The general trend in this country with regards to racial and gender acceptance is definitely in the right direction.
My (mixed race) children have very rarely experienced any overt racism at school or around town, which is massively different to their mother’s experience a generation ago.
Their school friends who express non-heterosexual leanings are broadly supported by their peers and there appears to be little of the threat and fear that I remember for those so inclined back in my day.
Given the positive role-models in sport, entertainment, etc this is all likely to help.
Not to say that racism isn’t still out there. Social media allows people with racist views to feed off each other and emboldens them to act. We need as a society to find a way to diffuse this.
More concerning to me is the relatively recent move to demonise East Europeans, which seems to be where the powers that be want to direct a lot of those people we would generally consider racist.
There does seem to be a need for governments to find scapegoats, perhaps to hide their own inefficiencies.
Overall I’m optimistic about the country my children will inherit. It is on the whole a liberal, tolerant, multi-cultural country in spite of our leaders best attempts to screw it up.
Every time any of us support gestures, virtual signalling, etc that provides succour to the BAME community we are helping to firm the foundations for a better future.
But, please feel free not to if that isn’t the future you want to. Or even if it is.
Saw that earlier, all pretty vile. Would be a huge message if enough of their squad took a stand, maybe the demise of their club would finally get through to some of them that they're out of touch.
Their club management surely sees that theres no future for the club in the TV age if they don't do something quickly. After tomorrow I'm sure they'll be behind closed doors for a while..
On that note, if other clubs take the knee at Millwall and are booed, surely that would warrant walking off then pitch as players have been encouraged to do before, that would force the FAs hand.
Could genuinely see our squad of strong characters being sure enough of their views to do that if they felt it was right.
That thread on the Millwall forum is hilarious. Every other post is someone listing a black player they don’t hate as proof that they’re not a racist. “I’m not racist, some of my best friends players are black”
@Username said:
And it's changing in one direction....
What do you think that means if you're opposing that?
I'd be interested to know what it is you think I'm opposed to.
You've spent quite a lot of time defending a stand point that opposes an anti-racism movement, so you tell me what conclusion I'm likely to draw?
I'm opposed to the un-nuanced thinking that underpins the anti-racist movement which seems to me to make it as likely to lead to race relations becoming worse as make them better, to the breathtaking illiberalism produced by the absolute confidence in the correctness of their position that allows people like @drcongo to assume anyone questioning that perspective is a (pick your own epithet, apparently) right-wing, unthinking automaton informed only by narrow exposure to some social commentator or other of whom he disapproves and to the certainty expressed by those such as yourself who seem to think that they have the final word in correctness of thought and that it is only a matter of time before the world moves in line with the way they think it should be. I'm also as opposed to racism as the next person but I'm not willing to make the firm judgements about every event that hits the news that apparently all right-thinking people do now, if they know what's good for them at least, nor to make mind-reading assumptions about the real intention behind the words of people I suspect may hold different views to me.
Interesting to read "fck off to Wycombe you wnker" on Page 2 of these mostly disgraceful comments from Millwall fans. I dare say a young man with his principles and outlook on life would be welcomed into our tight-knit squad with open arms.
@bookertease said:
I’m obviously a crap mind reader @HCblue as you clearly aren’t a racist but that’s not how I’ve read “the real intention behind [your] words...”
My apologies for such a careless assumption on my part
I'm afraid I just don't get this one. Could you please explain what you mean to say?
I think you're right in that race relations are going to get slightly worse in the very short term, that's an obvious consequence of an anti racism movement gaining traction- that the racists feel threatened and fight back. If the movement isn't massively pissing off the racists -including the many who don't see themselves as racist but by definition are, then the movement would be pointless... See kick it out.
Progress can't be made without some"division" though, because without certain people being removed from acceptable society, it grows again.
The divide is caused by people not being willing to change their language or views, two things which can be changed, or at least put on a leash in public.
The other option of black/brown/ Chinese etc etc becoming white to appease people isn't a realistic one.
Our society may now mixed and progressive enough that a big enough proportion of people aren't prepared to wait for change to happen for another 3/4 generations as they've seen happen in the past and they're willing to cause some collateral damage to get there.
@Username said:
And it's changing in one direction....
What do you think that means if you're opposing that?
I'd be interested to know what it is you think I'm opposed to.
You've spent quite a lot of time defending a stand point that opposes an anti-racism movement, so you tell me what conclusion I'm likely to draw?
