I believe he may have had the odd stretch himself @DevC.
I’m not in the mood for splitting hairs. I genuinely thought that, during the time he was available to play professional football, more of that time was with Southend than with any other club.
Amused at @micra's insistence on Nile Ranger's Southend time
In fairness, less than 2 years is probably still about his highest time somewhere!!
Football is a strange game where only the worst crimes rule you out of getting back in.
I'm sure most of us grew up hearing that getting a criminal record ruled you out of a lot of jobs. Not football!
Fairly typical tactic from you. At no point did he indicate that someone with a criminal record "should" be prevented from getting any job
I don't think you can become a member of parliament with a criminal record, or at least a custodial conviction. There are very good reasons why people with certain prior convictions shouldn't be allowed a job in childcare, for example.
Actually that is not true. There are no rules against someone with a criminal record becoming an MP - rightly so in my opinion. (You can't if you are currently in jail serving a sentence over 12 mths).
There are some specific roles (eg sex offences - childcare) where ex-offenders cannot work due to obvious enhanced risk factors. These are very rare though. They certainly wouldn't apply to Nile Ranger's offences or for any offences to being a footballer.
If you don't want ex-offenders to work - how do you suggest they feed and house themselves?
Football is a bit different as players are supposed to be role models, and they represent thousands - if not millions - of people. I wouldn't want someone of Nile Ranger's character playing for my team.
I think @micra, you' may have misread Nile's wiki page. He did play for Southend 2016-18 (45 games). So his career with Southend did in fact span 5 years, as he played once in 2021 also. He just had a career break in the middle that's all.
I know I'm going to regret this, but I'm intrigued as to Dev's definition of an ex-offender. At what point does endless repeated recidivism stop them being ex?
@eric_plant said:
I do want ex-offenders to work, what on earth are you talking about?
Good I agree with you.
It would seem that others do not - at least in a visible role like a footballer. I disagree with that. Once they have served their sentence, except in very specific circumstances, ex-offenders have every right to work.
@drcongo said:
I know I'm going to regret this, but I'm intrigued as to Dev's definition of an ex-offender. At what point does endless repeated recidivism stop them being ex?
The accepted definition of an ex-offender is (or words to this effect) Ex-offender means any person who has been convicted of an offense and been released from any incarceration, paid all fines in conjunction with such conviction and been discharged from any probation or parole, if applicable.
Do you accept that ex-offenders under this definition should be allowed - arguably expected - to work and that a professional footballer is a perfectly reasonable form of employment.
@drcongo said:
I know I'm going to regret this, but I'm intrigued as to Dev's definition of an ex-offender. At what point does endless repeated recidivism stop them being ex?
I think they should be able to work, but I would not want a violent, misogynistic, homophobic, kleptomaniac at my club. You can want them all you want, but I don't.
Probably best not to carry on as a footballer, then...
I personally find chants based on a player's criminal past pretty tasteless (to the victims and their families), but it's hardly a surprise people do it.
Also, there's a massive difference between 'misdemeanours' and the kind of thing someone like Luke McCormick has done - for which you are going to get called every name under the sun (again, I wouldn't join in myself, but I wouldn't take issue with someone calling him a scumbag etc).
You think it is OK for morons to shout insults at an ex-offender at his place of work and seemingly blame the abused for going to his place of work rather than the abusers for being morons. I despair of what our country has become.
The chants aimed at Luke McCormick by our moronic fans (and others) as a bit of “banter” were every bit as bad, probably worse, than those aimed the other day at Bayo.
Dev has been pretty consistent on this over the years to be fair. It's his opinion and it's a valid one to hold.
What I don't think he has ever addressed though is the unique nature of being a professional footballer vs almost any other job. The very nature of the sport, and in particular the relationship between players and fans means that players can be collectively hero-worshipped and adored.
I wonder what thought he has given to the impact on his victims' family when they hear fans idolising him?
It's easy enough to say ex-offenders should be allowed to reintegrate into society and reform. Only a fool would disagree. But being a professional footballer is not just any old job, and even if he ultimately disagrees with them he must surely understand why people would have their misgivings?
It’s a fair point Eric.
It must be a nightmare being the family of a crime victim. Sooner or later, in the vast majority of cases, the perpetrator will come out into the community - often his home town. Your daughter’s rapist might drive the local bus, your sons pub brawler from which he has never fully recovered may work behind the toll at Sainsbury’s. It must be hard.
