People seem to get two separate issues mixed up here.
There is a question of whether you’ve had a vaccination and whether you should, which is a medical & scientific one.
And then another question about whether it is acceptable to curtail the freedoms of people that choose not to be vaccinated, which is a moral and philosophical one.
Is this arbitrary and facile application of the phrase “it’s just” - can’t recall too much use of it myself - from the same source as the irritating use of ‘so’ at the start of answers to virtually any question nowadays?
Sorry @Onlooker but I still don't understand why you are against having the vaccine. You have said yourself that the vaccine works in reducing the effects of the virus. The "safety" concerns that you mentioned, ALL vaccines have a range of different side-effects and because everyone is different, one person might experience one thing and no-one else will experience a thing. Your main concern comes from all humans being different just like a flu vaccine could hit one person hard for a day and they recover, another person experiences nothing.
Are you aware that the virus mutates in those that are not vaccinated? As the virus is able to grow and spread quicker in those that are unvaccinated, that's when the mutations happen. Whereas, in vaccinated people, the virus is shut down, killed quicker meaning that it's genetic code doesn't have a chance to change.
I find those people who are "Anti-Vaccine" very selfish, gullible in what they read and narrow minded. Look at the bigger picture and those around you. Would you prefer a sore arm and very mild symptoms for a few hours OR good around sharing this virus to everyone you come into contact with, including those treating you in hospital? My sister is a doctor on an Intensive Care Ward, 9 out of the 10 patients (aged between 25-45) there are unvaccinated and its unlikely they will see Christmas is year....
I hope it isn’t too hackneyed a phrase but I believe in everything which is not forbidden is allowed, rather than the opposite.
If CBDC means Central Bank Digital Currency, I am really struggling to see what that (whatever it is) has to do with requiring evidence of covid vaccination or a negative rest before entering a crowded area. Perhaps we leave that bit.
Of course freedom to do as we please is important but we in society do accept having those freedoms curtailed sometimes for the common good.
Could you just confirm you agree with that principle.
Is it OK for example that you are not allowed to drink six pints of beer and then drive if yo want to?
Is it OK that you are not allowed to speed past a school at 70 mph in a residential area if you want to?
@Onlooker How old are you? (If you don't mind me asking?) Did you read my last sentence on my long post? 9 patients who are between 25 & 45 won't be going home to see their family for Christmas this year because they "don't believe" in the vaccine / virus. These patients are normal people, the virus has just attacked them / taken hold more on them which is why they are struggling.
@Glenactico said:
People seem to get two separate issues mixed up here.
There is a question of whether you’ve had a vaccination and whether you should, which is a medical & scientific one.
And then another question about whether it is acceptable to curtail the freedoms of people that choose not to be vaccinated, which is a moral and philosophical one.
Very succinctly put, I know where I stand on both issues. I think it's a long way from @Onlooker.
If you can't make a sensible choice then your choices should be reduced, why should you have "Freedom" when its people who don't have the vaccine that are the ones reducing everyone else's freedom & quality of life?
@Otter87 said: @Onlooker How old are you? (If you don't mind me asking?) Did you read my last sentence on my long post? 9 patients who are between 25 & 45 won't be going home to see their family for Christmas this year because they "don't believe" in the vaccine / virus. These patients are normal people, the virus has just attacked them / taken hold more on them which is why they are struggling.
I'm 50 years old and I've had COVID so of course I believe in it.
@Glenactico said:
People seem to get two separate issues mixed up here.
There is a question of whether you’ve had a vaccination and whether you should, which is a medical & scientific one.
And then another question about whether it is acceptable to curtail the freedoms of people that choose not to be vaccinated, which is a moral and philosophical one.
Very succinctly put, I know where I stand on both issues. I think it's a long way from @Onlooker.
The common theme here seems to be whether people believe in the concept of rights and responsibilities.
I hope it isn’t too hackneyed a phrase but I believe in everything which is not forbidden is allowed, rather than the opposite.
If CBDC means Central Bank Digital Currency, I am really struggling to see what that (whatever it is) has to do with requiring evidence of covid vaccination or a negative rest before entering a crowded area. Perhaps we leave that bit.