I'm opposed to the un-nuanced thinking that underpins the anti-racist movement which seems to me to make it as likely to lead to race relations becoming worse as make them better, to the breathtaking illiberalism produced by the absolute confidence in the correctness of their position that allows people like @drcongo to assume anyone questioning that perspective is a (pick your own epithet, apparently) right-wing, unthinking automaton informed only by narrow exposure to some social commentator or other of whom he disapproves and to the certainty expressed by those such as yourself who seem to think that they have the final word in correctness of thought and that it is only a matter of time before the world moves in line with the way they think it should be. I'm also as opposed to racism as the next person but I'm not willing to make the firm judgements about every event that hits the news that apparently all right-thinking people do now, if they know what's good for them at least, nor to make mind-reading assumptions about the real intention behind the words of people I suspect may hold different views to me.
Among other things.
Good post. You could boil the 'politically correct' way of thinking down to a few basic statements if you wanted to...
Everyone who votes Conservative is a racist. Wrong.
Everyone who voted for Brexit is a racist.
Wrong.
Everyone who reads the Daily Mail is a racist.
Wrong.
The world isn't as black and white as that, fortunately.
@Username said:
The divide is caused by people not being willing to change their language or views, two things which can be changed, or at least put on a leash in public.
This, in a nutshell, is what is wrong and the reason for my right-think handbook question earlier. The idea that, in the eyes of some, change of the kind they envisage is deemed essential, as though it is self-evident, and that people who don't see it the same way and thus resist their call to "orthodoxy" are responsible for the divide that results and should be removed from society is so very much the model of authoritianism and illiberalism. I am firmly opposed to what you wrote for this reason.
@Username said:
And it's changing in one direction....
What do you think that means if you're opposing that?
I'd be interested to know what it is you think I'm opposed to.
You've spent quite a lot of time defending a stand point that opposes an anti-racism movement, so you tell me what conclusion I'm likely to draw?
I'm opposed to the un-nuanced thinking that underpins the anti-racist movement which seems to me to make it as likely to lead to race relations becoming worse as make them better, to the breathtaking illiberalism produced by the absolute confidence in the correctness of their position that allows people like @drcongo to assume anyone questioning that perspective is a (pick your own epithet, apparently) right-wing, unthinking automaton informed only by narrow exposure to some social commentator or other of whom he disapproves and to the certainty expressed by those such as yourself who seem to think that they have the final word in correctness of thought and that it is only a matter of time before the world moves in line with the way they think it should be. I'm also as opposed to racism as the next person but I'm not willing to make the firm judgements about every event that hits the news that apparently all right-thinking people do now, if they know what's good for them at least, nor to make mind-reading assumptions about the real intention behind the words of people I suspect may hold different views to me.
Among other things.
Good post. You could boil the 'politically correct' way of thinking down to a few basic statements if you wanted to...
Everyone who votes Conservative is a racist. Wrong.
Everyone who voted for Brexit is a racist
Wrong.
Everyone who reads the Daily Mail is a racist
Wrong.
The world isn't as black and white as that, fortunately.
Much like the brexit argument, one side is dealing in facts and reality, the other is dealing in "patriotism" and lies to rile up the angry and uneducated
And much like brexit shitshow unraveling now exactly as remainers warned, in hind sight in a few years it will be a fairly unanimous decision on which side was "right".
@Username said:
And it's changing in one direction....
What do you think that means if you're opposing that?
I'd be interested to know what it is you think I'm opposed to.
You've spent quite a lot of time defending a stand point that opposes an anti-racism movement, so you tell me what conclusion I'm likely to draw?
I'm opposed to the un-nuanced thinking that underpins the anti-racist movement which seems to me to make it as likely to lead to race relations becoming worse as make them better, to the breathtaking illiberalism produced by the absolute confidence in the correctness of their position that allows people like @drcongo to assume anyone questioning that perspective is a (pick your own epithet, apparently) right-wing, unthinking automaton informed only by narrow exposure to some social commentator or other of whom he disapproves and to the certainty expressed by those such as yourself who seem to think that they have the final word in correctness of thought and that it is only a matter of time before the world moves in line with the way they think it should be. I'm also as opposed to racism as the next person but I'm not willing to make the firm judgements about every event that hits the news that apparently all right-thinking people do now, if they know what's good for them at least, nor to make mind-reading assumptions about the real intention behind the words of people I suspect may hold different views to me.
Among other things.
Good post. You could boil the 'politically correct' way of thinking down to a few basic statements if you wanted to...
Everyone who votes Conservative is a racist. Wrong.
Everyone who voted for Brexit is a racist
Wrong.
Everyone who reads the Daily Mail is a racist
Wrong.
The world isn't as black and white as that, fortunately.
Much like the brexit argument, one side is dealing in facts and reality, the other is dealing in "patriotism" and lies to rile up the angry and uneducated
And much like brexit shitshow unraveling now exactly as remainers warned, in hind sight in a few years it will be a fairly unanimous decision on which side was "right".
