@LDF said:
I have no strong feelings on the subject but I do have strong feelings about the way people with the 'wrong' views are treated on this forum.
I bet you also unironically call people snowflakes.
@LDF said:
I have no strong feelings on the subject but I do have strong feelings about the way people with the 'wrong' views are treated on this forum.
I bet you also unironically call people snowflakes.
Whilst we know that our government is a shambles. What harm is it doing anyone that has been jabbed?
In Athens they don't even let you into a shop without showing a passport. Takes 2 seconds to show it and you're in - what's the problem? Surely every government in the world can't be a shambles?
However, what it does do is limit the people that don't want to be/can't be jabbed. I respect that it should be a choice. I had my jab because I was worried about being limited, not worried about catching the virus. That is the shambles.
@LDF said:
I have no strong feelings on the subject but I do have strong feelings about the way people with the 'wrong' views are treated on this forum.
I bet you also unironically call people snowflakes.
@DevC said:
Have to say that sticking a furry stick down my throat and up my nose until I gag and then waiting 30 mins seems much more onerous than having the courtesy to wear a face mask for 45 mins in a supermarket yet I would estimate that 2o% or so find that small thing too much to ask.
Been a while then @DevC? The last few months they’ve done away with the shoving it down your throat bit for the lateral tests - only just got to shove it in your nostrils now.
And yes, of course it was about the 10th ‘new’ test that I did before I read the instructions and realised…
Literally zero people have died of this new variant so far. This doesn't appear to be relevant to the discussion.
As for vaccine passports I expect it will be lip service and a tick box exercise. I've been to games in Scotland a handful of times where this has been mandatory for several weeks now and not once have I seen any fan asked for it.
@DJWYC14 said:
Literally zero people have died of this new variant so far. This doesn't appear to be relevant to the discussion.
Not directly yet. However IF omicron is 2 or 3 times mores virulent than delta, even if the the hospitalisation rate is 60-70% of delta, the covid related admissions could be between 1.2 and 2.1 times higher than they are now. During the NHS peak times this means less more severe pressure, cancelled appointments and perhaps indirect deaths.
Management in NHS trusts, being non political and data driven, are already looking at how they handle worst case and most likely scenarios - and they are worried. Given that mask wearing and providing confidence to fellow citizens that you’re as low risk as possible doesn’t seem unreasonable ( until sufficient is known about real world figures to re-assess)
@DJWYC14 said:
Literally zero people have died of this new variant so far. This doesn't appear to be relevant to the discussion.
I don’t believe that this is true. While no one has yet been recorded of dying from the Omicron variant, excess deaths in South Africa have significantly increased in the last week.
@LDF stick to your own beliefs and don’t let any negative responses to your posts get you down. Everyone as differing views and hopefully the gasroom regulars will continue to respect that.
If we were all the same life would be bloody boring.
Just had a slightly different perspective on this.
I had a ping from the Covid app saying that I came into contact with someone a few days ago who has since tested positive.
I took the basic test, and went in for the full one and will see what comes of it. (Still throat as well as nose unfortunately)
I wouldn't dream of visiting family and friends until getting the all clear let alone a football stadium full of people wedged together shouting.
Despite the privacy concerns it's wonderful to know the risk and to be able to test, and if necessary isolate rather than passing it on. Vaccination, the apps, quarantine, distancing etc are just tools to stop this thing being forever, nobody HAS to use any of them and none of them are perfect but if you appear to just not fancy doing your bit and increase the risks for everyone then a bit of mocking on a message board is the least of your issues.
@Blue_since_1990 said: @LDF stick to your own beliefs and don’t let any negative responses to your posts get you down. Everyone as differing views and hopefully the gasroom regulars will continue to respect that.
If we were all the same life would be bloody boring.
I mean, certain views don't deserve respect, so that's not entirely true...
@Blue_since_1990 said: @LDF stick to your own beliefs and don’t let any negative responses to your posts get you down. Everyone as differing views and hopefully the gasroom regulars will continue to respect that.
The responses to LDF’s post all seemed to me reasonable and respectful and presented an alternative position without aggression, belittling or anything often seen elsewhere on social media.
@Blue_since_1990 said: @LDF stick to your own beliefs and don’t let any negative responses to your posts get you down. Everyone as differing views and hopefully the gasroom regulars will continue to respect that.
The responses to LDF’s post all seemed to me reasonable and respectful and presented an alternative position without aggression, belittling or anything often seen elsewhere on social media.
@Blue_since_1990 said: @LDF stick to your own beliefs and don’t let any negative responses to your posts get you down. Everyone as differing views and hopefully the gasroom regulars will continue to respect that.