Of course freedom to do as we please is important but we in society do accept having those freedoms curtailed sometimes for the common good.
Could you just confirm you agree with that principle.
Is it OK for example that you are not allowed to drink six pints of beer and then drive if yo want to?
Is it OK that you are not allowed to speed past a school at 70 mph in a residential area if you want to?
Yes, and I have complied with the Coronavirus Act.
Yes, I agree 100% re drink driving and speeding. Both are extremely dangerous and are proven without any doubt to significantly increase the risk of injury or death. I don't think I'm putting someone who is vaccinated and boosted at similar risk if I've recovered from COVID and am healthy.
Yes, and I have complied with the Coronavirus Act.
Yes, I agree 100% re drink driving and speeding. Both are extremely dangerous and are proven without any doubt to significantly increase the risk of injury or death. I don't think I'm putting someone who is vaccinated and boosted at similar risk if I've recovered from COVID and am healthy.
Just because you have recovered from COVID before, whats to say that the next time will be the same? I don't recall seeing a news paper article / story where someone has come out saying "I wish I had never had the COVID jab". However, I see daily stories / articles from people saying "I wish I HAD taken the COVID jab when I had the chance"
Ok good . You accept the principle that it is acceptable for us to collectively decide to restrict your individual freedoms for the common good but would want to add the corollary that those freedoms should only be curtailed when necessary. I think few would argue with that principle.
So your beef with “vaccine passports” is not in fact a matter of principles about “freedom” but more a technical question about whether vaccines work against this disease. As the disease is new and evolving rapidly it’s impossible to be definitive. However there seems to be strong scientific evidence if not yet conclusive proof that being vaccinated not only makes you less likely to catch the disease and if you do catch it likely to make it less severe but also that being vaccinated makes you less likely to pass the disease on to others.
There is a case that given that we collectively pay for any treatment you may need so to mitigate that cost we have the right to insist you are vaccinated but for me that would go over the line.
However I can see a strong case to say that if you choose not to be vaccinated, not only putting yourself at greater risk but also putting others at greater risk, then we have the right to restrict your movements to protect others.
Could you highlight where if anywhere you disagree.
I wouldn't hesitate if I was 70+, had comorbidities or was obese.
I'm concerned that the pandemic/vaccines are being used as a pretext to bring in digital passports.
If they try and implement a CCP style mandatory digital passport for everyone, I'll stand shoulder to shoulder with you on the street and protest it and resist it.
But I'm not going to turn down a vaccine to help the rest of the society I live in, because it might soften the ground for a digital passport in the future.
If you don't want to get vaccinated, that is your choice - your right, even.
But people don't have to respect that choice (I certainly don't), and don't be surprised when you're not allowed to do certain things because of your own selfishness and/or thickness.
You really don’t get it do you, @Onlooker.
My daughter is a year older than you. She and all her family were very poorly with Covid shortly after their first jab. Since then, all four of them have had the second jab and, because of underlying, immunosuppressive conditions/treatments, the Pfizer booster. Likewise, my wife and I. All six of us experience anxiety and fear when, for example, some ignorant, selfish fellow shopper with no face covering thrusts an arm and their face between us and the items we are about to take from the shelf in front of us. I tend to jump away (which at my age isn’t easy).
All that is very personal of course but very real. I don’t know whether you saw the brilliant Richard Dimbleby Memorial Lecture by Professor Dame Sarah Gilbert on BBC TV the other evening. Available on iPlayer no doubt. Apparently without notes, she spoke with supreme clarity and unfaltering fluency for 50 minutes about events in the world of vaccine research and development before and during the pandemic. Essential viewing for anyone who thinks “freedom” is not having to get vaccinated.
As soon as someone posts one of those lists off that social media you should immediately begin to realise your time is being wasted on a pointless pub argument and give it up. Good luck to @Onlooker in his fight to save us from nanobotic economic surveillancing.