As @NewburyWanderer said, fortunately the world is not so black and white as you would have it.
@HCblue said:
Perhaps you'd like to be in charge of producing the acceptable words, behaviour and ideas manual that will presumably be necessary to ensure everyone manifests the correct persona at all times in your imagined utopia. I can't see this ending badly.
Wait a second... I dimly remember you once said you were a teacher. You're Will Knowland, recently dismissed from Eton, right?
@HCblue said:
Perhaps you'd like to be in charge of producing the acceptable words, behaviour and ideas manual that will presumably be necessary to ensure everyone manifests the correct persona at all times in your imagined utopia. I can't see this ending badly.
Wait a second... I dimly remember you once said you were a teacher. You're Will Knowland, recently dismissed from Eton, right?
I imagine he had to referee matches on Saturday afternoons.
Had a little read of that Millwall fans forum. Honestly some of the most disgusting comments I've ever seen, but one highlight was one particular poster sharing a petition signed by 100,000 others stating that Millwall's position was NOT racist and that everyone should stand by them. Who started that petition you ask? The leader of Britain First. You couldn't make it up.
@Chris said:
I fear that we will learn on Brexit that it had one clear right answer.
I hope you are mistaken but I've always been a "better off together" type of character, especially when considering European history, and tend to the same view. I'm hoping we will find some benefits to having greater independence in the world that currently seem unlikely to me to materialise.
@HCblue said:
This, in a nutshell, is what is wrong and the reason for my right-think handbook question earlier. The idea that, in the eyes of some, change of the kind they envisage is deemed essential, as though it is self-evident, and that people who don't see it the same way and thus resist their call to "orthodoxy" are responsible for the divide that results and should be removed from society is so very much the model of authoritianism and illiberalism. I am firmly opposed to what you wrote for this reason.
This has nothing to do with anyone needing a handbook as you well know. Are you saying that racism is not self-evidently wrong?
Some weird stuff above, I hope it's a bit more in depth than just people not wanting to be told what to do by society and thinking that is the same or worse than being racially abused but I'm not convinced.
@HCblue said:
This, in a nutshell, is what is wrong and the reason for my right-think handbook question earlier. The idea that, in the eyes of some, change of the kind they envisage is deemed essential, as though it is self-evident, and that people who don't see it the same way and thus resist their call to "orthodoxy" are responsible for the divide that results and should be removed from society is so very much the model of authoritianism and illiberalism. I am firmly opposed to what you wrote for this reason.
This has nothing to do with anyone needing a handbook as you well know. Are you saying that racism is not self-evidently wrong?
Yes. Yes, that is obviously what I am saying. Has it not always been clear that I favour a society divided along racial grounds? For why else would I say something you don't immediately recognise as being correct?
Comments
I'd be interested to know what it is you think I'm opposed to.
You've spent quite a lot of time defending a stand point that opposes an anti-racism movement, so you tell me what conclusion I'm likely to draw?
well he won't get much sympathy if he has (although some are arguing in his defence):
https://millwall-forum.vitalfootball.co.uk/threads/romeo.45532/
The general trend in this country with regards to racial and gender acceptance is definitely in the right direction.
My (mixed race) children have very rarely experienced any overt racism at school or around town, which is massively different to their mother’s experience a generation ago.
Their school friends who express non-heterosexual leanings are broadly supported by their peers and there appears to be little of the threat and fear that I remember for those so inclined back in my day.
Given the positive role-models in sport, entertainment, etc this is all likely to help.
Not to say that racism isn’t still out there. Social media allows people with racist views to feed off each other and emboldens them to act. We need as a society to find a way to diffuse this.
More concerning to me is the relatively recent move to demonise East Europeans, which seems to be where the powers that be want to direct a lot of those people we would generally consider racist.
There does seem to be a need for governments to find scapegoats, perhaps to hide their own inefficiencies.
Overall I’m optimistic about the country my children will inherit. It is on the whole a liberal, tolerant, multi-cultural country in spite of our leaders best attempts to screw it up.
Every time any of us support gestures, virtual signalling, etc that provides succour to the BAME community we are helping to firm the foundations for a better future.
But, please feel free not to if that isn’t the future you want to. Or even if it is.
Saw that earlier, all pretty vile. Would be a huge message if enough of their squad took a stand, maybe the demise of their club would finally get through to some of them that they're out of touch.
Their club management surely sees that theres no future for the club in the TV age if they don't do something quickly. After tomorrow I'm sure they'll be behind closed doors for a while..
On that note, if other clubs take the knee at Millwall and are booed, surely that would warrant walking off then pitch as players have been encouraged to do before, that would force the FAs hand.
Could genuinely see our squad of strong characters being sure enough of their views to do that if they felt it was right.
