Excuse the French, but fuck me what a bunch of bigoted gammon melts. If they are so offended by footballers taking a stand against racism, they deserve everything they get.
Much as I do like a good nuanced and logical debate, having had a rather decent glass of Merlot (well the pubs are shut up here) and a quick reflection, I would like to suggest that some things do need to be binary (or, if you like, black and white).
Regarding the decision to boo players taking the knee by the majority (so it sounded like) of Millwall supporters, you can either:
A) agree with it disagree with it
C) have insufficient information to make a decision
(Potentially D if you don’t really have a view)
The problem is that the dialogue (rightly or wrongly but I personally believe rightly) has moved to widely conclude that A) means that those booing were behaving in a racist way and that by going with A) now, in the current debate you are supporting a racist act.
By going therefore you are now supporting an anti-racist viewpoint.
C) is a perfect legitimate, logical and defensible response. However, the problem is that in a world where the debate effectively demands an ‘are you for us or against us’ response sitting on the fence can be seen as being ‘not against’ a position widely accepted as being racist.
As an enthusiastic fence sitter by inclination even I can see what an uncomfortable (albeit morally sound) position that is.
D) of course is perfectly valid if you are less than 9 years old.
@HCblue said:
This, in a nutshell, is what is wrong and the reason for my right-think handbook question earlier. The idea that, in the eyes of some, change of the kind they envisage is deemed essential, as though it is self-evident, and that people who don't see it the same way and thus resist their call to "orthodoxy" are responsible for the divide that results and should be removed from society is so very much the model of authoritianism and illiberalism. I am firmly opposed to what you wrote for this reason.
This has nothing to do with anyone needing a handbook as you well know. Are you saying that racism is not self-evidently wrong?
Yes. Yes, that is obviously what I am saying. Has it not always been clear that I favour a society divided along racial grounds? For why else would I say something you don't immediately recognise as being correct?
Good grief.
Good to see you still can’t answer a direct question, but yes, that really does appear to be what you’re saying. After all you’ve spent 9 pages arguing for racists’ right to boo players making a stand against racism.
Excuse the French, but fuck me what a bunch of bigoted gammon melts. If they are so offended by footballers taking a stand against racism, they deserve everything they get.
"You know the next headline.millwalll star driven away by racists"
Well yes, I imagine that probably would be the headline if a player was driven away by racists - as looks very possible at this moment.
@Username said:
And much like brexit shitshow unraveling now exactly as remainers warned, in hind sight in a few years it will be a fairly unanimous decision on which side was "right".
However though, if the 36% of your 'generation that is going to shape the world' who couldn't be bothered to get their a---s out of bed and down to the polling station to vote in 2016, had done just that, we might have had a different result.
Particularly amongst those of us who are going to shape the world...
What makes you so convinced that you and your ilk are necessarily going to shape the world? Just interested.
They'll shape the world. But I'm wondering why he doesn't see that it could easily be in a bad way.
I have no idea why my comment would mean I'm a racist sympathiser, I'm anything but. Taking the knee is pointless unless there's a specific aim and a timescale. Saying it'll end when racism ends is nonsense, for obvious reasons, and if everyone does it forever it becomes meaningless. All that's happening is that a rift is being created between those who take the knee and those who don't. That's what some people want.
I have no idea why my comment would mean I'm a racist sympathiser, I'm anything but. Taking the knee is pointless unless there's a specific aim and a timescale. Saying it'll end when racism ends is nonsense, for obvious reasons, and if everyone does it forever it becomes meaningless. All that's happening is that a rift is being created between those who take the knee and those who don't. That's what some people want.
A better post than I anticipated and for that I take back the initial angst (geared up by a pretty large amount of nonsense through previous pages). Yes, much more needs to be done than taking the knee. I am sure everyone on this page hopefully agrees with that. It only takes a 1 minute look at the Millwall forum to realise that they were hardly booing the taking of the knee because they believe that MORE needs to be done to tackle racism. I'm not sure equating the taking of the knee to "the emperors new clothes" is exactly helpful and does more to support the Millwal fans actions than to suggest that taking the knee can be used as a symbol alongside other actions.
Actually, maybe @LDF has thought this through and come up with the one true way to end racism forever, AND do it on a timescale! Tell us oh great one, what is the one true way?
If all taking the knee does is mean that racists are excluded from going to the football, at least it will have created one part of society that is closer to being equal. Who knows maybe other sectors will follow?
