and players knew it was zero tolerance and it was followed through 99% of the time, it would soon stop.
Even if that means games get abandoned because a team has 7 players or less remaining.
If only this could get the backing from all stakeholders, it would soon change for the better and quickly be stamped out.
@Commoner said:
I find the biggest issue is that a significant amount of players/managers will complain about every single decision and because of that it creeps down to every level of football.
I was linesman at an U14 Division 6 fixture recently, where the opposition manager should not have been anywhere near a junior match. Apparently he was an ex-pro/semi pro.
Berated the 17 year old referee for 70 minutes. Even when the ref stopped the game so the goalkeeper could do his laces up. The goalkeeper had the ball at the time in open play. He went apoplectic because the ball was meant to be out of play. Screamed for about a minute and a half at one point at the ref because he didn't give a free kick. The ref was correct.
His players were foul mouthed and completely disrespectful, which all came from his behaviour and no doubt some from watching it on TV.
I got called an feffin d?ckhead by their right winger because I had given him offside - 13 or 14 years old. The managers response - "if that's the only way they can win then let them cheat"
They were 6-2 up at the time.
Of course, he's been reported by our club and the referee but nothing will happen.
Anyway rant over!
I remember playing in some pub league and the ref right at the start just came over to both teams and said "you swear, you're in the book".
It didn't even have to be at him.
I think the first player tried it on, got booked, and funnily enough that was the end of it!
Great approach, but strangely rare.
In another game, I remember a ref getting a load of grief from both teams.
After the game it emerged that his son had been badly injured years earlier in those 7/7 attacks.
Compared to that, a bunch of overweight goons taking out their frustrations on him, must have felt so pathetically minor.
@EwanHoosaami said:
When then did the players cross to the dark side then @ReturnToSenda? I've been watching & playing the game for approximately 55 years. I certainly don't have a recollection of the professionals waving their hands about like "squirrels on crack" in the decades I mentioned earlier.
By the way I never said that the players were all mild mannered saints either. My peak attendance viewing was in the days of Chopper Harris, Norman bites yer legs Hunter, Billy Bremner, Tommy Smith to name but a few. I don't recall any of them waving their imaginary cards, even when revenge tackles were flying in.
Did they have yellow cards in those days? I’m trying to remember when they started. It was altars just a name going in the book. And I’m pretty sure I can remember seeing someone mime it on Match of the Day or similar. (Obviously not at Wycombe as back in those days bookings were rarer than Horgan goals)
@EwanHoosaami said:
When then did the players cross to the dark side then @ReturnToSenda? I've been watching & playing the game for approximately 55 years. I certainly don't have a recollection of the professionals waving their hands about like "squirrels on crack" in the decades I mentioned earlier.
By the way I never said that the players were all mild mannered saints either. My peak attendance viewing was in the days of Chopper Harris, Norman bites yer legs Hunter, Billy Bremner, Tommy Smith to name but a few. I don't recall any of them waving their imaginary cards, even when revenge tackles were flying in.
Did they have yellow cards in those days? I’m trying to remember when they started. It was altars just a name going in the book. And I’m pretty sure I can remember seeing someone mime it on Match of the Day or similar. (Obviously not at Wycombe as back in those days bookings were rarer than Horgan goals)
Bit harsh on Horgan
Although did anyone at all think he was going to hit the onion bag when racing clear against Gillingham?
@Commoner said:
I find the biggest issue is that a significant amount of players/managers will complain about every single decision and because of that it creeps down to every level of football.
I was linesman at an U14 Division 6 fixture recently, where the opposition manager should not have been anywhere near a junior match. Apparently he was an ex-pro/semi pro.
Berated the 17 year old referee for 70 minutes. Even when the ref stopped the game so the goalkeeper could do his laces up. The goalkeeper had the ball at the time in open play. He went apoplectic because the ball was meant to be out of play. Screamed for about a minute and a half at one point at the ref because he didn't give a free kick. The ref was correct.