That thread on the Millwall forum is hilarious. Every other post is someone listing a black player they don’t hate as proof that they’re not a racist. “I’m not racist, some of my best friends players are black”
I'm opposed to the un-nuanced thinking that underpins the anti-racist movement which seems to me to make it as likely to lead to race relations becoming worse as make them better, to the breathtaking illiberalism produced by the absolute confidence in the correctness of their position that allows people like @drcongo to assume anyone questioning that perspective is a (pick your own epithet, apparently) right-wing, unthinking automaton informed only by narrow exposure to some social commentator or other of whom he disapproves and to the certainty expressed by those such as yourself who seem to think that they have the final word in correctness of thought and that it is only a matter of time before the world moves in line with the way they think it should be. I'm also as opposed to racism as the next person but I'm not willing to make the firm judgements about every event that hits the news that apparently all right-thinking people do now, if they know what's good for them at least, nor to make mind-reading assumptions about the real intention behind the words of people I suspect may hold different views to me.
Among other things.
Interesting to read "fck off to Wycombe you wnker" on Page 2 of these mostly disgraceful comments from Millwall fans. I dare say a young man with his principles and outlook on life would be welcomed into our tight-knit squad with open arms.
I’m obviously a crap mind reader @HCblue as you clearly aren’t a racist but that’s not how I’ve read “the real intention behind [your] words...”
My apologies for such a careless assumption on my part
I'm afraid I just don't get this one. Could you please explain what you mean to say?
I think you're right in that race relations are going to get slightly worse in the very short term, that's an obvious consequence of an anti racism movement gaining traction- that the racists feel threatened and fight back. If the movement isn't massively pissing off the racists -including the many who don't see themselves as racist but by definition are, then the movement would be pointless... See kick it out.
Progress can't be made without some"division" though, because without certain people being removed from acceptable society, it grows again.
The divide is caused by people not being willing to change their language or views, two things which can be changed, or at least put on a leash in public.
The other option of black/brown/ Chinese etc etc becoming white to appease people isn't a realistic one.
Our society may now mixed and progressive enough that a big enough proportion of people aren't prepared to wait for change to happen for another 3/4 generations as they've seen happen in the past and they're willing to cause some collateral damage to get there.
Frosties are definitely better than Rice Krispies.
Objectively so.
Well I know that now, obviously.
But trumped by Crunchy Nut Cornflakes
Agreed.
Good post. You could boil the 'politically correct' way of thinking down to a few basic statements if you wanted to...
Everyone who votes Conservative is a racist. Wrong.
Everyone who voted for Brexit is a racist.
Wrong.
Everyone who reads the Daily Mail is a racist.
Wrong.
The world isn't as black and white as that, fortunately.
This, in a nutshell, is what is wrong and the reason for my right-think handbook question earlier. The idea that, in the eyes of some, change of the kind they envisage is deemed essential, as though it is self-evident, and that people who don't see it the same way and thus resist their call to "orthodoxy" are responsible for the divide that results and should be removed from society is so very much the model of authoritianism and illiberalism. I am firmly opposed to what you wrote for this reason.
Much like the brexit argument, one side is dealing in facts and reality, the other is dealing in "patriotism" and lies to rile up the angry and uneducated
And much like brexit shitshow unraveling now exactly as remainers warned, in hind sight in a few years it will be a fairly unanimous decision on which side was "right".
I’m not sure that everyone who reads the Daily Mail is a racist wrong.
As @NewburyWanderer said, fortunately the world is not so black and white as you would have it.
Wait a second... I dimly remember you once said you were a teacher. You're Will Knowland, recently dismissed from Eton, right?
I fear that we will learn on Brexit that it had one clear right answer.
I imagine he had to referee matches on Saturday afternoons.
Had a little read of that Millwall fans forum. Honestly some of the most disgusting comments I've ever seen, but one highlight was one particular poster sharing a petition signed by 100,000 others stating that Millwall's position was NOT racist and that everyone should stand by them. Who started that petition you ask? The leader of Britain First. You couldn't make it up.
I hope you are mistaken but I've always been a "better off together" type of character, especially when considering European history, and tend to the same view. I'm hoping we will find some benefits to having greater independence in the world that currently seem unlikely to me to materialise.
This has nothing to do with anyone needing a handbook as you well know. Are you saying that racism is not self-evidently wrong?
Some weird stuff above, I hope it's a bit more in depth than just people not wanting to be told what to do by society and thinking that is the same or worse than being racially abused but I'm not convinced.
Yes. Yes, that is obviously what I am saying. Has it not always been clear that I favour a society divided along racial grounds? For why else would I say something you don't immediately recognise as being correct?
Good grief.