@Otter87 plenty out there @DevC my beef with digital passports is that they will go far beyond vaccine status. I didn't need any treatment for COVID - if receiving in the future is conditional on vaccination I wouldn't change my mind. I respect your opinion on restricting my movements, although I'm still not convinced I am putting others at any more risk than someone who is double vaccinated and boosted. As I've said before, I'm concerned about what comes next.
I wouldn't hesitate if I was 70+, had comorbidities or was obese.
I'm concerned that the pandemic/vaccines are being used as a pretext to bring in digital passports.
If they try and implement a CCP style mandatory digital passport for everyone, I'll stand shoulder to shoulder with you on the street and protest it and resist it.
But I'm not going to turn down a vaccine to help the rest of the society I live in, because it might soften the ground for a digital passport in the future.
Comments
@Onlooker have you had anyone in your family or maybe a friend die of COVID?
People seem to get two separate issues mixed up here.
There is a question of whether you’ve had a vaccination and whether you should, which is a medical & scientific one.
And then another question about whether it is acceptable to curtail the freedoms of people that choose not to be vaccinated, which is a moral and philosophical one.
Is this arbitrary and facile application of the phrase “it’s just” - can’t recall too much use of it myself - from the same source as the irritating use of ‘so’ at the start of answers to virtually any question nowadays?
Sorry @Onlooker but I still don't understand why you are against having the vaccine. You have said yourself that the vaccine works in reducing the effects of the virus. The "safety" concerns that you mentioned, ALL vaccines have a range of different side-effects and because everyone is different, one person might experience one thing and no-one else will experience a thing. Your main concern comes from all humans being different just like a flu vaccine could hit one person hard for a day and they recover, another person experiences nothing.
Are you aware that the virus mutates in those that are not vaccinated? As the virus is able to grow and spread quicker in those that are unvaccinated, that's when the mutations happen. Whereas, in vaccinated people, the virus is shut down, killed quicker meaning that it's genetic code doesn't have a chance to change.
I find those people who are "Anti-Vaccine" very selfish, gullible in what they read and narrow minded. Look at the bigger picture and those around you. Would you prefer a sore arm and very mild symptoms for a few hours OR good around sharing this virus to everyone you come into contact with, including those treating you in hospital? My sister is a doctor on an Intensive Care Ward, 9 out of the 10 patients (aged between 25-45) there are unvaccinated and its unlikely they will see Christmas is year....
@OxfordBlue and @Otter87
I wouldn't hesitate if I was 70+, had comorbidities or was obese.
I'm concerned that the pandemic/vaccines are being used as a pretext to bring in digital passports.
If you can't have a vaccine due to medical reason, thats the only understandable reason for you not to have the vaccine
@micra https://fullfact.org/health/economist-vaccination-status/
Vaccines are being used to save lives for gods sake!,,,,
So getting vaccinated to help yourself would be no problem for you. But you're not prepared to do it to protect others. Nice.
@Blue_since_1990 Yes, I know people who died and Covid-19 on their death certificates.
And that doesn’t make you feel you should have a jab to protect you and your family?
Hospital's and ambulances being full of non vaxxed covid cases are putting all sorts of other people at higher risk.
The same people who won't do their bit are the ones asking why it's dragging on and why there are restrictions.
The fact the Government are lying pricks won't help but we need to crack on in spite of them not because of them
It’s just that you didn’t really know them or care enough about them to wish that they’d been vaccinated?
If CBDC means Central Bank Digital Currency, I am really struggling to see what that (whatever it is) has to do with requiring evidence of covid vaccination or a negative rest before entering a crowded area. Perhaps we leave that bit.
Of course freedom to do as we please is important but we in society do accept having those freedoms curtailed sometimes for the common good.
Could you just confirm you agree with that principle.
Is it OK for example that you are not allowed to drink six pints of beer and then drive if yo want to?
Is it OK that you are not allowed to speed past a school at 70 mph in a residential area if you want to?
I cared about them deeply but they were not in the best of health before all this. I have no idea if they were vaccinated or not.
@Onlooker How old are you? (If you don't mind me asking?) Did you read my last sentence on my long post? 9 patients who are between 25 & 45 won't be going home to see their family for Christmas this year because they "don't believe" in the vaccine / virus. These patients are normal people, the virus has just attacked them / taken hold more on them which is why they are struggling.