But unless we intend to throw away the key behind all criminals, they will come out and when they do they must be allowed to live their lives without abuse from the community. Stop them from working or further alienate them and it is only likely to lead to reoffending and more victims.
I don’t see a difference with footballers compared to bus drivers to be honest - most supporters are smart enough to cheer their performance on the field without necessarily endorsing their behaviour of it. I didnt see many Plymouth fans getting that balance wrong re McCormick - I did see opposition fans including ours behaving moronically.
As it happens McCormick was a decent guy - indeed but for the events of that evening he may well have been Plymouth’s Matt Bloomfield. But he made a terrible selfish mistake getting behind the wheel and then he was unlucky enough to hit someone where others - perhaps including gasroom posters in the past - got lucky and missed. McCormick has paid a heavy price for that stupidity but nowhere near as heavy a price of course as the Peak family.
Honestly, what is wrong with some people. There’s a video doing the rounds of Kurt Zouma kicking and slapping his cat. What goes through someone’s head when they think that that’s acceptable. West Ham have said they will deal with it internally but I really hope it goes further than that. Scum.
Without getting dragged into one of DevC posts, you also have to recognise that there are mechanisms in place to stop offenders returning to the same previous employment if they are caught doing something.
Any one that needs a job in a trusted position and needs a CRB check to make sure they are allowed to be in that setting.
Doctors/nurses/Health support workers can be struck off and banned from doing their job for lying and being untrustworthy.
I don’t think it’s too much to ask for footballers that kill, rape or have a history crime are asked not to continue that specific career path. Footballers, or any sports people, are a unique bunch in that they have social responsibilities that go beyond 90 minutes on a football pitch once or twice a week.
They can come back and work in society but they don’t have a right to do exactly what they were doing beforehand.
Comments
He returned to Southend in Feb 21 and left by early May having played all of 11mins.
Bit of a stretch to say he has been there five years.
I must admit I was not expecting Sunderland to implode so spectacularly again.
I believe he may have had the odd stretch himself @DevC.
I’m not in the mood for splitting hairs. I genuinely thought that, during the time he was available to play professional football, more of that time was with Southend than with any other club.
I’m tired now and have a meal to cook.
Incredible
Amused at @micra's insistence on Nile Ranger's Southend time
In fairness, less than 2 years is probably still about his highest time somewhere!!
Football is a strange game where only the worst crimes rule you out of getting back in.
I'm sure most of us grew up hearing that getting a criminal record ruled you out of a lot of jobs. Not football!
Not sure we did, @Malone
Which jobs do you think a criminal record should rule you out of?
Fairly typical tactic from you. At no point did he indicate that someone with a criminal record "should" be prevented from getting any job
I don't think you can become a member of parliament with a criminal record, or at least a custodial conviction. There are very good reasons why people with certain prior convictions shouldn't be allowed a job in childcare, for example.
Actually that is not true. There are no rules against someone with a criminal record becoming an MP - rightly so in my opinion. (You can't if you are currently in jail serving a sentence over 12 mths).
There are some specific roles (eg sex offences - childcare) where ex-offenders cannot work due to obvious enhanced risk factors. These are very rare though. They certainly wouldn't apply to Nile Ranger's offences or for any offences to being a footballer.
If you don't want ex-offenders to work - how do you suggest they feed and house themselves?
I do want ex-offenders to work, what on earth are you talking about?
Football is a bit different as players are supposed to be role models, and they represent thousands - if not millions - of people. I wouldn't want someone of Nile Ranger's character playing for my team.
I think @micra, you' may have misread Nile's wiki page. He did play for Southend 2016-18 (45 games). So his career with Southend did in fact span 5 years, as he played once in 2021 also. He just had a career break in the middle that's all.
I know I'm going to regret this, but I'm intrigued as to Dev's definition of an ex-offender. At what point does endless repeated recidivism stop them being ex?
Good I agree with you.
It would seem that others do not - at least in a visible role like a footballer. I disagree with that. Once they have served their sentence, except in very specific circumstances, ex-offenders have every right to work.
Kick them out of the competition.
The accepted definition of an ex-offender is (or words to this effect) Ex-offender means any person who has been convicted of an offense and been released from any incarceration, paid all fines in conjunction with such conviction and been discharged from any probation or parole, if applicable.
