@Blue_since_1990 said:
So, @ReturnToSenda you do not respect the fact that people can have different views? Is that what you are trying to say?
I'm saying that certain views don't deserve respect. And you can accept a person's right to hold views without necessarily respecting the views themselves. Obviously once we get into outright bigotry, respect for even the right to hold those views goes out the window.
@OakwoodExile said:
It's difficult, isn't it? I hope we would all agree that there are some views which, if expressed on here, would not and should not be met with any respect whatsoever. Racism and homophobia obviously spring to mind.
Whether anti-vax views fall into the same category, I'm not sure. There is the inherent selfishness of the view that it's all about "my body, my choice", totally ignoring the point that not getting vaccinated greatly increases the chance of onward transmission. Your choice not to get vaccinated or not wear a mask could literally result in someone else getting killed.
For the time being at least, my own view is that most anti-vaxxers are the victims of misinformation more than they are villains. They are rather to be pitied than excoriated.
There is also the point that few people have ever changed their minds as a result of being shouted at. Perhaps those of us who are pro-science and anti-conspiracy theories have a responsibility to keep our discourse civil, in the hope that we might rescue the odd victim from the rabbit hole.
I agree with this for the most part but as we have seen in previous threads, one man's cynic is another man's racist. I suggest that we in the Gasroom focus on our support for Wycombe Wanderers as there are countless other places we can argue about the best way to put the world to rights. In his seminal epistle Steaming In, Colin Ward remarks on football's ability to bring together people who probably wouldn't meet in any other context - "anoraks and casuals united for the day by the love of a team". COYMB!
I read Steaming In whiling away the hours on a coach to Poland to watch England away in 1990. Thanks for the reminder @LDF
I’m vaccinated and will get boosters as soon as I can. I found this article interesting, which seems to be true rather than misinformation.
For me the vaccine is all about reducing the severity of infection you get and then enabling treatment for other illnesses to go ahead on the NHS.
The number of people I know waiting for treatment of other illnesses seems much larger than before.
I agree and that’s why the information coming out from the government is so poor.
If the article is proven to be correct as they build more data then this needs to shared as the potentially false belief that people without a vaccine spread the virus more than someone with it is creating divide and anger.
If the science / data really starts to prove this, then I’d like to see a debate on a proposal that those without the vaccine cannot be admitted to hospital until they agree to take the vaccine. I’d like to hear the debate to get both sides of the story to then make an informed decision of whether I would support such a policy. There maybe something I’ve missed that may persuade me it’s not a good idea or there are exemptions.
We still have an inclusive society where different views and lifestyles are respected. If you wish to ban the unvaccinated from hospital, then you must also ban the drunk who crashed his car or the smoker who has cancer or the overweight or anyone who doesn’t conform to what Government decides is the model citizen.
The article body, and the study, are somewhat at odds with the headline. The original headline was
Covid: vaccinated as likely as unjabbed to infect cohabiters, study suggests which they've since changed to "Jabs do not reduce risk of passing Covid within household, study suggests", which is less accurate given that the article itself says...
The results suggest even those who are fully vaccinated have a sizeable risk of becoming infected, with analysis revealing a fully vaccinated contact has a 25% chance of catching the virus from an infected household member while an unvaccinated contact has a 38% chance of becoming infected.
I'm not a data scientist, but this suggests to me that a fully vaccinated household actually has a statistically significant better outcome than an unvaccinated household, the opposite of what the headline now says. It goes on to say...
The team add that the peak level of virus in infected individuals was the same regardless of whether they were jabbed or not, although these levels dropped off more quickly in the vaccinated people, suggesting they cleared the infection sooner.
So vaccinated people are infectious for less time, which obviously reduces the chance of that person passing it on. Reading the actual, original study, we get this summary...
Vaccination reduces the risk of delta variant infection and accelerates viral clearance. Nonetheless, fully vaccinated individuals with breakthrough infections have peak viral load similar to unvaccinated cases and can efficiently transmit infection in household settings, including to fully vaccinated contacts. Host–virus interactions early in infection may shape the entire viral trajectory.