Very succinctly put, I know where I stand on both issues. I think it's a long way from @Onlooker.
If you can't make a sensible choice then your choices should be reduced, why should you have "Freedom" when its people who don't have the vaccine that are the ones reducing everyone else's freedom & quality of life?
I'm 50 years old and I've had COVID so of course I believe in it.
The common theme here seems to be whether people believe in the concept of rights and responsibilities.
You can't have the former without the latter.
Yes, and I have complied with the Coronavirus Act.
Yes, I agree 100% re drink driving and speeding. Both are extremely dangerous and are proven without any doubt to significantly increase the risk of injury or death. I don't think I'm putting someone who is vaccinated and boosted at similar risk if I've recovered from COVID and am healthy.
Just because you have recovered from COVID before, whats to say that the next time will be the same? I don't recall seeing a news paper article / story where someone has come out saying "I wish I had never had the COVID jab". However, I see daily stories / articles from people saying "I wish I HAD taken the COVID jab when I had the chance"
Ok good . You accept the principle that it is acceptable for us to collectively decide to restrict your individual freedoms for the common good but would want to add the corollary that those freedoms should only be curtailed when necessary. I think few would argue with that principle.
So your beef with “vaccine passports” is not in fact a matter of principles about “freedom” but more a technical question about whether vaccines work against this disease. As the disease is new and evolving rapidly it’s impossible to be definitive. However there seems to be strong scientific evidence if not yet conclusive proof that being vaccinated not only makes you less likely to catch the disease and if you do catch it likely to make it less severe but also that being vaccinated makes you less likely to pass the disease on to others.
There is a case that given that we collectively pay for any treatment you may need so to mitigate that cost we have the right to insist you are vaccinated but for me that would go over the line.
However I can see a strong case to say that if you choose not to be vaccinated, not only putting yourself at greater risk but also putting others at greater risk, then we have the right to restrict your movements to protect others.
Could you highlight where if anywhere you disagree.
If they try and implement a CCP style mandatory digital passport for everyone, I'll stand shoulder to shoulder with you on the street and protest it and resist it.
But I'm not going to turn down a vaccine to help the rest of the society I live in, because it might soften the ground for a digital passport in the future.
Oh no, you've downloaded a picture off Facebook. I can't compete with that level of logic and debate
It's really quite simple:
If you don't want to get vaccinated, that is your choice - your right, even.
But people don't have to respect that choice (I certainly don't), and don't be surprised when you're not allowed to do certain things because of your own selfishness and/or thickness.
You really don’t get it do you, @Onlooker.
My daughter is a year older than you. She and all her family were very poorly with Covid shortly after their first jab. Since then, all four of them have had the second jab and, because of underlying, immunosuppressive conditions/treatments, the Pfizer booster. Likewise, my wife and I. All six of us experience anxiety and fear when, for example, some ignorant, selfish fellow shopper with no face covering thrusts an arm and their face between us and the items we are about to take from the shelf in front of us. I tend to jump away (which at my age isn’t easy).
All that is very personal of course but very real. I don’t know whether you saw the brilliant Richard Dimbleby Memorial Lecture by Professor Dame Sarah Gilbert on BBC TV the other evening. Available on iPlayer no doubt. Apparently without notes, she spoke with supreme clarity and unfaltering fluency for 50 minutes about events in the world of vaccine research and development before and during the pandemic. Essential viewing for anyone who thinks “freedom” is not having to get vaccinated.
As soon as someone posts one of those lists off that social media you should immediately begin to realise your time is being wasted on a pointless pub argument and give it up. Good luck to @Onlooker in his fight to save us from nanobotic economic surveillancing.
@Otter87 plenty out there
@DevC my beef with digital passports is that they will go far beyond vaccine status. I didn't need any treatment for COVID - if receiving in the future is conditional on vaccination I wouldn't change my mind. I respect your opinion on restricting my movements, although I'm still not convinced I am putting others at any more risk than someone who is double vaccinated and boosted. As I've said before, I'm concerned about what comes next.
Fair enough