I think it's a positive move from the Premier League to bring Jarred Gillett in (well, he was in the EFL first, but he's only the second overseas ref in PL history). Maybe that's a route we'll explore more going forward.
@DevC said:
You must have watched hundreds perhaps thousands of games Alan and gave an instant opinion on what you think you have seen. Can you honesty say you have never been reasonably sure you have seen something happen only to be subsequently proven wrong by the video?
The referee made a mistake - it happens. I am sure he feels pretty bad about it now.
Really we have two choices. Accept the reality that that will happen or utilise technology top correct those errors when they occur. Which would you prefer?
I would answer you with two points-first our commentary positions are usually a long way from the pitch so we are in a much worse position than referees to make a call and, more importantly, whatever a commentator says is not going to affect the outcome of the game.
Of course not Alan.
But you and the refs are both human
You and the refs are both trying not to make mistakes
Sometimes sadly you both get it wrong.
It’s what humans do.
Perhaps the ref in this case will wake up having sleepless nights about his decision…..
Only a matter of time surely before technology develops to correct commentator error - VACuous perhaps?
@LX1 said:
On possession stats...largely irrelevant when assessing the probability of success. Indicator of style of play
Not perhaps when combined with 23 shots against 5 which shows great defensive resilience on the part of the side conceding 23, especially after “losing” a key defender and makes a mockery of my prediction that Shrewsbury will score two against us this evening. Wish I’d delayed that prediction in the light of yesterday’s rescindment but who knows.......
@ReturnToSenda said:
Of course professionals make mistakes, but the part-timers at our level make considerably more. The standard just is not good enough, as we all know. There's an easy solution there, but those with the power to make the change don't seem to want to.
Professionalising the referees is one step but not the only one to take. There needs to be clarity, visibility and transparency in a process on referees “learning” (or being punished) for mistakes.
It needs to be done in a fashion and so it doesn’t become a witch hunt, or worse, a reason for the referees to clam up and become even more of a closed door than it already is.
It should start with mistakes that have a clear impact on a result of a game - incorrect penalty decisions, red cards - to start with and expand/retract scope as and when experience builds.
There is already a clear, visible and transparent process of players get things wrong on the pitch (booking/sending off/bans dependant on what they did) but nothing if a referee makes a mistake that results in a goal/sending off that disadvantages a team.
I have no faith in the system for correcting and learning from honest mistakes,
Don't the managers mark the performance of the referees at each match. Perhaps the publication of a league table of these scores (and/or the EFL match assessors scores). That would identify the best refs and perhaps encourage those near the bottom of the table to up their game.
Herein lies the problem, in my mind, with the culture that social media, skysports have brought to the modern day.
No longer can accidents happen, there has to be fault and where there is fault someone has to be punished.
Part of any sport is dealing with the mistakes that humans make, whether they are players, managers or referees.
This is a complete overreaction to a split second decision that with hindsight was wrong.
TV has brought the benefit of being able to slow everything down, to analyse the minutiae and then say the ref was right or wrong. He gets one chance at full speed to make a decision.
This constant over analysis and criticism of referees has to stop. I'd genuinely like to see all professional players, managers go and referee kids matches locally in the community, just to realise how difficult it is. I'd like to see more support for referees and understanding shown. It is a thankless task.
How can we improve this? There must be a consultation and an insistence on consultation with the other three officials at the game for major decisions by the powers that be. Perhaps, along these lines.
4 officials are all microphoned up.
In this type of situation, he wants to award a penalty and potentially a red card.
He asks the question to his other officials:
Is there any reason why I cannot award the penalty?
Answer yes or no.
Did he make a genuine attempt to play the ball?
Answer yes or no.
Is there any reason why I should give a red card, instead of a yellow card?
Answer yes or no.
At this point the other officials may have an opportunity to remind him of the double jeopardy rule now in force.
The other officials then have an opportunity to discuss the rules and whether he has made a mistake or there is a different view. This should be recorded and available for managers / players / fans etc to hear after the game, so they can understand the process that happened.
Whilst this may not alleviate every decision being wrong, it would certainly reduce the number. Provide an understanding on the thought process and conclusion for major decisions e.g. Penalties, Red Cards.