The responses to LDF’s post all seemed to me reasonable and respectful and presented an alternative position without aggression, belittling or anything often seen elsewhere on social media.
All I did was mention that three people had made salient comments. I was then told, in effect, that I'm not welcome here, followed by some nonsense about my allegiances (I had not stated any allegiance) and then some bizarre accusation about 'snowflakes'. I'd hate to see your definition of unreasonable and disrespectful.
Everyone can say what they want. Some people don't like people who don't like what they say and disagree with them. That is called bullying and abuse. Apparently. I am pretty sure no-one has had to 'change their views' as a result of the appalling punishment they get on here.
Apologies. I misread @Blue_since_1990’s comments about negative comments as referring to the posts immediately above from @DJWYC14 and the three immediate replies - which were reasonable and balanced.
Not gone back through this thread to see what your original comments were that sparked the snowflakes and other comments. Personally I like to debate in public in a rational manner than throw insults, which at times I may feel though appropriate would not help public discussion.
“Unless the public health system is on the verge of collapse, it is hard to justify treating the decision to treat the unvaccinated differently to the decision to smoke, drink alcohol, eat unhealthily, not exercise etc “. (Professor Julian Savilescu, University of Oxford in The Guardian).
Interesting viewpoint! Whatever you think about his strangulated syntax (let’s hope the writer is not a professor of English!) I wonder how many Gasroomers would agree with his contention.
I’m sure he means “....the decision to treat the unvaccinated differently from those who choose to smoke, drink alcohol, eat unhealthily, not exercise etc”.
The categories he lists, apart from the alcohol drinkers (and then only those who exceed the limits), have nothing like the same capacity as the unvaccinated to inflict harm on others.
It's difficult, isn't it? I hope we would all agree that there are some views which, if expressed on here, would not and should not be met with any respect whatsoever. Racism and homophobia obviously spring to mind.
Whether anti-vax views fall into the same category, I'm not sure. There is the inherent selfishness of the view that it's all about "my body, my choice", totally ignoring the point that not getting vaccinated greatly increases the chance of onward transmission. Your choice not to get vaccinated or not wear a mask could literally result in someone else getting killed.
For the time being at least, my own view is that most anti-vaxxers are the victims of misinformation more than they are villains. They are rather to be pitied than excoriated.
There is also the point that few people have ever changed their minds as a result of being shouted at. Perhaps those of us who are pro-science and anti-conspiracy theories have a responsibility to keep our discourse civil, in the hope that we might rescue the odd victim from the rabbit hole.
Arguably the public health system is on the verge of collapse and was pre-covid but your last point is key @micra as it's possible for one person to infect multiple people and have this scale even further out of control.
Waiting until all hospitals are full to take action whilst rates are on the rise is just bad maths.
The NHS will always be just on the verge of collapse under this Government and the current NHS management structure. Way too much inefficiency and severely lacking in post hospital care options to move people on. The incredible job the working staff do is all the more incredible based on the management they receive and the huge pay disparity in place.
@micra said:
“Unless the public health system is on the verge of collapse, it is hard to justify treating the decision to treat the unvaccinated differently to the decision to smoke, drink alcohol, eat unhealthily, not exercise etc “. (Professor Julian Savilescu, University of Oxford in The Guardian).
Interesting viewpoint! Whatever you think about his strangulated syntax (let’s hope the writer is not a professor of English!) I wonder how many Gasroomers would agree with his contention.
I’m sure he means “....the decision to treat the unvaccinated differently from those who choose to smoke, drink alcohol, eat unhealthily, not exercise etc”.
The categories he lists, apart from the alcohol drinkers (and then only those who exceed the limits), have nothing like the same capacity as the unvaccinated to inflict harm on others.
Discuss.
Bullshit comparison isn't it. Yes, drinkers and smokers put strain on the NHS but neither of those habits are a contagious infection.
@micra said:
“Unless the public health system is on the verge of collapse, it is hard to justify treating the decision to treat the unvaccinated differently to the decision to smoke, drink alcohol, eat unhealthily, not exercise etc “. (Professor Julian Savilescu, University of Oxford in The Guardian).
Interesting viewpoint! Whatever you think about his strangulated syntax (let’s hope the writer is not a professor of English!) I wonder how many Gasroomers would agree with his contention.
I’m sure he means “....the decision to treat the unvaccinated differently from those who choose to smoke, drink alcohol, eat unhealthily, not exercise etc”.
The categories he lists, apart from the alcohol drinkers (and then only those who exceed the limits), have nothing like the same capacity as the unvaccinated to inflict harm on others.
