I'm in a similar boat. The defensive, excuse-led, communications from Ainsworth are getting tiring.
The article recently of how it might get worse before it gets better was especially depressing. It completely set the tone for the last two results.
It frustrates me how a lack of budget (and injuries apparently) means we can't even try and pass the ball on the floor over short distances. Or how it means we can't show any positivity or ambition in both our play and communications.
Ainsworth even said that the intention for Weston and Cowan-Hall were to "get on the end of Bayo's flicks" which hardly suggests a change in style when they are fit.
Accrington have shown that League 2 teams with a low budget can pass the ball and entertain. I can't see Ainsworth changing his style even with a bigger budget. The crowds are already voting with their feet and it's getting easier and easier to find better things to do on a Saturday/Tuesday evening.
It is becoming increasingly difficult to feel any commonality with large sections of the fanbase of Wycombe Wanderers.
A section of the support seem determined to undermine a reputation for good behaviour that has taken years to build up.
But perhaps worse are the older more experienced people on this board who should be capable of providing a more mature more considered view than the young immature and frankly apparently rather thick hotheads.
Because of the ownership model that WWFC has chosen, supported by the vast majority of these so- called supporters, WWFC as a result has one of the lowest playing budgets in the division thought to be at least in the bottom six, possibly even more extreme than that. All clubs seek to finish as high as possible of course, and there will be seasonal variation, but it is a simple matter of fact that income levels over time will correlate very closely with finishing position. Our expectation if we support that ownership model, should be that we will realistically fairly regularly find ourselves at the bottom end of the table - that is a price we should be prepared to pay for the benefits we perceive from that model.
In fact due to the excellent stewardship of Ainsworth and Howard, we have massively exceeded those expectations in recent seasons - second top scorers two seasons ago, a trip to Wembley, promotion missed by seconds , remarkably challenging for playoffs for much of last season as well - all way above anything we have any right to expect.
Ok the back end of last season reverted to broadly at expected levels as injuries took their toll and this season, with a further and enhanced crop of injuries removing over half the probable first team, has in the first tough seven games, including away games against the probable top two teams in the league, been a struggle.
So at this difficult time, what is the reaction of a section of the supporters, not just the youth but also a group of older notionally more mature supporters. Is it to recognise that at this difficult time, the manager and the players who are plainly working hard to address the situation deserve our support and understanding? Is it to recognise that our ownership model has disadvantages too and will result in difficult times sometimes? No of course not, the reaction of too many is to reach for the simplistic default position - oh we've lost a couple of games, the manager must be shit, lets sack the manager - completely ignoring the context of our situation. frankly its pathetic.
And if I can see it from 200 miles away, why can seemingly so few much closer not grasp simple realities? IMHO a number of people need to take a long hard look at themselves. Do they really deserve a football league team to support?
I can't find the link but GA did say he had tried but failed to get a loanee left back in. Not sure what's happened with Wood, but I suppose Sido at least has more pace even though LB is not his ideal position by a long stretch.
And of course releasing Ryan Sellers in the summer whilst offering Sam Wood a new deal.
Seems a real shame to me all this has left Harriman in the back four when he should be a player going forward creating chances.
Anyone signing three players in the summer who are likely to contribute no more than 60 mins of game time before October isn't really looking at workrate or effort either.
For the record, Sam Wood had a contractural option for a another year, which he exercised. Whether GA would have offered him an extension or not we will never know. Sellers, the answer to all our problems, has impressed other expert opinion at other clubs so much that he now plays for Finchley.
With exception of Muller (who may or may not get paid) who the three players signed in the summer who we all knew at the time would not play before October are is something of a mystery.
All part of the culture of being as miserable and negative as possible I guess.
Incidentally you may want to have a little look at Exeter, a similar club to us in many respects, who also have been hit with an injury crisis and have also struggled. But then that would conflict with the narrative you have decided to adopt.
Hi @DevC. Couple of corrections to your assumptions.
'three players in the summer who are likely to contribute no more than 60 mins' does not mean 'three players signed in the summer who we all knew at the time would not play before October'. You've added the hindsight to take a dig but any manager signing Paris Cowan-Hall is taking a risk based on his injury record.
'All part of the culture of being as miserable and negative as possible I guess' is exactly half right. I am totally miserable about the football served up in 2016. It has been pathetic in the most part. It's really hard work watching at the moment and recent additions of poor discipline and second half slumps haven't made it any easier. I'm not sure either is down to budgets and injuries.