@mooneyman said:
Don't the managers mark the performance of the referees at each match. Perhaps the publication of a league table of these scores (and/or the EFL match assessors scores). That would identify the best refs and perhaps encourage those near the bottom of the table to up their game.
Think that would result in league referees becoming as scarce as long-distance lorry drivers.
well said @Commoner We need to support the refs we can get, not drive them out.
Some of the counsel-of-perfection stuff here assumes a limitless supply of talented, thick-skinned candidates in the pipeline, which is some way adrift of the reality.
By analogy, I got quite irritated that the professional commentator on a BCD Wycombe game last season referred to Josh Knight as (Derby player) Jason Knight all through the first half. Never did I once contemplate a campaign to demote him to non-league commentary. People make mistakes and should be judged on their long-term record - a long, successful career at the highest level for that commentator. They don't deserve to be hounded out on the basis of a single error, even where it costs my team.
Players make mistakes all the time and they just pass by and are expected.
Referees are equally human and make the job too accountable and there won't be any as already suggested.
@eric_plant said:
Sad day when Wycombe fans are more aggrieved by a referee's mistake than lining the pockets of Pete Winkelman and MK Dons
Staying away from these matches makes not a jot of difference to anything, unfortunately they are here now and aren’t going anywhere.
I respect people’s decision to not attend but people should also be respected if they wish to go.
Staying away does make a difference, however judging by numbers at Oxford and MK in recent weeks it seems that very few think like Eric and my group of friends.
Apart from Wimbledon supporters, our club has been impacted far more than any other club because of MK Dons. You only have to see the number of people who go to MK from Aylesbury to realise this.
They maybe be here and are not going anywhere but that does not change the past, the present or the future.
It's the boycotting of the home games v them that I simply don't get - there's no pocket-lining going on there and you're depriving yourself of supporting your own team. Genuinely interested in the logic behind that, even if it doesn't make any sense whatsoever to me.
@ReturnToSenda said:
It's the boycotting of the home games v them that I simply don't get - there's no pocket-lining going on there and you're depriving yourself of supporting your own team. Genuinely interested in the logic behind that, even if it doesn't make any sense whatsoever to me.
At some point you have to draw a line.
For me I will go to home games against them, others like Eric will not, I respect that.
My greatest difficulty came with the 92 club and ticking off the ground. Thankfully I had a friend who was able to provide Coke-Cola sponsorship tickets for free, sat with Wycombe fans. I of course did not spend a bean in the ground.
Until the day I die I will never set foot in the ground again or involve myself in predictions when we play them. I will however support the Chairboys at home when we play them.
@our_frank said:
well said @Commoner We need to support the refs we can get, not drive them out.
Some of the counsel-of-perfection stuff here assumes a limitless supply of talented, thick-skinned candidates in the pipeline, which is some way adrift of the reality.
By analogy, I got quite irritated that the professional commentator on a BCD Wycombe game last season referred to Josh Knight as (Derby player) Jason Knight all through the first half. Never did I once contemplate a campaign to demote him to non-league commentary. People make mistakes and should be judged on their long-term record - a long, successful career at the highest level for that commentator. They don't deserve to be hounded out on the basis of a single error, even where it costs my team.
We literally allow everyone to make mistakes in football except the referee and his team. It's been conditioned, some would say brainwashed, into us by TV pundits, analysts and the media. It is quite simply bullying and in any other industry the bullies would be dealt with. Football is a law unto itself.
It is so endemic in the game now that I just don't see how we get to a more respectful place.
@eric_plant said:
Sad day when Wycombe fans are more aggrieved by a referee's mistake than lining the pockets of Pete Winkelman and MK Dons
Staying away from these matches makes not a jot of difference to anything, unfortunately they are here now and aren’t going anywhere.
I respect people’s decision to not attend but people should also be respected if they wish to go.
Spot on with this.
Make your decision, stay or go, but don't keep harping on now.
If you want to make a stand at "cheating", as MK "cheated" a league place, does the same stand against owners who cheat the system with their money shenanigans?
@eric_plant said:
How would that improve the standard of refereeing, out of interest?
In a word, accountability.
In the eyes of the average football fan, and I class myself as very average, there is seemingly zero, or very little accountability when they make bad calls.