Discuss.
Bullshit comparison isn't it. Yes, drinkers and smokers put strain on the NHS but neither of those habits are a contagious infection.
Whilst I agree it is a very weak comparison by the Professor, it would be interesting to know how many beds are occupied by patients with problems directly resulting from smoking, alcoholism, drug addiction and increasing obesity. If pre covid more emphasis (resources) had been directed at tackling these issues then there would be less pressure on the NHS and less beds occupied.
@micra said:
“Unless the public health system is on the verge of collapse, it is hard to justify treating the decision to treat the unvaccinated differently to the decision to smoke, drink alcohol, eat unhealthily, not exercise etc “. (Professor Julian Savilescu, University of Oxford in The Guardian).
Interesting viewpoint! Whatever you think about his strangulated syntax (let’s hope the writer is not a professor of English!) I wonder how many Gasroomers would agree with his contention.
I’m sure he means “....the decision to treat the unvaccinated differently from those who choose to smoke, drink alcohol, eat unhealthily, not exercise etc”.
The categories he lists, apart from the alcohol drinkers (and then only those who exceed the limits), have nothing like the same capacity as the unvaccinated to inflict harm on others.
Discuss.
Bullshit comparison isn't it. Yes, drinkers and smokers put strain on the NHS but neither of those habits are a contagious infection.
Whilst I agree it is a very weak comparison by the Professor, it would be interesting to know how many beds are occupied by patients with problems directly resulting from smoking, alcoholism, drug addiction and increasing obesity. If pre covid more emphasis (resources) had been directed at tackling these issues then there would be less pressure on the NHS and less beds occupied.
@StrongestTeam said:
“Arguably the public health system is on the verge of collapse and was pre-covid but your last point is key @micra as it's possible for one person to infect multiple people and have this scale even further out of control.”
Any other points (eg the number of people occupying hospital beds directly or indirectly as result of the lifestyle examples quoted by Professor Savilescu) are irrelevant in the context of the impact on public health of people choosing not to be vaccinated.
@DevC said:
Have to say that sticking a furry stick down my throat and up my nose until I gag and then waiting 30 mins seems much more onerous than having the courtesy to wear a face mask for 45 mins in a supermarket yet I would estimate that 2o% or so find that small thing too much to ask.
Been a while then @DevC? The last few months they’ve done away with the shoving it down your throat bit for the lateral tests - only just got to shove it in your nostrils now.
And yes, of course it was about the 10th ‘new’ test that I did before I read the instructions and realised…
@micra said:
“Unless the public health system is on the verge of collapse, it is hard to justify treating the decision to treat the unvaccinated differently to the decision to smoke, drink alcohol, eat unhealthily, not exercise etc “. (Professor Julian Savilescu, University of Oxford in The Guardian).
Interesting viewpoint! Whatever you think about his strangulated syntax (let’s hope the writer is not a professor of English!) I wonder how many Gasroomers would agree with his contention.
I’m sure he means “....the decision to treat the unvaccinated differently from those who choose to smoke, drink alcohol, eat unhealthily, not exercise etc”.
The categories he lists, apart from the alcohol drinkers (and then only those who exceed the limits), have nothing like the same capacity as the unvaccinated to inflict harm on others.
Discuss.
Bullshit comparison isn't it. Yes, drinkers and smokers put strain on the NHS but neither of those habits are a contagious infection.
Whilst I agree it is a very weak comparison by the Professor, it would be interesting to know how many beds are occupied by patients with problems directly resulting from smoking, alcoholism, drug addiction and increasing obesity. If pre covid more emphasis (resources) had been directed at tackling these issues then there would be less pressure on the NHS and less beds occupied.
They’re coming for the crisp eaters.
I get it now. First they vaccinate us and then they diet us. It’s the thin end of the wedge.
@OakwoodExile said:
It's difficult, isn't it? I hope we would all agree that there are some views which, if expressed on here, would not and should not be met with any respect whatsoever. Racism and homophobia obviously spring to mind.
Whether anti-vax views fall into the same category, I'm not sure. There is the inherent selfishness of the view that it's all about "my body, my choice", totally ignoring the point that not getting vaccinated greatly increases the chance of onward transmission. Your choice not to get vaccinated or not wear a mask could literally result in someone else getting killed.
For the time being at least, my own view is that most anti-vaxxers are the victims of misinformation more than they are villains. They are rather to be pitied than excoriated.
There is also the point that few people have ever changed their minds as a result of being shouted at. Perhaps those of us who are pro-science and anti-conspiracy theories have a responsibility to keep our discourse civil, in the hope that we might rescue the odd victim from the rabbit hole.
