@Quarterman said:
Back to MBS’s original question. I know that this comes from a place of mainly just being tired of the style of play and gamesmanship we employ, and when in a bad run this feeling definitely comes to the fore more quickly. It is only 7 games since we were top of the league, that is quite crazy when we think of how down we all feel.
Bottom line, although I am probably more critical about our style than most, my answer is unequivocally No. Gareth has done an unbelievable job for the club in the last decade, has shown great loyalty to us at different times and wonderful fortitude in difficult times. He has been absolutely magnificent for our club.
But I want to see him do four things in the next 18 months or so. Get back to his favoured defensive shape for many years (4 at the back and 2 holding midfielders). Refresh the squad defensively with 3 or 4 new players. Evolve the style of play - not a massive change, direct football is fine and much more interesting to watch than the interminable passing around the back/short goal kick style which I personally find very dull. But there is a difference between direct and long ball. We have the players to play great passing football in the final third at times, we’ve seen it this season and we need to try to play more like that more often. Finally, I’d like to see a change in attitude to be more confident, less gamesmanship etc. We are one of the better sides in League 1 now and that should reflect in how we approach the game. Driving home and attacking when on top against weaker sides rather than mostly trying to just defend a lead.
You said that much better and so more eloquently than I very feebly tried to say on the match thread earlier... basically, I agree
But it's interesting reading the style of play/shape stuff on here. My take is that when we played with 2 relative defensive midfielders in front of a back 4, we didn't have enough attacking oomph when playing decent teams (i.e. all last season) and that was, I think, a fairly common perception amongst Wanderers fans. As a result we changed the shape to give ourselves more flexibility and scope for including attacking players. I actually think it's still the right approach, the players just have to be better at it and about managing the phases of the game - for instance, not pushing the wingbacks on so much when we are 2 goals to the good. And if Scowen, Gape and Thompson could be fit and match-ready for long enough to be the 2 infront of the back 4, that would also be really welcome.
I also think this is probably the most stark turnaround in median gasroom opinion I can remember: from the unbelievably-good-squad days to the not-enough-guts and major-clear-out days in what seems like no time. I don't think either are or were right.
When McCarthy shins one in on Tuesday to win it for us in the 95th minute, the sunlit uplands will appear behind the Main Stand again.
My take on the formation thing: when we played with a back three at the end of last season, we mostly seemed to have a back four when attacking - it was rare that both wingbacks would join the same attack, if one was in possession the other would stay back in a more fullback role. Sometimes one of the centre backs would get forward and we’d be down to three at the back. This season though, the wingbacks are playing as wingers. Regularly they’re both deep in the oppo half, and sometimes one or more of the centre backs is up there with them leaving one or two defenders and making it incredibly easy to counter on us. Given that McCarthy is definitely not a winger, I’d like this to stop.
My new 4lb 6oz Granddaughter Harriet (who btw is perfect in every way and whom I met yesterday for the first time), definitely said "Believe" to me, when I told her that Wycombe were losing 3-2 and were on a poor run!!
Also, I hope we can demonstrate some support for the people of Ukraine on Tuesday.
@ValleyWanderer said:
My new 4lb 6oz Granddaughter Harriet (who btw is perfect in every way and whom I met yesterday for the first time), definitely said "Believe" to me, when I told her that Wycombe were losing 3-2 and were on a poor run!!
Also, I hope we can demonstrate some support for the people of Ukraine on Tuesday.
Congratulations again, @ValleyWanderer! Harriet sounds like quite the optimist...
Change - yes. Change Manager - no.
Under Ainsworth we have always gone on hot streaks and cold streaks. The difference which is causing so much emotion is the expectation the owners have brought in plus our season in the Championship.
Our target for all but one season under Ainsworth (this season) was to get 55 points as soon as we could and then see what we could do next once that was achieved.
I think other teams have worked out how to play against our back three/five. We regularly employ four full backs/wing backs in that system and one recognised central defender.
We also had a lot of pace and unpredictability in that side that finished the season. Adeniran, Muskwe, Ikpeazu, McCleary and Onyedinma are all massive misses. We could really hit people on the counter attack. Those players were not afraid to take people on and would generally ghost past defenders.
Our current squad is good but it's not a patch on those five.
We have been at our best when we mix up play, calculated long balls and then quick short passing in the final third. The two center mids pressing after the long ball has been played to pick up the second ball.
We are at our worst when we hit and hope a long ball and there is no press to pick up the second ball. We then compound that further by not playing any short passes.
One thing that certainly hasn't worked (except Fleetwood for about 30 minutes) is having Bayo and Vokes on the pitch at the same time. It's got to be one or the other. In my mind it allowed Wigan and MK Dons to close out the game so much more easily than if we had made a straight swap and left wingers either side of big center forward. I just don't see the two of them ever really working against top half sides.