I do though think if you read all my posts in this thread rather than the bits that fit you'll find I really hope the manager can turn it around so negativity isn't really something I feel. I support the club with the same passion as always. I just want and expect better than what is happening currently.
I'm sure you can twist this in 200 hundred words or more
@DevC
'So at this difficult time, what is the reaction of a section of the supporters, not just the youth but also a group of older notionally more mature supporters. Is it to recognise that at this difficult time, the manager and the players who are plainly working hard to address the situation deserve our support and understanding? Is it to recognise that our ownership model has disadvantages too and will result in difficult times sometimes? No of course not, the reaction of too many is to reach for the simplistic default position - oh we've lost a couple of games, the manager must be shit, lets sack the manager - completely ignoring the context of our situation. frankly its pathetic.
And if I can see it from 200 miles away, why can seemingly so few much closer not grasp simple realities?'
I'm not advocating sacking Gareth Ainsworth and I'm very proud the club has already stuck by him in two periods when many others would have gone but.....
..... don't you see that it is the fact you are 200 miles away that you can't see and feel the frustration other feel? I would argue that watching each week it is getting harder to see that everyone is 'plainly working hard to address the situation'. For me that is the point. We haven't just lost a 'couple of games' have we?
Hard to see what you were seeking to achieve with your signing three players who then got injured comment in that case. Negativity for the sake of it.
PCH was a risk. Because of that we could afford him. If you have a low budget, its very hard to sign proven talent without weakness or risk.
Apart from that just moaning, complete lack of empathy and understanding of the situation. Every post designed to undermine a manager you apparently don't want to sack and players lacking in confidence.
The irony of digging at digging at me for using 200 words in two posts each using over 200 words - not lost.
The main reason for the number of words was the need to include your huge quote so I wasn't accused of missing anything out. Not sure why that becomes ironic but if it raised a little smile then I hope this will wipe it out.
Can't you see that my first mention of the injured players was referencing the previous workrate and effort comments? It has nothing to do with digging at the manager or being negative. It's just simply that they aren't adding much to the workrate or the effort at the moment.
I want Ainsworth to be a success. I want Wycombe Wanderers to be a success. I'm not sure the two go hand in hand but in realising that I'm not sure that is negative. Sometimes in life you stick and other times you twist. Hindsight tells you if you were right.
Just to be clear, all you were saying is that those players who are currently injured aren't able to contribute on the field until they are fit? Shit Sherlock I hadn't thought of that.
As for the rest, to me unintelligible. You don't want to sack the manager but you think WW would be better of without him? What's your suggestion, a mafia hit?
Droning negative pointless moaning with no apparent understanding of the issues the club faces or allowance for them.
Actually Dev, I think most people on here are willing to give GA more time and hoping he will turn it round, fully aware of the constraints he is under but sadly losing faith - under mounting evidence - that the gaffer will be able to do so. I appreciate that conflicts with the narrative you have decided to adopt but maybe that's because most on here can call upon evidence in front of their eyes once a week or fortnight, rather than relying on a message board, dubious statistics and one cup match this season for empirical research.
Your central argument, here and many times before, is that Wycombe have a bottom six budget and so placing any higher than that is a bonus, not to be expected. Fine, but given it's so key an argument for you - could you finally source this claim for our budget? You might be right, maybe if you go through the annual returns via Companies House for all 24 clubs you'll be able to prove it definitively (I'm presuming each will declare the cumulative salaries of club employees, though unlikely to split it between playing and non-playing staff). But until then, I'd park the righteous anger if possible.
While on paper your argument may have merit I'm afraid you've completely discounted the emotional dissonance that football generates. This isn't a game of moneyball, statistics are fun and illuminating but that's not why we watch football. We do so because it hits us in the gut, the raw emotions, the soap operatic elements, the beauty of seeing a perfectly flighted pass and the intensity of the celebration after a move ends on a goal. That's what football is about and that's what's lacking under Gaz's direction. Instead we're seeing cynical football no better than that of Peter Taylor (who at least got us promotion while boring us to tears before getting the chop).
Hoofball, fouling, narrowing the pitch, negative comms, timewasting (less of that this season for obvious reasons!) all lessen the bond between fans and manager. But that alone shouldn't force him out. The wider problem is that, even when we were doing badly under GA in 2013-4 he was still able to instill passion in the players, a desire and a drive to challenge for the ball, a belief in their abilities even when that wasn't necessarily being demonstrated on the pitch. For some reason that abruptly disappeared in the early part of 2016 and since then all we've paid to witness has been turgid, morbid grindball with few, if any, redeeming factors. Injuries aren't helping, sure, particularly Luke O'Nien's (we only really started to decline when he was laid off last season - I can't believe it's a coincidence his new injury comes at the start of another losing streak) but I'm not seeing any belief in the players that they can turn this around.