His players were foul mouthed and completely disrespectful, which all came from his behaviour and no doubt some from watching it on TV.
I got called an feffin d?ckhead by their right winger because I had given him offside - 13 or 14 years old. The managers response - "if that's the only way they can win then let them cheat"
They were 6-2 up at the time.
Of course, he's been reported by our club and the referee but nothing will happen.
Anyway rant over!
I remember playing in some pub league and the ref right at the start just came over to both teams and said "you swear, you're in the book".
It didn't even have to be at him.
What an absolute jobsworth. So if someone stamps on your foot and you shout 'FUCK!' in agony, that's a booking? ?
Looking on the google...though players had been cautioned and sent off before it seems a clear system using red and yellow cards was first used in the 1970 World Cup. Who knew?
We used to have a ref in our Sunday league that always laid down the law before a game. Used to start by saying "I knew my father" so don't bother! In the book every time someone tried, even with an "oh ref". Games were a lot better for it and we knew how to use him to our advantage by keeping quiet and let the other team scream their way into the book. ??
Comments
Chopper Harris was by all accounts capable of waving an imaginary card without using his hands. He didn’t get his nickname based on his performance on the pitch.
Easy to miss the point here, in past years the game was a lot more physical and players got whacked and went down but mostly got whacked , got up again and got on with it. It is right that quicker skillful players get more protection these days but diving and begging/ hassling the ref are two massive ills that can and should be cut out. Otherwise you'll just get players rolling round and whining all day and no actual football.
Do you remember Franny Lee diving quite a bit?
I do indeed @Malone . Most clubs had a midfield enforcer capable of flying in akin to the Jason Cousins "flying machine" tackle v Doncaster. I also remember watching Rodney Marsh, when my dad used to take me to QPR, often tripping himself up in the box to win a penalty. He was a master at it.
That's my point, they didn't wave imaginary cards around, they just got up and got on with it, leaving the referee to make the decisions, good or bad.
Totally agree that surrounding the ref, hassling & begging is something else that has become prevalent in the modern game. Not sure when that became the norm either.
The stakes are so much higher now - which I guess you can ultimately put down to money, but the game is just a completely different beast. The intensity is absolutely off the scale these days and I think it follows that players' adrenaline is too (would be interested to read some sort of scientific study into this).
But I maintain that non-aggressive card-waving is neither here nor there
If I was a ref I'd book a player for waving an imaginary card
I think in the olden days they got up.because at some point in the game there was a good chance of being able to exact some high studded revenge of their own!
Peterborough could be relegated this Easter, if results go against them. From memory, I think a Reading win coupled with a Posh defeat on Friday sees them down.
So would I.
Why bother doing it then?
What is the acceptable action if someone absolutely stonks into one of your team mates?
A few options.
Imaginary card waving.
Storm into the ref and offending player en masse.
Storm to the ref solo
Stand still and scream that they should be off.
Gently comment to the ref that it's "his 4th or 5th foul", or "that's nasty"
Stand perfectly still, say nothing, do nothing.
Bayo had the right approach, arriving on the scene just as the Gillingham players were getting into Wing.
A gentle comment quietly in the refs ear. If he doesn't get sent off, mark his card for later on.
Hit em back, don't complain when you get a red?
The point is most of these appeals are for 50/50s at best, like when you "might have felt contact" which I still don't think is an offence, or where you whacked a ball at someones arm from 5cm away and somehow want a penalty.
You can see why they do it but it's embarrassing and it does make the overall game worse, and while you can apply that to lots of things I think this is an easy one to cut out.
I find the biggest issue is that a significant amount of players/managers will complain about every single decision and because of that it creeps down to every level of football.
I was linesman at an U14 Division 6 fixture recently, where the opposition manager should not have been anywhere near a junior match. Apparently he was an ex-pro/semi pro.