Quite how the Guardian got from that to "Jabs do not reduce risk of passing Covid within household, study suggests" is anyone's guess, but this reeks of agenda like almost everything the Guardian publishes these days.
Edit: A little bit of searching around the web reveals that this study was reported everywhere else with much more accurate headlines like "Fully Vaccinated Can Spread Delta COVID-19 to Household Members", "Vaccinated easily transmit Delta", "Covid: Double vaccinated can still spread virus at home", "COVID-19 vaccines lower risk of infection with Delta variant, but infection can still be passed on in household settings" and "Scientists say fully vaccinated people can transmit Delta variant". I'd love to know what the Guardian's angle is with such a misleading headline, and why each iteration of that headline got less and less accurate.
If anything, the fact that the virus is so virulent that the vaccinated can still get it (though with happier outcomes) and pass it on...seems to me to be a good argument for the unvaccinated to get it as if we move to the total the lack of restrictions they (and we all to be fair) want it may well prove fatal for them! I would hope that the Bozzer/Cumming theory that only the weak and expendable will die has been proved wrong for most by now!
@drcongo my wider reading suggests this isn't the first instance of the Guardian getting the headline wrong or indeed misunderstanding the science. It may be an unexpected example of the general lack of scientific literacy rather than a specific agenda. After all the British Medical Journal which one might have expected to be reliable isn't immune from publishing nonsense.
The ways things are going, are we even going to be allowed to go on Boxing Day (or Saturday, for that matter)? A million Omicron cases by the end of the month - which is what they were saying the other day - might be optimistic based on today's figures (estimated 200,000 a day).
@Wendoverman said: @ReturnToSenda you sound like you lack confidence in the hearty, sunny optimism and promise of no lockdowns of our glorious leadership.
Man Utd v Brentford off and QPR game off last night. Some clubs asking for masks to be worn inside the stadium and bars etc. Now looking as if further restrictions just around the corner.
I do hope we can continue to attend for the rest of the season.
I for one won’t mind wearing a mask or showing a COVID pass to be able to attend AP.
Weird times indeed.
I’m max’d out on jabs. Had the sodding thing. Like to think I’m pretty pragmatic about my life during a pandemic.
However I’ve been in the Caledonian suite a couple of time recently where I’ve thought this is madness and have decided to leave. No rule breaking. Just seems like a massive opportunity to spread the disease.
Feels likely if this variant does take off as predicted that fixture lists - already starting to be disrupted - are going to be thrown into chaos.
Not impossible, although as tonight’s Commons rebellion shows politically very difficult for a PM who has lost authority, that restrictions to large crowds may come after Christmas.
Not clear quite where we are heading here. Covid in some form will be with us for ever - in ever changing forms. This variant may turn out to be mild in terms of effects but the next may be more deadly. We have never figured out a treatment to cure the cold or flu so feels unlikely we can do so with this either. Perhaps unless the virus decides for itself to become more transmissible but less deadly, we may have to build infrastructure (at huge expense) to cope with large numbers of people being ill each winter but otherwise just live our lives.
@DevC said:
We have never figured out a treatment to cure the cold or flu so feels unlikely we can do so with this either. Perhaps unless the virus decides for itself to become more transmissible but less deadly, we may have to build infrastructure (at huge expense) to cope with large numbers of people being ill each winter but otherwise just live our lives.
If this government had been more proactive rather than constantly reacting too late, they could have used some of the many they billions frittered away on what seems to me little more than publicity stunts, to create an infrastructure just for that purpose @DevC . Or are they now going to have to once again create Nightingale hospitals in redundant exhibitions centres. Well, at least all the equipment they purchased should still be available, always assuming anyone can remember where they stored it.
Like many, despite the relaxation of restrictions, I have continued to wear a mask inside, sanitised, washed hands, etc etc in the hope that we can carry on as normally as possible for as long as possible. It is not going away and we will have to learn to live with it with regular boosters I fear. In my opinion the early default position of our present government of 'how can me and my mates make money out of this' and 'how many deaths can we take politically' rather than any iota of public service did us massive harm at the start of the pandemic and their incompetence since and the two fingers to NHS workers once they thought it was over should have undermined anyone's confidence in them...but of course I still keep hearing 'Poor old Boris...' and there is suddenly an idea going around that at least he got Brexit 'done' when it still seems to be somewhat of an ongoing shambles to me. I hope ways can be found to carry on as far as possible as another year of working from home, no going out, ifollow footy will do my head in!