I'm very happy to give them collectively more time to do so - it's far too early to be axing Ainsworth - but its absolutely right that he is now feeling the pressure and understanding that his brand of cynical football will see him lose friends faster than others in a similar situation. If he can't get us out of this rut by November, injuries notwithstanding, I cannot imagine that he will be able to by May, given every season has seen a second-half slump under Gaz.
If you want to play moneyball, Dev, you have to understand that emotion plays no part. In which case, we will need to find the money and wave adieu to Gareth before he takes the club down. Hopefully he will be able to turn it round and he deserves more time to do so. But surely your loyalty to the club is greater than your loyalty to one man?
@DevC I think you deliberately misunderstand one point just to keep the debate going. Please stop and then I won't have to defend my view and have you moving what I am saying. I really don't get any pleasure from interacting with you but whilst you keep trying to spin what I am saying I will be forced to.
I didn't say 'You don't want to sack the manager but you think WW would be better of without him? ' I said 'I want Ainsworth to be a success. I want Wycombe Wanderers to be a success. I'm not sure the two go hand in hand'. Isn't it pretty obvious that Ainsworth could be successful elsewhere and Wycombe could be successful with Ainsworth. It's not my current thought but it is foolish to not at least acknowledge it. There has to be a point in time when the two part company (for good and bad reasons) and the club is already planning for that.
I think I understand the current constraints pretty well. We have no money and plenty of injuries. I'm not sure I believe all of them are excuses for the current performances on the pitch. I wish I could look at it as dispassionately as you. It would mean watching as few games as you though and personally supporting a football team is best served at the ground on a match day. Whilst I may be miserable for days after a poor performance for some reason the hope returns for the next match day.
I get the impression you will read negativity in to anything posted that looks at the current feeling rather than the current balance sheet and injury report. Thing is feelings are wrong. They are just feelings.
The budget situation is widely accepted and as I recall was confirmed at a fans forum fairly recently. If you have any evidence to the contrary, please present it. Otherwise I have to assume that narrative was factual.
I repeat again, the 14/5 season we were the second top scorers, went to Wembley, far more than we had any right to expect. This is now discounted. Last season, despite injury problems, we challenged for the playoffs again, before fading at the last. This too is discounted.
Of course football is emotional, of course everyone wants to win every week. Even for the top clubs that wont happen. For clubs with resources at the bottom end, it will happen less rarely.
Any decision on who should be the manager of a football club however should be taken with as little emotion as possible - it should be judged on who is more likely to produce the best results. Ainsworth's efforts over the past few years give him huge credit in the bank in this judgement. Disappointing results while half the team is injured do little to diminish this credit.
This year may well be a struggle. We may well flirt with relegation. it was only a matter of time before we had such a season. If we do, evidence to me suggests that we are moe likely to survive it than with another manager at the helm, still with no money.
In the meantime, it would be better for the club and its prospects if the supporters supported it rather than moaned - constantly. But I suspect that wont happen sadly - it seems to part of our culture to demand instant success and we seem to celebrate negativity.
Meanwhile we have a run of five to seven more winnable games. Lets hope we get at least seven points from the next five, 10 from the next seven and end this nonsense.
" only because Northampton didn't bother turning up"
"5-0 to Pompey"
"amazed at how wrong they've managed to get it!
And you accuse me of hyperbole.
With the exception of budget (generally accepted as fact until it started conflicting with the "narrative"), would you like to highlight one assumption stated as fact. Or is that just another convenient cliché.
I'll try to make my point a bit clearer. I said 'I understand the current constraints pretty well. We have no money and plenty of injuries'. Isn't that saying exactly what you are trying to tell me I don't get? Where we differ is that I think we have players on the pitch at the moment that are better than they are showing. I know it's opinion but it's what I think so is a factor in my views on the current position. In short the budget situation has given us the squad we have and I think that squad is better than the performances of the last six months. On a separate note isn't that a pretty positive thing? The players are good enough. Ainsworth has assembled a decent squad.
I hate this idea of 'flirting' with relegation. Sounds a bit like 'we are too good to go down' but I don't want to put words in your mouth. The truth is the season before your history lesson below started we did a little more than 'flirting' with relegation with Ainsworth at the helm. I hope we pick up soon but an idea that 'flirting' with relegation is the worst that can happen this season has to be rubbish doesn't it? Realising we can go down probably explains a bit the differences in views between us.