It's highlighting the need for further change, and the reaction to it only emphasises how far we've got to go.
Could that be because you've got into a way of thinking that says one organization or ideology holds the key to combatting racism? Now I'm not going to try and second guess the motives of each Millwall fan but I think it's reasonable to suppose there would have been a range of reasons why they booed and tarring them all with the same brush would be close to the mindset of the racist. I think that taking the knee has run its course and I have more to say on the BLM movement than I've got room for here but my point is that to keep it up is empty posturing and nobody's been brave enough to say it - hence the emperor's new clothes remark.
If tomorrow night at Millwall, or any other ground, the stadium announcer says that "the players are to take a knee as a signal of protest against racism, not in support of any political party" , and then people boo, what would your reaction be, and what would you expect the club involved to do?
If tomorrow night at Millwall, or any other ground, the stadium announcer says that "the players are to take a knee as a signal of protest against racism, not in support of any political party" , and then people boo, what would your reaction be, and what would you expect the club involved to do?
I would have no expectations. And I'm a confirmed non-booer, as I've already said. And, finally, I'd withhold judgement.
Could that be because you've got into a way of thinking that says one organization or ideology holds the key to combatting racism? Now I'm not going to try and second guess the motives of each Millwall fan but I think it's reasonable to suppose there would have been a range of reasons why they booed and tarring them all with the same brush would be close to the mindset of the racist. I think that taking the knee has run its course and I have more to say on the BLM movement than I've got room for here but my point is that to keep it up is empty posturing and nobody's been brave enough to say it - hence the emperor's new clothes remark.
What are your thoughts on the Colchester chairman's statement today out of interest?
If tomorrow night at Millwall, or any other ground, the stadium announcer says that "the players are to take a knee as a signal of protest against racism, not in support of any political party" , and then people boo, what would your reaction be, and what would you expect the club involved to do?
I would have no expectations. And I'm a confirmed non-booer, as I've already said.
Ok, I'll try a slightly different one see if I can get an answer.
What would you do if you were at AP in that situation and someone next to you boo'd?
If tomorrow night at Millwall, or any other ground, the stadium announcer says that "the players are to take a knee as a signal of protest against racism, not in support of any political party" , and then people boo, what would your reaction be, and what would you expect the club involved to do?
I would have no expectations. And I'm a confirmed non-booer, as I've already said.
Ok, I'll try a slightly different one see if I can get an answer.
What would you do if you were at AP in that situation and someone next to you boo'd?
That's more interesting since it would be more likely to offer the opportunity to find out their motivation.
@Username said:
If the stadium announcer has just said that the taking the knee is not in support of any political party, their motivation has already been stated
It is nonetheless possible that they do not see the matter as apolitical. And in any event, I was referring to the motivation of the theoretical booer, not the stadium announcer.
Then what's the point at all if any anti-racism movement or any protest full stop can just immediately be branded as political by any idiot, even when the people doing the action are specifically saying it isn't.
At that point, when it's spelt out in black and white, things sometimes are black and white.
The scenario I put forward use pretty likely to happen tomorrow, Millwall will likely make a similar statement about players taking the knee/ it not being political and people will boo, and at that point there is no doubt, it is a racism problem.
Comments
Excuse the French, but fuck me what a bunch of bigoted gammon melts. If they are so offended by footballers taking a stand against racism, they deserve everything they get.
Much as I do like a good nuanced and logical debate, having had a rather decent glass of Merlot (well the pubs are shut up here) and a quick reflection, I would like to suggest that some things do need to be binary (or, if you like, black and white).
Regarding the decision to boo players taking the knee by the majority (so it sounded like) of Millwall supporters, you can either:
A) agree with it
disagree with it
C) have insufficient information to make a decision
(Potentially D if you don’t really have a view)
The problem is that the dialogue (rightly or wrongly but I personally believe rightly) has moved to widely conclude that A) means that those booing were behaving in a racist way and that by going with A) now, in the current debate you are supporting a racist act.
By going
therefore you are now supporting an anti-racist viewpoint.
C) is a perfect legitimate, logical and defensible response. However, the problem is that in a world where the debate effectively demands an ‘are you for us or against us’ response sitting on the fence can be seen as being ‘not against’ a position widely accepted as being racist.
As an enthusiastic fence sitter by inclination even I can see what an uncomfortable (albeit morally sound) position that is.
D) of course is perfectly valid if you are less than 9 years old.