I agree with this for the most part but as we have seen in previous threads, one man's cynic is another man's racist. I suggest that we in the Gasroom focus on our support for Wycombe Wanderers as there are countless other places we can argue about the best way to put the world to rights. In his seminal epistle Steaming In, Colin Ward remarks on football's ability to bring together people who probably wouldn't meet in any other context - "anoraks and casuals united for the day by the love of a team". COYMB!
@OakwoodExile said:
It's difficult, isn't it? I hope we would all agree that there are some views which, if expressed on here, would not and should not be met with any respect whatsoever. Racism and homophobia obviously spring to mind.
Whether anti-vax views fall into the same category, I'm not sure. There is the inherent selfishness of the view that it's all about "my body, my choice", totally ignoring the point that not getting vaccinated greatly increases the chance of onward transmission. Your choice not to get vaccinated or not wear a mask could literally result in someone else getting killed.
For the time being at least, my own view is that most anti-vaxxers are the victims of misinformation more than they are villains. They are rather to be pitied than excoriated.
There is also the point that few people have ever changed their minds as a result of being shouted at. Perhaps those of us who are pro-science and anti-conspiracy theories have a responsibility to keep our discourse civil, in the hope that we might rescue the odd victim from the rabbit hole.
I agree with this for the most part but as we have seen in previous threads, one man's cynic is another man's racist. I suggest that we in the Gasroom focus on our support for Wycombe Wanderers as there are countless other places we can argue about the best way to put the world to rights. In his seminal epistle Steaming In, Colin Ward remarks on football's ability to bring together people who probably wouldn't meet in any other context - "anoraks and casuals united for the day by the love of a team". COYMB!
Comments
I bet you also unironically call people snowflakes.
Classic gasroom over the last 2 pages
I do wonder if we'll be back to restricted capacity soon. It's not exactly looking great out there. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/10/stringent-uk-covid-measures-needed-within-a-week-leak-reveals
WTF?
Whilst we know that our government is a shambles. What harm is it doing anyone that has been jabbed?
In Athens they don't even let you into a shop without showing a passport. Takes 2 seconds to show it and you're in - what's the problem? Surely every government in the world can't be a shambles?
However, what it does do is limit the people that don't want to be/can't be jabbed. I respect that it should be a choice. I had my jab because I was worried about being limited, not worried about catching the virus. That is the shambles.
divide et impera
Been a while then @DevC? The last few months they’ve done away with the shoving it down your throat bit for the lateral tests - only just got to shove it in your nostrils now.
And yes, of course it was about the 10th ‘new’ test that I did before I read the instructions and realised…
Literally zero people have died of this new variant so far. This doesn't appear to be relevant to the discussion.
As for vaccine passports I expect it will be lip service and a tick box exercise. I've been to games in Scotland a handful of times where this has been mandatory for several weeks now and not once have I seen any fan asked for it.
Not directly yet. However IF omicron is 2 or 3 times mores virulent than delta, even if the the hospitalisation rate is 60-70% of delta, the covid related admissions could be between 1.2 and 2.1 times higher than they are now. During the NHS peak times this means less more severe pressure, cancelled appointments and perhaps indirect deaths.
Management in NHS trusts, being non political and data driven, are already looking at how they handle worst case and most likely scenarios - and they are worried. Given that mask wearing and providing confidence to fellow citizens that you’re as low risk as possible doesn’t seem unreasonable ( until sufficient is known about real world figures to re-assess)
Not yet - not in the UK anyway - but it's about maintaining hospital capacity.
I don’t believe that this is true. While no one has yet been recorded of dying from the Omicron variant, excess deaths in South Africa have significantly increased in the last week.
https://www.bloombergquint.com/business/s-african-weekly-excess-deaths-almost-double-amid-omicron-wave
Let’s enjoy todays game just in case further restrictions come in after Xmas. COYB!!!!!!
@LDF stick to your own beliefs and don’t let any negative responses to your posts get you down. Everyone as differing views and hopefully the gasroom regulars will continue to respect that.
If we were all the same life would be bloody boring.
Just had a slightly different perspective on this.
I had a ping from the Covid app saying that I came into contact with someone a few days ago who has since tested positive.
I took the basic test, and went in for the full one and will see what comes of it. (Still throat as well as nose unfortunately)
I wouldn't dream of visiting family and friends until getting the all clear let alone a football stadium full of people wedged together shouting.