Finally I think the moaning you seem to have focused on is far more of a cyber thing than an actual thing at the ground. I'm sure some moan at the game. I've heard them. But in percentage terms I think the positive views are much more visable at games than they are on line. Don't assume it's all moaning.
It is certainly an interesting time at the moment. I do sort of get the feeling that post-Colchester there has been a realisation with GA/AH that something has to change. That appears to have been reflected in a slightly more open approach both off the pitch (the updates on injuries - and look how that info has depressed everyone!) and on it, which has seen us score an average of two goals per game (how I would have been happy with that last March/April) but also suffer rather badly at the other end - averaging nearly three - (ditto depression). I'm a little concerned that our cynical approach - that I thought had been toned down last season and the start of this - also seems to have reappeared, but hopefully that may only be temporary.
Where I think the main problem is at the moment (given the limited resources we actually have) is lack of confidence. First half by all accounts we competed well but their third goal just before half-time on Saturday would have had a major effect, particularly given the abysmal nature of it and following so closely to our equaliser. Yes, GA should have been able to fire them up, but I'm not sure whether he has as much confidence in himself anymore at the moment.
I am particularly concerned about Blackman. If Saturday becomes part of a trend rather than an aberration we could really be in trouble.
However, looking on the positive side, three of our losses have been against likely top six sides we would have done well to take anything out of. Our two draws were also okay results, so it is really only Crawley (okay probably Colchester as well) where we could have reasonably expected more (if you accept the argument that we are a low-budget squad stretched wafer thin).
We could do with something against Stevenage, but I do feel that October and November will be the key months for us this season. There are half a dozen winnable games in there. Unfortunately its hard to see us not entering them looking up on everyone else, which will really be a test of how much GA has learnt from our slump to the bottom a couple of years ago
Just for the record, Righty, I am well aware that relegation is a possibility- in this and any other season. I don't think it will happen but it could. The best way to make it more likely IMHO is for the supporters to do their best to undermine the players confidence and for the club management to make a knee-jerk "appease the supporters" panic managerial change.
Blackman had a blinder last week and not so good perhaps yesterday. That happens with young players. Again if he is supported and encouraged, he has a better chance of playing well next week than if he is abused. Surely that is obvious. I suspect he will be just fine.
@DevC It's an art the way you make an accusation based on not understanding and then just move on when the correct position is explained. No acknowledgement at all.
I still think you see relegation as some hypothetical thing. I really do think it can happen this season. I am though exactly the supporter you describe and I don't know how many more time I need to tell you I am not shouting for Ainsworths head. To be honest I don't think he's in any danger of being sacked at the moment even if he'd have been jetisoned by other chairmen at other clubs by now.
I think once you ignore this correction we've closed all the loose ends
Dev@c commenting on football and emotion, the very man who changed clubs !!
Mr plant is right, why waste energy on feeding the troll. Perhaps he will get bored and persue his other hobby of letching at lonely female commuters.
As usual no idea what you are talking about in paragraph 1.
bookmakers have us 7-1 to be relegated. that feels about right to me. That number comes down a) if the manager is unfairly dismissed (as others have suggested). b) if supports whip each other up into an orgy of negativity that affects players confidence.
I am very grateful that we have a Howard at the helm not the clowns at for example Leeds and orient. Our chances of relative success are much improved IMHO.
Your point MR Attitude would be a very good one, had I have said what you then demolish. A classic straw man.
What I actually said was that the chances of relegation increase with either of those two events, not that they are sole determinants. there are many factors to a relegation team, you are absolutely right that luck is often one of the biggest.
Incidentally possibly worth looking at the last ten clubs to have been relegated from Lg2.
Of those only 1, Dagenham, did not sack their manager midway through the season, the other 9 managed to get through 12 during the seasons (and no doubt a few more post season end.) The idea that sacking a manager ensures an improvement in results is a fallacy. Obviously some clubs around the bottom two will have changed managers and improved results.
'The idea that sacking a manager ensures an improvement in results is a fallacy. Obviously some clubs around the bottom two will have changed managers and improved results.'
What an amazing post. I'm not really sure anyone can top that.
Comments
I'm in a similar boat. The defensive, excuse-led, communications from Ainsworth are getting tiring.
The article recently of how it might get worse before it gets better was especially depressing. It completely set the tone for the last two results.
It frustrates me how a lack of budget (and injuries apparently) means we can't even try and pass the ball on the floor over short distances. Or how it means we can't show any positivity or ambition in both our play and communications.