Dont want to get involved... but can I just put a vote in for Cornflakes
Good to see you still can’t answer a direct question, but yes, that really does appear to be what you’re saying. After all you’ve spent 9 pages arguing for racists’ right to boo players making a stand against racism.
"You know the next headline.millwalll star driven away by racists"
Well yes, I imagine that probably would be the headline if a player was driven away by racists - as looks very possible at this moment.
However though, if the 36% of your 'generation that is going to shape the world' who couldn't be bothered to get their a---s out of bed and down to the polling station to vote in 2016, had done just that, we might have had a different result.
That really is the supreme irony.
They'll shape the world. But I'm wondering why he doesn't see that it could easily be in a bad way.
The Millwall fans have dared to point out that the emperor's not wearing any clothes.
Anyone disagreeing with my comment like to explain why I'm wrong?
Do we assume you have any points to make other than being a racist sympathiser? If that's all then I can't imagine there's much discussion to be had.
And how much discussion do you think he would be minded to have with someone willing to make such an assumption?
A morally bankrupt choice.
I have no idea why my comment would mean I'm a racist sympathiser, I'm anything but. Taking the knee is pointless unless there's a specific aim and a timescale. Saying it'll end when racism ends is nonsense, for obvious reasons, and if everyone does it forever it becomes meaningless. All that's happening is that a rift is being created between those who take the knee and those who don't. That's what some people want.
A better post than I anticipated and for that I take back the initial angst (geared up by a pretty large amount of nonsense through previous pages). Yes, much more needs to be done than taking the knee. I am sure everyone on this page hopefully agrees with that. It only takes a 1 minute look at the Millwall forum to realise that they were hardly booing the taking of the knee because they believe that MORE needs to be done to tackle racism. I'm not sure equating the taking of the knee to "the emperors new clothes" is exactly helpful and does more to support the Millwal fans actions than to suggest that taking the knee can be used as a symbol alongside other actions.
QPR and Millwall players to stand arm-in-arm with each other and "QPR have informed Millwall that a selection of our players also wish to take the knee". https://www.qpr.co.uk/news/club-news/club-statement-millwall-v-qpr/
We need a poll ! Or another cup competition to find the winner !
Because incremental change is impossible? You haven’t thought this through.
Actually, maybe @LDF has thought this through and come up with the one true way to end racism forever, AND do it on a timescale! Tell us oh great one, what is the one true way?
If all taking the knee does is mean that racists are excluded from going to the football, at least it will have created one part of society that is closer to being equal. Who knows maybe other sectors will follow?
It's highlighting the need for further change, and the reaction to it only emphasises how far we've got to go.
New statement from Millwall: https://www.millwallfc.co.uk/news/2020/december/united-for-change/
A better post than I anticipated
Could that be because you've got into a way of thinking that says one organization or ideology holds the key to combatting racism? Now I'm not going to try and second guess the motives of each Millwall fan but I think it's reasonable to suppose there would have been a range of reasons why they booed and tarring them all with the same brush would be close to the mindset of the racist. I think that taking the knee has run its course and I have more to say on the BLM movement than I've got room for here but my point is that to keep it up is empty posturing and nobody's been brave enough to say it - hence the emperor's new clothes remark.
Question for @HCblue
If tomorrow night at Millwall, or any other ground, the stadium announcer says that "the players are to take a knee as a signal of protest against racism, not in support of any political party" , and then people boo, what would your reaction be, and what would you expect the club involved to do?
I would have no expectations. And I'm a confirmed non-booer, as I've already said. And, finally, I'd withhold judgement.
What are your thoughts on the Colchester chairman's statement today out of interest?
Ok, I'll try a slightly different one see if I can get an answer.
What would you do if you were at AP in that situation and someone next to you boo'd?
That's more interesting since it would be more likely to offer the opportunity to find out their motivation.
If the stadium announcer has just said that the taking the knee is not in support of any political party, their motivation has already been stated
It is nonetheless possible that they do not see the matter as apolitical. And in any event, I was referring to the motivation of the theoretical booer, not the stadium announcer.
Then what's the point at all if any anti-racism movement or any protest full stop can just immediately be branded as political by any idiot, even when the people doing the action are specifically saying it isn't.
At that point, when it's spelt out in black and white, things sometimes are black and white.
The scenario I put forward use pretty likely to happen tomorrow, Millwall will likely make a similar statement about players taking the knee/ it not being political and people will boo, and at that point there is no doubt, it is a racism problem.
It clearly isn’t apolitical.