Despite the privacy concerns it's wonderful to know the risk and to be able to test, and if necessary isolate rather than passing it on. Vaccination, the apps, quarantine, distancing etc are just tools to stop this thing being forever, nobody HAS to use any of them and none of them are perfect but if you appear to just not fancy doing your bit and increase the risks for everyone then a bit of mocking on a message board is the least of your issues.
I mean, certain views don't deserve respect, so that's not entirely true...
The responses to LDF’s post all seemed to me reasonable and respectful and presented an alternative position without aggression, belittling or anything often seen elsewhere on social media.
Not sure what @Blue_since_1990 was trying to say
All I did was mention that three people had made salient comments. I was then told, in effect, that I'm not welcome here, followed by some nonsense about my allegiances (I had not stated any allegiance) and then some bizarre accusation about 'snowflakes'. I'd hate to see your definition of unreasonable and disrespectful.
Everyone can say what they want. Some people don't like people who don't like what they say and disagree with them. That is called bullying and abuse. Apparently. I am pretty sure no-one has had to 'change their views' as a result of the appalling punishment they get on here.
@LDF
Apologies. I misread @Blue_since_1990’s comments about negative comments as referring to the posts immediately above from @DJWYC14 and the three immediate replies - which were reasonable and balanced.
Not gone back through this thread to see what your original comments were that sparked the snowflakes and other comments. Personally I like to debate in public in a rational manner than throw insults, which at times I may feel though appropriate would not help public discussion.
“Unless the public health system is on the verge of collapse, it is hard to justify treating the decision to treat the unvaccinated differently to the decision to smoke, drink alcohol, eat unhealthily, not exercise etc “. (Professor Julian Savilescu, University of Oxford in The Guardian).
Interesting viewpoint! Whatever you think about his strangulated syntax (let’s hope the writer is not a professor of English!) I wonder how many Gasroomers would agree with his contention.
I’m sure he means “....the decision to treat the unvaccinated differently from those who choose to smoke, drink alcohol, eat unhealthily, not exercise etc”.
The categories he lists, apart from the alcohol drinkers (and then only those who exceed the limits), have nothing like the same capacity as the unvaccinated to inflict harm on others.
Discuss.
It's difficult, isn't it? I hope we would all agree that there are some views which, if expressed on here, would not and should not be met with any respect whatsoever. Racism and homophobia obviously spring to mind.
Whether anti-vax views fall into the same category, I'm not sure. There is the inherent selfishness of the view that it's all about "my body, my choice", totally ignoring the point that not getting vaccinated greatly increases the chance of onward transmission. Your choice not to get vaccinated or not wear a mask could literally result in someone else getting killed.
For the time being at least, my own view is that most anti-vaxxers are the victims of misinformation more than they are villains. They are rather to be pitied than excoriated.
There is also the point that few people have ever changed their minds as a result of being shouted at. Perhaps those of us who are pro-science and anti-conspiracy theories have a responsibility to keep our discourse civil, in the hope that we might rescue the odd victim from the rabbit hole.
Arguably the public health system is on the verge of collapse and was pre-covid but your last point is key @micra as it's possible for one person to infect multiple people and have this scale even further out of control.
Waiting until all hospitals are full to take action whilst rates are on the rise is just bad maths.
The NHS will always be just on the verge of collapse under this Government and the current NHS management structure. Way too much inefficiency and severely lacking in post hospital care options to move people on. The incredible job the working staff do is all the more incredible based on the management they receive and the huge pay disparity in place.
Bullshit comparison isn't it. Yes, drinkers and smokers put strain on the NHS but neither of those habits are a contagious infection.
Whilst I agree it is a very weak comparison by the Professor, it would be interesting to know how many beds are occupied by patients with problems directly resulting from smoking, alcoholism, drug addiction and increasing obesity. If pre covid more emphasis (resources) had been directed at tackling these issues then there would be less pressure on the NHS and less beds occupied.
They’re coming for the crisp eaters.
Thanks @StrongestTeam .
Any other points (eg the number of people occupying hospital beds directly or indirectly as result of the lifestyle examples quoted by Professor Savilescu) are irrelevant in the context of the impact on public health of people choosing not to be vaccinated.
Yikes. T> @Lloyd2084 said:
I get it now. First they vaccinate us and then they diet us. It’s the thin end of the wedge.
I agree with this for the most part but as we have seen in previous threads, one man's cynic is another man's racist. I suggest that we in the Gasroom focus on our support for Wycombe Wanderers as there are countless other places we can argue about the best way to put the world to rights. In his seminal epistle Steaming In, Colin Ward remarks on football's ability to bring together people who probably wouldn't meet in any other context - "anoraks and casuals united for the day by the love of a team". COYMB!
Other threads are available.