Ainsworth even said that the intention for Weston and Cowan-Hall were to "get on the end of Bayo's flicks" which hardly suggests a change in style when they are fit.
Accrington have shown that League 2 teams with a low budget can pass the ball and entertain. I can't see Ainsworth changing his style even with a bigger budget. The crowds are already voting with their feet and it's getting easier and easier to find better things to do on a Saturday/Tuesday evening.
It is becoming increasingly difficult to feel any commonality with large sections of the fanbase of Wycombe Wanderers.
A section of the support seem determined to undermine a reputation for good behaviour that has taken years to build up.
But perhaps worse are the older more experienced people on this board who should be capable of providing a more mature more considered view than the young immature and frankly apparently rather thick hotheads.
Because of the ownership model that WWFC has chosen, supported by the vast majority of these so- called supporters, WWFC as a result has one of the lowest playing budgets in the division thought to be at least in the bottom six, possibly even more extreme than that. All clubs seek to finish as high as possible of course, and there will be seasonal variation, but it is a simple matter of fact that income levels over time will correlate very closely with finishing position. Our expectation if we support that ownership model, should be that we will realistically fairly regularly find ourselves at the bottom end of the table - that is a price we should be prepared to pay for the benefits we perceive from that model.
In fact due to the excellent stewardship of Ainsworth and Howard, we have massively exceeded those expectations in recent seasons - second top scorers two seasons ago, a trip to Wembley, promotion missed by seconds , remarkably challenging for playoffs for much of last season as well - all way above anything we have any right to expect.
Ok the back end of last season reverted to broadly at expected levels as injuries took their toll and this season, with a further and enhanced crop of injuries removing over half the probable first team, has in the first tough seven games, including away games against the probable top two teams in the league, been a struggle.
So at this difficult time, what is the reaction of a section of the supporters, not just the youth but also a group of older notionally more mature supporters. Is it to recognise that at this difficult time, the manager and the players who are plainly working hard to address the situation deserve our support and understanding? Is it to recognise that our ownership model has disadvantages too and will result in difficult times sometimes? No of course not, the reaction of too many is to reach for the simplistic default position - oh we've lost a couple of games, the manager must be shit, lets sack the manager - completely ignoring the context of our situation. frankly its pathetic.
And if I can see it from 200 miles away, why can seemingly so few much closer not grasp simple realities? IMHO a number of people need to take a long hard look at themselves. Do they really deserve a football league team to support?
I can't find the link but GA did say he had tried but failed to get a loanee left back in. Not sure what's happened with Wood, but I suppose Sido at least has more pace even though LB is not his ideal position by a long stretch.
And of course releasing Ryan Sellers in the summer whilst offering Sam Wood a new deal.
Seems a real shame to me all this has left Harriman in the back four when he should be a player going forward creating chances.
Anyone signing three players in the summer who are likely to contribute no more than 60 mins of game time before October isn't really looking at workrate or effort either.
For the record, Sam Wood had a contractural option for a another year, which he exercised. Whether GA would have offered him an extension or not we will never know. Sellers, the answer to all our problems, has impressed other expert opinion at other clubs so much that he now plays for Finchley.
With exception of Muller (who may or may not get paid) who the three players signed in the summer who we all knew at the time would not play before October are is something of a mystery.
All part of the culture of being as miserable and negative as possible I guess.
Incidentally you may want to have a little look at Exeter, a similar club to us in many respects, who also have been hit with an injury crisis and have also struggled. But then that would conflict with the narrative you have decided to adopt.
Hi @DevC. Couple of corrections to your assumptions.
'three players in the summer who are likely to contribute no more than 60 mins' does not mean 'three players signed in the summer who we all knew at the time would not play before October'. You've added the hindsight to take a dig but any manager signing Paris Cowan-Hall is taking a risk based on his injury record.
'All part of the culture of being as miserable and negative as possible I guess' is exactly half right. I am totally miserable about the football served up in 2016. It has been pathetic in the most part. It's really hard work watching at the moment and recent additions of poor discipline and second half slumps haven't made it any easier. I'm not sure either is down to budgets and injuries.
I do though think if you read all my posts in this thread rather than the bits that fit you'll find I really hope the manager can turn it around so negativity isn't really something I feel. I support the club with the same passion as always. I just want and expect better than what is happening currently.