Final thought is that we are a very small squad. Accrington completely dominated us in the air on Saturday. Vokes didn't win a single ball in the first half, he was completely out jumped time and again by their massive center backs. Not Vokes fault, they were just very tall and odds on to win more balls.
When we were defending, they had 6 players taller than our tallest player on the pitch. It was just too easy for them. Forino made a huge difference when he came on. It was crying out for him at half-time, let alone when he came on.
Totally agree with all of that @Commoner. I’ve struggled (goodness knows why) to understand why we haven’t been able to replicate the stunning performances towards the end of last season. I’ve mentioned how much we miss Uche and Fred but stupidly overlooked Adeniran and Muskwe. McCleary of course just hasn’t quite been himself lately. The height thing has also occasionally been a factor. Add in injuries, one or two mysterious “no shows” and it all adds up. Wing backs bombing on and sometimes neglecting (or not being fully up to) their defensive duties and you have (arguably!) the perfect storm.
Quite a few people have mentioned that we've been streaky under Ainsworth - which is true, but at what point do we stop accepting that? Serious promotion contenders - which we're not yet - don't have these runs.
@our_frank said:
if I saw the photos of him drinking champagne from one of Boris Johnson's brogues at a Lockdown breaching party, I'd have a think about it.
How will we finish this season? What do the last 12 games hold for us?
How will the club and GA reflect at the end of the season on what went well, what was ok and what was wrong. How do they intend to put that right over the summer and into next season.
I do not know whether it is his decision or the owners but the complete lack of loan signings this season is something that is very new to us and in my mind has reduced the quality of the squad. If it is a conscious decision then I think it needs reviewing. I appreciate Knight, Adeniran and Muskwe went elsewhere but we shouldn't cut our nose off to spite our face.
What is driving our decision to continue with a back three? With more defensive options in the squad could we have reverted to a back four. Is the former or latter driving the decision? Or is it injuries and form?
It's a 46 game season and for me there is no question that he should be given the chance to complete this season (and hopefully beyond). I'm hoping 6 or 7 wins, a few draws and defeats will be enough for us to squeeze into the play-offs.
If we don't win again this season and seriously plummet, then of course tough conversations need to take place.
Two wins this week will rapidly change the landscape and direction, I fully believe we will get 6 points this week and we can put this run of form behind us.
If it was policy not to make loan signings anymore, we wouldn't have brought Young in, but that feels like one of the strangest signings we've ever made - brought him in just so he can 'be around a first-team environment' was it?
One thing I would like to say is that it’s such a pleasure reading the predominantly measured and intelligent posts on the Gasroom compared to the cliched, thoughtless nonsense (with the odd exception) on Facebook. I don’t agree with everything that is said on here, but at least it’s expressed in a articulate manner (again with the odd exception).
Before anyone says ‘don’t read Facebook then’ I always monitored social media when I was running our media operation and offered to continue doing that to help reduce the workload for the excellent Matt Cecil.
@glasshalffull said:
One thing I would like to say is that it’s such a pleasure reading the predominantly measured and intelligent posts on the Gasroom compared to the cliched, thoughtless nonsense (with the odd exception) on Facebook. I don’t agree with everything that is said on here, but at least it’s expressed in a articulate manner (again with the odd exception).
Before anyone says ‘don’t read Facebook then’ I always monitored social media when I was running our media operation and offered to continue doing that to help reduce the workload for the excellent Matt Cecil.
Can I ask a question then please Alan re Facebook ? Seeing as you say you are helping Matt still, it's so easy to block individuals these days on Facebook, can anything or why hasn't anything been done about all of our new Iraqi followers that spew constant hate on there ? Homophobic, racist, I even saw one the other week that threatened to come over and bomb us all !! They openly admit they don't support the club, only Al Hamadi himself. I know a lot of of supporters are sick of it every game.
We have the longest serving manager in the league, and he is the most successful manager in our history, whilst at the same time being a thoroughly decent, likeable bloke whilst also being effortlessly cool.
We are not a normal club, he is not a normal manager and these are not normal circumstances.
In short, he gets to decide when he walks away, not us. And rightly so, he's more than earned it.
@eric_plant said:
We have the longest serving manager in the league, and he is the most successful manager in our history, whilst at the same time being a thoroughly decent, likeable bloke whilst also being effortlessly cool.
We are not a normal club, he is not a normal manager and these are not normal circumstances.
In short, he gets to decide when he walks away, not us. And rightly so, he's more than earned it.
@eric_plant said:
We have the longest serving manager in the league, and he is the most successful manager in our history, whilst at the same time being a thoroughly decent, likeable bloke whilst also being effortlessly cool.
We are not a normal club, he is not a normal manager and these are not normal circumstances.