Do you accept that ex-offenders under this definition should be allowed - arguably expected - to work and that a professional footballer is a perfectly reasonable form of employment.
You never learn!
I think they should be able to work, but I would not want a violent, misogynistic, homophobic, kleptomaniac at my club. You can want them all you want, but I don't.
I think they should be able to work without being abused for past misdemeanours too.
I don’t imagine Gareth will sign Nile Ranger.
Probably best not to carry on as a footballer, then...
I personally find chants based on a player's criminal past pretty tasteless (to the victims and their families), but it's hardly a surprise people do it.
Also, there's a massive difference between 'misdemeanours' and the kind of thing someone like Luke McCormick has done - for which you are going to get called every name under the sun (again, I wouldn't join in myself, but I wouldn't take issue with someone calling him a scumbag etc).
You think it is OK for morons to shout insults at an ex-offender at his place of work and seemingly blame the abused for going to his place of work rather than the abusers for being morons. I despair of what our country has become.
The chants aimed at Luke McCormick by our moronic fans (and others) as a bit of “banter” were every bit as bad, probably worse, than those aimed the other day at Bayo.
Well yes, he tore a family apart and reducing their beyond devastating loss to 'banter' is sickening.
But you can't seriously think that someone like that is going to be welcomed back to their 'place of work' with open arms.
Only on the Gasroom would a guy who killed two children while drink-driving at twice the limit be spun as a victim.
Dev has been pretty consistent on this over the years to be fair. It's his opinion and it's a valid one to hold.
What I don't think he has ever addressed though is the unique nature of being a professional footballer vs almost any other job. The very nature of the sport, and in particular the relationship between players and fans means that players can be collectively hero-worshipped and adored.
I wonder what thought he has given to the impact on his victims' family when they hear fans idolising him?
It's easy enough to say ex-offenders should be allowed to reintegrate into society and reform. Only a fool would disagree. But being a professional footballer is not just any old job, and even if he ultimately disagrees with them he must surely understand why people would have their misgivings?
It’s a fair point Eric.
It must be a nightmare being the family of a crime victim. Sooner or later, in the vast majority of cases, the perpetrator will come out into the community - often his home town. Your daughter’s rapist might drive the local bus, your sons pub brawler from which he has never fully recovered may work behind the toll at Sainsbury’s. It must be hard.
But unless we intend to throw away the key behind all criminals, they will come out and when they do they must be allowed to live their lives without abuse from the community. Stop them from working or further alienate them and it is only likely to lead to reoffending and more victims.
I don’t see a difference with footballers compared to bus drivers to be honest - most supporters are smart enough to cheer their performance on the field without necessarily endorsing their behaviour of it. I didnt see many Plymouth fans getting that balance wrong re McCormick - I did see opposition fans including ours behaving moronically.
As it happens McCormick was a decent guy - indeed but for the events of that evening he may well have been Plymouth’s Matt Bloomfield. But he made a terrible selfish mistake getting behind the wheel and then he was unlucky enough to hit someone where others - perhaps including gasroom posters in the past - got lucky and missed. McCormick has paid a heavy price for that stupidity but nowhere near as heavy a price of course as the Peak family.
At least @DevC accepts there are 'enhanced risk factors' in employing sex offenders in certain sectors.
My daughter's rapist would not be driving a local bus for very long, I can heartily assure you.
First time reading Dev's stuff?
Honestly, what is wrong with some people. There’s a video doing the rounds of Kurt Zouma kicking and slapping his cat. What goes through someone’s head when they think that that’s acceptable. West Ham have said they will deal with it internally but I really hope it goes further than that. Scum.
Without getting dragged into one of DevC posts, you also have to recognise that there are mechanisms in place to stop offenders returning to the same previous employment if they are caught doing something.
Any one that needs a job in a trusted position and needs a CRB check to make sure they are allowed to be in that setting.
Doctors/nurses/Health support workers can be struck off and banned from doing their job for lying and being untrustworthy.
I don’t think it’s too much to ask for footballers that kill, rape or have a history crime are asked not to continue that specific career path. Footballers, or any sports people, are a unique bunch in that they have social responsibilities that go beyond 90 minutes on a football pitch once or twice a week.
They can come back and work in society but they don’t have a right to do exactly what they were doing beforehand.