I'm sure you can twist this in 200 hundred words or more
@DevC
'So at this difficult time, what is the reaction of a section of the supporters, not just the youth but also a group of older notionally more mature supporters. Is it to recognise that at this difficult time, the manager and the players who are plainly working hard to address the situation deserve our support and understanding? Is it to recognise that our ownership model has disadvantages too and will result in difficult times sometimes? No of course not, the reaction of too many is to reach for the simplistic default position - oh we've lost a couple of games, the manager must be shit, lets sack the manager - completely ignoring the context of our situation. frankly its pathetic.
And if I can see it from 200 miles away, why can seemingly so few much closer not grasp simple realities?'
I'm not advocating sacking Gareth Ainsworth and I'm very proud the club has already stuck by him in two periods when many others would have gone but.....
..... don't you see that it is the fact you are 200 miles away that you can't see and feel the frustration other feel? I would argue that watching each week it is getting harder to see that everyone is 'plainly working hard to address the situation'. For me that is the point. We haven't just lost a 'couple of games' have we?
Hard to see what you were seeking to achieve with your signing three players who then got injured comment in that case. Negativity for the sake of it.
PCH was a risk. Because of that we could afford him. If you have a low budget, its very hard to sign proven talent without weakness or risk.
Apart from that just moaning, complete lack of empathy and understanding of the situation. Every post designed to undermine a manager you apparently don't want to sack and players lacking in confidence.
The irony of digging at digging at me for using 200 words in two posts each using over 200 words - not lost.
The main reason for the number of words was the need to include your huge quote so I wasn't accused of missing anything out. Not sure why that becomes ironic but if it raised a little smile then I hope this will wipe it out.
Can't you see that my first mention of the injured players was referencing the previous workrate and effort comments? It has nothing to do with digging at the manager or being negative. It's just simply that they aren't adding much to the workrate or the effort at the moment.
I want Ainsworth to be a success. I want Wycombe Wanderers to be a success. I'm not sure the two go hand in hand but in realising that I'm not sure that is negative. Sometimes in life you stick and other times you twist. Hindsight tells you if you were right.
Just to be clear, all you were saying is that those players who are currently injured aren't able to contribute on the field until they are fit? Shit Sherlock I hadn't thought of that.
As for the rest, to me unintelligible. You don't want to sack the manager but you think WW would be better of without him? What's your suggestion, a mafia hit?
Droning negative pointless moaning with no apparent understanding of the issues the club faces or allowance for them.
Each to their own.
Actually Dev, I think most people on here are willing to give GA more time and hoping he will turn it round, fully aware of the constraints he is under but sadly losing faith - under mounting evidence - that the gaffer will be able to do so. I appreciate that conflicts with the narrative you have decided to adopt but maybe that's because most on here can call upon evidence in front of their eyes once a week or fortnight, rather than relying on a message board, dubious statistics and one cup match this season for empirical research.
Your central argument, here and many times before, is that Wycombe have a bottom six budget and so placing any higher than that is a bonus, not to be expected. Fine, but given it's so key an argument for you - could you finally source this claim for our budget? You might be right, maybe if you go through the annual returns via Companies House for all 24 clubs you'll be able to prove it definitively (I'm presuming each will declare the cumulative salaries of club employees, though unlikely to split it between playing and non-playing staff). But until then, I'd park the righteous anger if possible.
While on paper your argument may have merit I'm afraid you've completely discounted the emotional dissonance that football generates. This isn't a game of moneyball, statistics are fun and illuminating but that's not why we watch football. We do so because it hits us in the gut, the raw emotions, the soap operatic elements, the beauty of seeing a perfectly flighted pass and the intensity of the celebration after a move ends on a goal. That's what football is about and that's what's lacking under Gaz's direction. Instead we're seeing cynical football no better than that of Peter Taylor (who at least got us promotion while boring us to tears before getting the chop).
Hoofball, fouling, narrowing the pitch, negative comms, timewasting (less of that this season for obvious reasons!) all lessen the bond between fans and manager. But that alone shouldn't force him out. The wider problem is that, even when we were doing badly under GA in 2013-4 he was still able to instill passion in the players, a desire and a drive to challenge for the ball, a belief in their abilities even when that wasn't necessarily being demonstrated on the pitch. For some reason that abruptly disappeared in the early part of 2016 and since then all we've paid to witness has been turgid, morbid grindball with few, if any, redeeming factors. Injuries aren't helping, sure, particularly Luke O'Nien's (we only really started to decline when he was laid off last season - I can't believe it's a coincidence his new injury comes at the start of another losing streak) but I'm not seeing any belief in the players that they can turn this around.