In short, he gets to decide when he walks away, not us. And rightly so, he's more than earned it.
I personally hope he's here for years to come
Well said Eric and (worryingly ?) I’m beginning to agree with you more and more!
@glasshalffull said:
One thing I would like to say is that it’s such a pleasure reading the predominantly measured and intelligent posts on the Gasroom compared to the cliched, thoughtless nonsense (with the odd exception) on Facebook. I don’t agree with everything that is said on here, but at least it’s expressed in a articulate manner (again with the odd exception).
Before anyone says ‘don’t read Facebook then’ I always monitored social media when I was running our media operation and offered to continue doing that to help reduce the workload for the excellent Matt Cecil.
Can I ask a question then please Alan re Facebook ? Seeing as you say you are helping Matt still, it's so easy to block individuals these days on Facebook, can anything or why hasn't anything been done about all of our new Iraqi followers that spew constant hate on there ? Homophobic, racist, I even saw one the other week that threatened to come over and bomb us all !! They openly admit they don't support the club, only Al Hamadi himself. I know a lot of of supporters are sick of it every game.
I agree that some of these posts are disgraceful. I have personally responded to some of the worst comments on this subject but I will forward your concerns to Matt Cecil if they continue.
@eric_plant said:
We have the longest serving manager in the league, and he is the most successful manager in our history, whilst at the same time being a thoroughly decent, likeable bloke whilst also being effortlessly cool.
We are not a normal club, he is not a normal manager and these are not normal circumstances.
In short, he gets to decide when he walks away, not us. And rightly so, he's more than earned it.
I personally hope he's here for years to come
Well said Eric and (worryingly ?) I’m beginning to agree with you more and more!
Comments
You said that much better and so more eloquently than I very feebly tried to say on the match thread earlier... basically, I agree
so obviously, No.
But it's interesting reading the style of play/shape stuff on here. My take is that when we played with 2 relative defensive midfielders in front of a back 4, we didn't have enough attacking oomph when playing decent teams (i.e. all last season) and that was, I think, a fairly common perception amongst Wanderers fans. As a result we changed the shape to give ourselves more flexibility and scope for including attacking players. I actually think it's still the right approach, the players just have to be better at it and about managing the phases of the game - for instance, not pushing the wingbacks on so much when we are 2 goals to the good. And if Scowen, Gape and Thompson could be fit and match-ready for long enough to be the 2 infront of the back 4, that would also be really welcome.
I also think this is probably the most stark turnaround in median gasroom opinion I can remember: from the unbelievably-good-squad days to the not-enough-guts and major-clear-out days in what seems like no time. I don't think either are or were right.
When McCarthy shins one in on Tuesday to win it for us in the 95th minute, the sunlit uplands will appear behind the Main Stand again.
My take on the formation thing: when we played with a back three at the end of last season, we mostly seemed to have a back four when attacking - it was rare that both wingbacks would join the same attack, if one was in possession the other would stay back in a more fullback role. Sometimes one of the centre backs would get forward and we’d be down to three at the back. This season though, the wingbacks are playing as wingers. Regularly they’re both deep in the oppo half, and sometimes one or more of the centre backs is up there with them leaving one or two defenders and making it incredibly easy to counter on us. Given that McCarthy is definitely not a winger, I’d like this to stop.
My new 4lb 6oz Granddaughter Harriet (who btw is perfect in every way and whom I met yesterday for the first time), definitely said "Believe" to me, when I told her that Wycombe were losing 3-2 and were on a poor run!!
Also, I hope we can demonstrate some support for the people of Ukraine on Tuesday.
Congratulations again, @ValleyWanderer! Harriet sounds like quite the optimist...
Change - yes. Change Manager - no.
Under Ainsworth we have always gone on hot streaks and cold streaks. The difference which is causing so much emotion is the expectation the owners have brought in plus our season in the Championship.
Our target for all but one season under Ainsworth (this season) was to get 55 points as soon as we could and then see what we could do next once that was achieved.
I think other teams have worked out how to play against our back three/five. We regularly employ four full backs/wing backs in that system and one recognised central defender.
We also had a lot of pace and unpredictability in that side that finished the season. Adeniran, Muskwe, Ikpeazu, McCleary and Onyedinma are all massive misses. We could really hit people on the counter attack. Those players were not afraid to take people on and would generally ghost past defenders.
Our current squad is good but it's not a patch on those five.
We have been at our best when we mix up play, calculated long balls and then quick short passing in the final third. The two center mids pressing after the long ball has been played to pick up the second ball.
We are at our worst when we hit and hope a long ball and there is no press to pick up the second ball. We then compound that further by not playing any short passes.