Just came back from the Middle East. Everyone has an app which has your vaccine status on it and proof of a negative test within 72 hours. Every club, shop, event has someone at the door checking it. Minimal queues, maximum compliance. All pretty easy, didn't feel invasive.
If you don't have a phone then a paper version is acceptable.
Other notes was that a PCR test is a tenna. Testing centres pretty much all over the place.
Just interesting to see how others are doing things. Although the locals still say that their counting seems dodgy and their use of a vaccine with a pretty low success rate has not helped.
Comments
Sew what?
So, @ReturnToSenda you do not respect the fact that people can have different views? Is that what you are trying to say?
I'm saying that certain views don't deserve respect. And you can accept a person's right to hold views without necessarily respecting the views themselves. Obviously once we get into outright bigotry, respect for even the right to hold those views goes out the window.
Ok that’s clear. Thank you for clearing that up @ReturnToSenda
I read Steaming In whiling away the hours on a coach to Poland to watch England away in 1990. Thanks for the reminder @LDF
Sooo...got my passport ready for today's game (thread title) and........?
I’m vaccinated and will get boosters as soon as I can. I found this article interesting, which seems to be true rather than misinformation.
For me the vaccine is all about reducing the severity of infection you get and then enabling treatment for other illnesses to go ahead on the NHS.
The number of people I know waiting for treatment of other illnesses seems much larger than before.
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/28/covid-vaccinated-likely-unjabbed-infect-cohabiters-study-suggests
That's exactly what the vaccine is for. Incredible how many people still seemingly don't get this.
I agree and that’s why the information coming out from the government is so poor.
If the article is proven to be correct as they build more data then this needs to shared as the potentially false belief that people without a vaccine spread the virus more than someone with it is creating divide and anger.
If the science / data really starts to prove this, then I’d like to see a debate on a proposal that those without the vaccine cannot be admitted to hospital until they agree to take the vaccine. I’d like to hear the debate to get both sides of the story to then make an informed decision of whether I would support such a policy. There maybe something I’ve missed that may persuade me it’s not a good idea or there are exemptions.
No absolutely not @Commoner.
We still have an inclusive society where different views and lifestyles are respected. If you wish to ban the unvaccinated from hospital, then you must also ban the drunk who crashed his car or the smoker who has cancer or the overweight or anyone who doesn’t conform to what Government decides is the model citizen.
Not a world I want to live in.
The article body, and the study, are somewhat at odds with the headline. The original headline was
Covid: vaccinated as likely as unjabbed to infect cohabiters, study suggests which they've since changed to "Jabs do not reduce risk of passing Covid within household, study suggests", which is less accurate given that the article itself says...
I'm not a data scientist, but this suggests to me that a fully vaccinated household actually has a statistically significant better outcome than an unvaccinated household, the opposite of what the headline now says. It goes on to say...
So vaccinated people are infectious for less time, which obviously reduces the chance of that person passing it on. Reading the actual, original study, we get this summary...
Quite how the Guardian got from that to "Jabs do not reduce risk of passing Covid within household, study suggests" is anyone's guess, but this reeks of agenda like almost everything the Guardian publishes these days.
Edit: A little bit of searching around the web reveals that this study was reported everywhere else with much more accurate headlines like "Fully Vaccinated Can Spread Delta COVID-19 to Household Members", "Vaccinated easily transmit Delta", "Covid: Double vaccinated can still spread virus at home", "COVID-19 vaccines lower risk of infection with Delta variant, but infection can still be passed on in household settings" and "Scientists say fully vaccinated people can transmit Delta variant". I'd love to know what the Guardian's angle is with such a misleading headline, and why each iteration of that headline got less and less accurate.