It doesn’t really matter to them. It could cost a team millions if they are relegated by one point if incorrect goals are awarded/disallowed or players are sent off that shouldn’t be.
I’m not clear what you are suggesting @TheDancingYak.
Scott Oldham made a refereeing error on Saturday that made it harder for our club to recover from a (likely) deficit.
I presume you accept that he was trying to the best of his ability to get the big decisions right.
What are you suggesting should happen now?
It seems bizarre to me to claim that referees would stop making mistakes if they were punished more severely or even get sacked for making them.
It always amazes me how much they get right, to be honest.
I couldn't tell you the number of times I've raged up at a referee or linesman at a game only to subsequently discover later that they got the decision spot on.
Comments
I think it's a positive move from the Premier League to bring Jarred Gillett in (well, he was in the EFL first, but he's only the second overseas ref in PL history). Maybe that's a route we'll explore more going forward.
Neal Maupay has just managed to cause 'security issues' in both sets of fans. Might have to ban celebrating goals altogether.
I would answer you with two points-first our commentary positions are usually a long way from the pitch so we are in a much worse position than referees to make a call and, more importantly, whatever a commentator says is not going to affect the outcome of the game.
Sad day when Wycombe fans are more aggrieved by a referee's mistake than lining the pockets of Pete Winkelman and MK Dons
Of course not Alan.
But you and the refs are both human
You and the refs are both trying not to make mistakes
Sometimes sadly you both get it wrong.
It’s what humans do.
Perhaps the ref in this case will wake up having sleepless nights about his decision…..
Only a matter of time surely before technology develops to correct commentator error - VACuous perhaps?
Not perhaps when combined with 23 shots against 5 which shows great defensive resilience on the part of the side conceding 23, especially after “losing” a key defender and makes a mockery of my prediction that Shrewsbury will score two against us this evening. Wish I’d delayed that prediction in the light of yesterday’s rescindment but who knows.......
Professionalising the referees is one step but not the only one to take. There needs to be clarity, visibility and transparency in a process on referees “learning” (or being punished) for mistakes.
It needs to be done in a fashion and so it doesn’t become a witch hunt, or worse, a reason for the referees to clam up and become even more of a closed door than it already is.
It should start with mistakes that have a clear impact on a result of a game - incorrect penalty decisions, red cards - to start with and expand/retract scope as and when experience builds.
There is already a clear, visible and transparent process of players get things wrong on the pitch (booking/sending off/bans dependant on what they did) but nothing if a referee makes a mistake that results in a goal/sending off that disadvantages a team.
I have no faith in the system for correcting and learning from honest mistakes,
How would that improve the standard of refereeing, out of interest?
Just pretend neither the match nor this thread, nor posters pathetically complaining about the ref ever existed.
Staying away from these matches makes not a jot of difference to anything, unfortunately they are here now and aren’t going anywhere.
I respect people’s decision to not attend but people should also be respected if they wish to go.
Don't the managers mark the performance of the referees at each match. Perhaps the publication of a league table of these scores (and/or the EFL match assessors scores). That would identify the best refs and perhaps encourage those near the bottom of the table to up their game.
Herein lies the problem, in my mind, with the culture that social media, skysports have brought to the modern day.
No longer can accidents happen, there has to be fault and where there is fault someone has to be punished.
Part of any sport is dealing with the mistakes that humans make, whether they are players, managers or referees.
This is a complete overreaction to a split second decision that with hindsight was wrong.
TV has brought the benefit of being able to slow everything down, to analyse the minutiae and then say the ref was right or wrong. He gets one chance at full speed to make a decision.
This constant over analysis and criticism of referees has to stop. I'd genuinely like to see all professional players, managers go and referee kids matches locally in the community, just to realise how difficult it is. I'd like to see more support for referees and understanding shown. It is a thankless task.
How can we improve this? There must be a consultation and an insistence on consultation with the other three officials at the game for major decisions by the powers that be. Perhaps, along these lines.
4 officials are all microphoned up.
In this type of situation, he wants to award a penalty and potentially a red card.
He asks the question to his other officials:
Is there any reason why I cannot award the penalty?
Answer yes or no.
Did he make a genuine attempt to play the ball?