I'm very happy to give them collectively more time to do so - it's far too early to be axing Ainsworth - but its absolutely right that he is now feeling the pressure and understanding that his brand of cynical football will see him lose friends faster than others in a similar situation. If he can't get us out of this rut by November, injuries notwithstanding, I cannot imagine that he will be able to by May, given every season has seen a second-half slump under Gaz.
If you want to play moneyball, Dev, you have to understand that emotion plays no part. In which case, we will need to find the money and wave adieu to Gareth before he takes the club down. Hopefully he will be able to turn it round and he deserves more time to do so. But surely your loyalty to the club is greater than your loyalty to one man?
I'm pretty sure we do have a bottom six budget. It's impossible to prove though, even if you did download copies of all of the accounts.
@DevC I think you deliberately misunderstand one point just to keep the debate going. Please stop and then I won't have to defend my view and have you moving what I am saying. I really don't get any pleasure from interacting with you but whilst you keep trying to spin what I am saying I will be forced to.
I didn't say 'You don't want to sack the manager but you think WW would be better of without him? ' I said 'I want Ainsworth to be a success. I want Wycombe Wanderers to be a success. I'm not sure the two go hand in hand'. Isn't it pretty obvious that Ainsworth could be successful elsewhere and Wycombe could be successful with Ainsworth. It's not my current thought but it is foolish to not at least acknowledge it. There has to be a point in time when the two part company (for good and bad reasons) and the club is already planning for that.
I think I understand the current constraints pretty well. We have no money and plenty of injuries. I'm not sure I believe all of them are excuses for the current performances on the pitch. I wish I could look at it as dispassionately as you. It would mean watching as few games as you though and personally supporting a football team is best served at the ground on a match day. Whilst I may be miserable for days after a poor performance for some reason the hope returns for the next match day.
I get the impression you will read negativity in to anything posted that looks at the current feeling rather than the current balance sheet and injury report. Thing is feelings are wrong. They are just feelings.
Finally your mafia comment is in poor taste.
The budget situation is widely accepted and as I recall was confirmed at a fans forum fairly recently. If you have any evidence to the contrary, please present it. Otherwise I have to assume that narrative was factual.
I repeat again, the 14/5 season we were the second top scorers, went to Wembley, far more than we had any right to expect. This is now discounted. Last season, despite injury problems, we challenged for the playoffs again, before fading at the last. This too is discounted.
Of course football is emotional, of course everyone wants to win every week. Even for the top clubs that wont happen. For clubs with resources at the bottom end, it will happen less rarely.
Any decision on who should be the manager of a football club however should be taken with as little emotion as possible - it should be judged on who is more likely to produce the best results. Ainsworth's efforts over the past few years give him huge credit in the bank in this judgement. Disappointing results while half the team is injured do little to diminish this credit.
This year may well be a struggle. We may well flirt with relegation. it was only a matter of time before we had such a season. If we do, evidence to me suggests that we are moe likely to survive it than with another manager at the helm, still with no money.
In the meantime, it would be better for the club and its prospects if the supporters supported it rather than moaned - constantly. But I suspect that wont happen sadly - it seems to part of our culture to demand instant success and we seem to celebrate negativity.
Meanwhile we have a run of five to seven more winnable games. Lets hope we get at least seven points from the next five, 10 from the next seven and end this nonsense.
The assumptions stated as fact and endless hyperbole make it totally impossible to take your arguments even slightly seriously @devc.
" only because Northampton didn't bother turning up"
"5-0 to Pompey"
"amazed at how wrong they've managed to get it!
And you accuse me of hyperbole.
With the exception of budget (generally accepted as fact until it started conflicting with the "narrative"), would you like to highlight one assumption stated as fact. Or is that just another convenient cliché.
I'll try to make my point a bit clearer. I said 'I understand the current constraints pretty well. We have no money and plenty of injuries'. Isn't that saying exactly what you are trying to tell me I don't get? Where we differ is that I think we have players on the pitch at the moment that are better than they are showing. I know it's opinion but it's what I think so is a factor in my views on the current position. In short the budget situation has given us the squad we have and I think that squad is better than the performances of the last six months. On a separate note isn't that a pretty positive thing? The players are good enough. Ainsworth has assembled a decent squad.
I hate this idea of 'flirting' with relegation. Sounds a bit like 'we are too good to go down' but I don't want to put words in your mouth. The truth is the season before your history lesson below started we did a little more than 'flirting' with relegation with Ainsworth at the helm. I hope we pick up soon but an idea that 'flirting' with relegation is the worst that can happen this season has to be rubbish doesn't it? Realising we can go down probably explains a bit the differences in views between us.