If anything, the fact that the virus is so virulent that the vaccinated can still get it (though with happier outcomes) and pass it on...seems to me to be a good argument for the unvaccinated to get it as if we move to the total the lack of restrictions they (and we all to be fair) want it may well prove fatal for them! I would hope that the Bozzer/Cumming theory that only the weak and expendable will die has been proved wrong for most by now!
@drcongo my wider reading suggests this isn't the first instance of the Guardian getting the headline wrong or indeed misunderstanding the science. It may be an unexpected example of the general lack of scientific literacy rather than a specific agenda. After all the British Medical Journal which one might have expected to be reliable isn't immune from publishing nonsense.
The ways things are going, are we even going to be allowed to go on Boxing Day (or Saturday, for that matter)? A million Omicron cases by the end of the month - which is what they were saying the other day - might be optimistic based on today's figures (estimated 200,000 a day).
How are we doing on PPG?
4th
@ReturnToSenda you sound like you lack confidence in the hearty, sunny optimism and promise of no lockdowns of our glorious leadership.
Strange isn't it
Man Utd v Brentford off and QPR game off last night. Some clubs asking for masks to be worn inside the stadium and bars etc. Now looking as if further restrictions just around the corner.
I do hope we can continue to attend for the rest of the season.
I for one won’t mind wearing a mask or showing a COVID pass to be able to attend AP.
Weird times indeed.
I’m max’d out on jabs. Had the sodding thing. Like to think I’m pretty pragmatic about my life during a pandemic.
However I’ve been in the Caledonian suite a couple of time recently where I’ve thought this is madness and have decided to leave. No rule breaking. Just seems like a massive opportunity to spread the disease.
Feels likely if this variant does take off as predicted that fixture lists - already starting to be disrupted - are going to be thrown into chaos.
Not impossible, although as tonight’s Commons rebellion shows politically very difficult for a PM who has lost authority, that restrictions to large crowds may come after Christmas.
Not clear quite where we are heading here. Covid in some form will be with us for ever - in ever changing forms. This variant may turn out to be mild in terms of effects but the next may be more deadly. We have never figured out a treatment to cure the cold or flu so feels unlikely we can do so with this either. Perhaps unless the virus decides for itself to become more transmissible but less deadly, we may have to build infrastructure (at huge expense) to cope with large numbers of people being ill each winter but otherwise just live our lives.
If this government had been more proactive rather than constantly reacting too late, they could have used some of the many they billions frittered away on what seems to me little more than publicity stunts, to create an infrastructure just for that purpose @DevC . Or are they now going to have to once again create Nightingale hospitals in redundant exhibitions centres. Well, at least all the equipment they purchased should still be available, always assuming anyone can remember where they stored it.
Like many, despite the relaxation of restrictions, I have continued to wear a mask inside, sanitised, washed hands, etc etc in the hope that we can carry on as normally as possible for as long as possible. It is not going away and we will have to learn to live with it with regular boosters I fear. In my opinion the early default position of our present government of 'how can me and my mates make money out of this' and 'how many deaths can we take politically' rather than any iota of public service did us massive harm at the start of the pandemic and their incompetence since and the two fingers to NHS workers once they thought it was over should have undermined anyone's confidence in them...but of course I still keep hearing 'Poor old Boris...' and there is suddenly an idea going around that at least he got Brexit 'done' when it still seems to be somewhat of an ongoing shambles to me. I hope ways can be found to carry on as far as possible as another year of working from home, no going out, ifollow footy will do my head in!
Great post @Wendoverman!
Don't worry, they know what they're doing!
Just came back from the Middle East. Everyone has an app which has your vaccine status on it and proof of a negative test within 72 hours. Every club, shop, event has someone at the door checking it. Minimal queues, maximum compliance. All pretty easy, didn't feel invasive.
If you don't have a phone then a paper version is acceptable.
Other notes was that a PCR test is a tenna. Testing centres pretty much all over the place.
Just interesting to see how others are doing things. Although the locals still say that their counting seems dodgy and their use of a vaccine with a pretty low success rate has not helped.
Speaking of PCR tests...
PCR tests are the latest panic buy. The Government insist there is no shortage which is the correct response to make people panic.
Come on @ReturnToSenda it's obvious. 241 people were discharged from hospital between Dominic's first and second statements!