Answer yes or no.
Is there any reason why I should give a red card, instead of a yellow card?
Answer yes or no.
At this point the other officials may have an opportunity to remind him of the double jeopardy rule now in force.
The other officials then have an opportunity to discuss the rules and whether he has made a mistake or there is a different view. This should be recorded and available for managers / players / fans etc to hear after the game, so they can understand the process that happened.
Whilst this may not alleviate every decision being wrong, it would certainly reduce the number. Provide an understanding on the thought process and conclusion for major decisions e.g. Penalties, Red Cards.
Think that would result in league referees becoming as scarce as long-distance lorry drivers.
This is worth a read: https://theathletic.co.uk/2268098/2020/12/27/merit-table-referees-premier/
Sad day when one Wycombe fan is more interested endlessly berating other Wycombe fans than literally anything else.
well said @Commoner We need to support the refs we can get, not drive them out.
Some of the counsel-of-perfection stuff here assumes a limitless supply of talented, thick-skinned candidates in the pipeline, which is some way adrift of the reality.
By analogy, I got quite irritated that the professional commentator on a BCD Wycombe game last season referred to Josh Knight as (Derby player) Jason Knight all through the first half. Never did I once contemplate a campaign to demote him to non-league commentary. People make mistakes and should be judged on their long-term record - a long, successful career at the highest level for that commentator. They don't deserve to be hounded out on the basis of a single error, even where it costs my team.
Players make mistakes all the time and they just pass by and are expected.
Referees are equally human and make the job too accountable and there won't be any as already suggested.
Staying away does make a difference, however judging by numbers at Oxford and MK in recent weeks it seems that very few think like Eric and my group of friends.
Apart from Wimbledon supporters, our club has been impacted far more than any other club because of MK Dons. You only have to see the number of people who go to MK from Aylesbury to realise this.
They maybe be here and are not going anywhere but that does not change the past, the present or the future.
Roll on Shrewsbury tonight
It's the boycotting of the home games v them that I simply don't get - there's no pocket-lining going on there and you're depriving yourself of supporting your own team. Genuinely interested in the logic behind that, even if it doesn't make any sense whatsoever to me.
At some point you have to draw a line.
For me I will go to home games against them, others like Eric will not, I respect that.
My greatest difficulty came with the 92 club and ticking off the ground. Thankfully I had a friend who was able to provide Coke-Cola sponsorship tickets for free, sat with Wycombe fans. I of course did not spend a bean in the ground.
Until the day I die I will never set foot in the ground again or involve myself in predictions when we play them. I will however support the Chairboys at home when we play them.
We literally allow everyone to make mistakes in football except the referee and his team. It's been conditioned, some would say brainwashed, into us by TV pundits, analysts and the media. It is quite simply bullying and in any other industry the bullies would be dealt with. Football is a law unto itself.
It is so endemic in the game now that I just don't see how we get to a more respectful place.
I didn't attend/line the pockets of Winkleman nor MK Dons, I'm still really miffed at the ref though! :-)
Totally. Spending most of last season sneering at any of us who had the audacity to say we were hard done by at any decisions.
Spot on with this.
Make your decision, stay or go, but don't keep harping on now.
If you want to make a stand at "cheating", as MK "cheated" a league place, does the same stand against owners who cheat the system with their money shenanigans?
Who's "harping on"?
In a word, accountability.
In the eyes of the average football fan, and I class myself as very average, there is seemingly zero, or very little accountability when they make bad calls.
It doesn’t really matter to them. It could cost a team millions if they are relegated by one point if incorrect goals are awarded/disallowed or players are sent off that shouldn’t be.
They are assessed every game they officiate
I’m not clear what you are suggesting @TheDancingYak.
Scott Oldham made a refereeing error on Saturday that made it harder for our club to recover from a (likely) deficit.
I presume you accept that he was trying to the best of his ability to get the big decisions right.
What are you suggesting should happen now?
It seems bizarre to me to claim that referees would stop making mistakes if they were punished more severely or even get sacked for making them.
It always amazes me how much they get right, to be honest.
I couldn't tell you the number of times I've raged up at a referee or linesman at a game only to subsequently discover later that they got the decision spot on.
I tend to agree Eric on both counts.