Finally I think the moaning you seem to have focused on is far more of a cyber thing than an actual thing at the ground. I'm sure some moan at the game. I've heard them. But in percentage terms I think the positive views are much more visable at games than they are on line. Don't assume it's all moaning.
It is certainly an interesting time at the moment. I do sort of get the feeling that post-Colchester there has been a realisation with GA/AH that something has to change. That appears to have been reflected in a slightly more open approach both off the pitch (the updates on injuries - and look how that info has depressed everyone!) and on it, which has seen us score an average of two goals per game (how I would have been happy with that last March/April) but also suffer rather badly at the other end - averaging nearly three - (ditto depression). I'm a little concerned that our cynical approach - that I thought had been toned down last season and the start of this - also seems to have reappeared, but hopefully that may only be temporary.
Where I think the main problem is at the moment (given the limited resources we actually have) is lack of confidence. First half by all accounts we competed well but their third goal just before half-time on Saturday would have had a major effect, particularly given the abysmal nature of it and following so closely to our equaliser. Yes, GA should have been able to fire them up, but I'm not sure whether he has as much confidence in himself anymore at the moment.
I am particularly concerned about Blackman. If Saturday becomes part of a trend rather than an aberration we could really be in trouble.
However, looking on the positive side, three of our losses have been against likely top six sides we would have done well to take anything out of. Our two draws were also okay results, so it is really only Crawley (okay probably Colchester as well) where we could have reasonably expected more (if you accept the argument that we are a low-budget squad stretched wafer thin).
We could do with something against Stevenage, but I do feel that October and November will be the key months for us this season. There are half a dozen winnable games in there. Unfortunately its hard to see us not entering them looking up on everyone else, which will really be a test of how much GA has learnt from our slump to the bottom a couple of years ago
Don't feed the troll
Just for the record, Righty, I am well aware that relegation is a possibility- in this and any other season. I don't think it will happen but it could. The best way to make it more likely IMHO is for the supporters to do their best to undermine the players confidence and for the club management to make a knee-jerk "appease the supporters" panic managerial change.
Blackman had a blinder last week and not so good perhaps yesterday. That happens with young players. Again if he is supported and encouraged, he has a better chance of playing well next week than if he is abused. Surely that is obvious. I suspect he will be just fine.
Yeah, because that's the choice isn't it?
People either agree with you or they're abusing young players
Woeful stuff as usual
@DevC It's an art the way you make an accusation based on not understanding and then just move on when the correct position is explained. No acknowledgement at all.
I still think you see relegation as some hypothetical thing. I really do think it can happen this season. I am though exactly the supporter you describe and I don't know how many more time I need to tell you I am not shouting for Ainsworths head. To be honest I don't think he's in any danger of being sacked at the moment even if he'd have been jetisoned by other chairmen at other clubs by now.
I think once you ignore this correction we've closed all the loose ends
Dev@c commenting on football and emotion, the very man who changed clubs !!
Mr plant is right, why waste energy on feeding the troll. Perhaps he will get bored and persue his other hobby of letching at lonely female commuters.
As usual no idea what you are talking about in paragraph 1.
bookmakers have us 7-1 to be relegated. that feels about right to me. That number comes down a) if the manager is unfairly dismissed (as others have suggested). b) if supports whip each other up into an orgy of negativity that affects players confidence.
I am very grateful that we have a Howard at the helm not the clowns at for example Leeds and orient. Our chances of relative success are much improved IMHO.
So our chances of being relegated depend on:
1) whether we sack our manager unfairly or not, and
2) whether our supporters shout at the players.
Do you not think the tactics we elect to play, how we approach matches, individual player performances and luck have anything to do with things?
He doesn't come over and applaud the fans either anymore. He's on borrowed time
Your point MR Attitude would be a very good one, had I have said what you then demolish. A classic straw man.
What I actually said was that the chances of relegation increase with either of those two events, not that they are sole determinants. there are many factors to a relegation team, you are absolutely right that luck is often one of the biggest.
@DevC This is dire. Said it before but time to fold the gasroom.
Incidentally possibly worth looking at the last ten clubs to have been relegated from Lg2.
Of those only 1, Dagenham, did not sack their manager midway through the season, the other 9 managed to get through 12 during the seasons (and no doubt a few more post season end.) The idea that sacking a manager ensures an improvement in results is a fallacy. Obviously some clubs around the bottom two will have changed managers and improved results.
'The idea that sacking a manager ensures an improvement in results is a fallacy. Obviously some clubs around the bottom two will have changed managers and improved results.'
What an amazing post. I'm not really sure anyone can top that.