Berated the 17 year old referee for 70 minutes. Even when the ref stopped the game so the goalkeeper could do his laces up. The goalkeeper had the ball at the time in open play. He went apoplectic because the ball was meant to be out of play. Screamed for about a minute and a half at one point at the ref because he didn't give a free kick. The ref was correct.
His players were foul mouthed and completely disrespectful, which all came from his behaviour and no doubt some from watching it on TV.
I got called an feffin d?ckhead by their right winger because I had given him offside - 13 or 14 years old. The managers response - "if that's the only way they can win then let them cheat"
They were 6-2 up at the time.
Of course, he's been reported by our club and the referee but nothing will happen.
Anyway rant over!
This is the logical conclusion to a complete lack of respect for officials that permeates every level of the game from the top down I'm afraid.
Great post, thanks for sharing
Loathe to say it, football can learn a fair bit from rugby in this respect.
The only player permitted to speak to the referee should be the captain, unless spoken to.
Any other player or manager who speaks to the referee during play should be warned, and then carded for a second offence.
The managers can converse respectfully with the fourth official.
Any player or staff who abuse a referee or official should receive an immediate red.
Within 5 games the entire situation would be resolved.
I've known two young refs give it up in their late teens as they could not take the constant abuse from both 'adults' and young players.
I thought the referee already had the discretion to book players for waiving imaginary cards? They should have, and it could be used and the tactic ought to be stamped out.
Firstly, it would remove a layer of pressure from the officials at what is, by definition, a critical moment in a match. Secondly, it's disrespectful of fellow professionals - players and officials. Thirdly, it gets copied by younger players - as do all the bad habits.
It's a shameful state of affairs. Football should have done far more already to address this issue.
I think Gaz does pretty well actually, he rarely mentions referees and when he does he always acknowledges what a hard job it is and how generally they do a very good job.
I know we all do it on here, but I have always felt it is pointless for managers to complain about referees (in public at least) after a match. I have no doubt Gaz has his say in private post-match. Like JJ it is best to just smile and shake your head, rather than get a reputation for arguing with officials. Baz Richardson used to do a lot of the League Two heavy lifting with regard to assessing officials during the game I seem to recall!
I couldn't agree more! The issue they have is it would create absolute carnage for the first season or two. However, once managers, chairman, sponsors, fans and players knew it was zero tolerance and it was followed through 99% of the time, it would soon stop.
Even if that means games get abandoned because a team has 7 players or less remaining.
If only this could get the backing from all stakeholders, it would soon change for the better and quickly be stamped out.
I remember playing in some pub league and the ref right at the start just came over to both teams and said "you swear, you're in the book".
It didn't even have to be at him.
I think the first player tried it on, got booked, and funnily enough that was the end of it!
Great approach, but strangely rare.
In another game, I remember a ref getting a load of grief from both teams.
After the game it emerged that his son had been badly injured years earlier in those 7/7 attacks.
Compared to that, a bunch of overweight goons taking out their frustrations on him, must have felt so pathetically minor.
Did they have yellow cards in those days? I’m trying to remember when they started. It was altars just a name going in the book. And I’m pretty sure I can remember seeing someone mime it on Match of the Day or similar. (Obviously not at Wycombe as back in those days bookings were rarer than Horgan goals)
Bit harsh on Horgan
Although did anyone at all think he was going to hit the onion bag when racing clear against Gillingham?
What an absolute jobsworth. So if someone stamps on your foot and you shout 'FUCK!' in agony, that's a booking? ?
Looking on the google...though players had been cautioned and sent off before it seems a clear system using red and yellow cards was first used in the 1970 World Cup. Who knew?
We used to have a ref in our Sunday league that always laid down the law before a game. Used to start by saying "I knew my father" so don't bother! In the book every time someone tried, even with an "oh ref". Games were a lot better for it and we knew how to use him to our advantage by keeping quiet and let the other team scream their way into the book. ??
He's learnt a lot from his first ever Wycombe game in France, where he got sent off for lamping the opposition player.