One thing that certainly hasn't worked (except Fleetwood for about 30 minutes) is having Bayo and Vokes on the pitch at the same time. It's got to be one or the other. In my mind it allowed Wigan and MK Dons to close out the game so much more easily than if we had made a straight swap and left wingers either side of big center forward. I just don't see the two of them ever really working against top half sides.
Final thought is that we are a very small squad. Accrington completely dominated us in the air on Saturday. Vokes didn't win a single ball in the first half, he was completely out jumped time and again by their massive center backs. Not Vokes fault, they were just very tall and odds on to win more balls.
When we were defending, they had 6 players taller than our tallest player on the pitch. It was just too easy for them. Forino made a huge difference when he came on. It was crying out for him at half-time, let alone when he came on.
@Commoner McCleary is still here y'know ?
Totally agree with all of that @Commoner. I’ve struggled (goodness knows why) to understand why we haven’t been able to replicate the stunning performances towards the end of last season. I’ve mentioned how much we miss Uche and Fred but stupidly overlooked Adeniran and Muskwe. McCleary of course just hasn’t quite been himself lately. The height thing has also occasionally been a factor. Add in injuries, one or two mysterious “no shows” and it all adds up. Wing backs bombing on and sometimes neglecting (or not being fully up to) their defensive duties and you have (arguably!) the perfect storm.
Fair point, I started with those 5 being pacey and unpredictable and then meant to remove McCleary from the following sentence!
Admittedly he has felt missing of late
Quite a few people have mentioned that we've been streaky under Ainsworth - which is true, but at what point do we stop accepting that? Serious promotion contenders - which we're not yet - don't have these runs.
And another question, what would it take for people to say yes to a change of manager? Just curious.
if I saw the photos of him drinking champagne from one of Boris Johnson's brogues at a Lockdown breaching party, I'd have a think about it.
Grim
I don't actually know myself - definitely not there yet, as rubbish as things are at the moment!
In my head I am waiting on the following:
How will we finish this season? What do the last 12 games hold for us?
How will the club and GA reflect at the end of the season on what went well, what was ok and what was wrong. How do they intend to put that right over the summer and into next season.
I do not know whether it is his decision or the owners but the complete lack of loan signings this season is something that is very new to us and in my mind has reduced the quality of the squad. If it is a conscious decision then I think it needs reviewing. I appreciate Knight, Adeniran and Muskwe went elsewhere but we shouldn't cut our nose off to spite our face.
What is driving our decision to continue with a back three? With more defensive options in the squad could we have reverted to a back four. Is the former or latter driving the decision? Or is it injuries and form?
It's a 46 game season and for me there is no question that he should be given the chance to complete this season (and hopefully beyond). I'm hoping 6 or 7 wins, a few draws and defeats will be enough for us to squeeze into the play-offs.
If we don't win again this season and seriously plummet, then of course tough conversations need to take place.
Two wins this week will rapidly change the landscape and direction, I fully believe we will get 6 points this week and we can put this run of form behind us.
If it was policy not to make loan signings anymore, we wouldn't have brought Young in, but that feels like one of the strangest signings we've ever made - brought him in just so he can 'be around a first-team environment' was it?
But Jack Young bossed the midfield against Long Crendon, don’t yer know?!?
One thing I would like to say is that it’s such a pleasure reading the predominantly measured and intelligent posts on the Gasroom compared to the cliched, thoughtless nonsense (with the odd exception) on Facebook. I don’t agree with everything that is said on here, but at least it’s expressed in a articulate manner (again with the odd exception).
Before anyone says ‘don’t read Facebook then’ I always monitored social media when I was running our media operation and offered to continue doing that to help reduce the workload for the excellent Matt Cecil.
You have my sympathy @glasshalffull
Can I ask a question then please Alan re Facebook ? Seeing as you say you are helping Matt still, it's so easy to block individuals these days on Facebook, can anything or why hasn't anything been done about all of our new Iraqi followers that spew constant hate on there ? Homophobic, racist, I even saw one the other week that threatened to come over and bomb us all !! They openly admit they don't support the club, only Al Hamadi himself. I know a lot of of supporters are sick of it every game.
We also had the excellent Josh Knight at the back or in midfield @micra
Bottom six at Christmas.
We have the longest serving manager in the league, and he is the most successful manager in our history, whilst at the same time being a thoroughly decent, likeable bloke whilst also being effortlessly cool.
We are not a normal club, he is not a normal manager and these are not normal circumstances.
In short, he gets to decide when he walks away, not us. And rightly so, he's more than earned it.
I personally hope he's here for years to come
Completely agree
Depends on the situation - he does still answer to the board - but it is most likely that he leaves on his own terms.
Well said Eric and (worryingly ?) I’m beginning to agree with you more and more!
I agree that some of these posts are disgraceful. I have personally responded to some of the worst comments on this subject but I will forward your concerns to Matt Cecil if they continue.
They all come round in the end
"around"