He made two decisions...one of which was clearly wrong even at the time.
If he was unsighted he should surely have made neither if he had the best intent. Or given the pen and a yellow card to be on the safe side. As someone who was watching it live...the red card was the shock for me not the pen.
When you mention a "safe side", in the referee's mind, he prob was doing just that. A red card can be overturned but a yellow card can't be upgraded to a red in retrospect. I know that this doesn't help our cause but a referee's mind works very different to a fan's
@eric_plant said:
I couldn't tell you the number of times I've raged up at a referee or linesman at a game only to subsequently discover later that they got the decision spot on.
Surely it's zero times because you've never ever missed an opportunity to belittle others for being upset at a refereeing decision. Unless of course, this is your way of owning up to being a quite spectacular hypocrite.
Championship refs are better than League One - although still not good enough. But it's just bizarre that the most important person in a professional sport is not a professional themselves. It's not right.
Sorry @ReturnToSenda but most Championship officials (Ref's & Lino's) are now on a professional contract. However all of them are on yearly contracts and not established at that standard. If they want to keep their contract, they have to tow the narrow line of the Laws of the Game or they get removed / demoted. They all want to get to get to Premier League where they can start showing their personality like Mike Dean even if you hate him, he is prob the most honest official out there
Championship refs are better than League One - although still not good enough. But it's just bizarre that the most important person in a professional sport is not a professional themselves. It's not right.
Sorry @ReturnToSenda but most Championship officials (Ref's & Lino's) are now on a professional contract. However all of them are on yearly contracts and not established at that standard. If they want to keep their contract, they have to tow the narrow line of the Laws of the Game or they get removed / demoted. They all want to get to get to Premier League where they can start showing their personality like Mike Dean even if you hate him, he is prob the most honest official out there
I know - I was referring to League One and Two officials still being part-time.
@eric_plant said:
I couldn't tell you the number of times I've raged up at a referee or linesman at a game only to subsequently discover later that they got the decision spot on.
Surely it's zero times because you've never ever missed an opportunity to belittle others for being upset at a refereeing decision. Unless of course, this is your way of owning up to being a quite spectacular hypocrite.
Would have been an odd thing for me to write if it was zero wouldn't it?
Is it really up for debate that the level of refereeing is terrible?
Currently the worst professional referees we have in this country get to officiate in the 5th/6th most attended football League in the world
We then have part time refs overseeing professional matches which are worth millions in leagues 1/2 and the conference.
If refereeing was professionalised with essentially promotion relegation, the best refs would work their way to the top, and the worst refs would fall out the league.
I can accept mistakes, I can't accept rank incompetence
I know this is going to sound silly but its all down to lack of funding / training & coaching for officials between grass-roots and Championship level. The PGMOL don't have the resources to look after 2 or 3 league's worth of officials, the EFL don't put much money into officials. Once officials get to Level 4 (those officials that referee teams like Risborough Rangers etc), they hold those officials over a barrel that they either do what they say / want or they get dropped and replaced and cast out. Its very cut throat and that then comes across in the way that the game is officiated.
These officials have to manage their games, travel & admin etc while also deal with the hassle of everyday work etc. It is something that clubs in the lower leagues need to address directly with the FA and/or PGMOL
@Username said:
Is it really up for debate that the level of refereeing is terrible?
Currently the worst professional referees we have in this country get to officiate in the 5th/6th most attended football League in the world
We then have part time refs overseeing professional matches which are worth millions in leagues 1/2 and the conference.
If refereeing was professionalised with essentially promotion relegation, the best refs would work their way to the top, and the worst refs would fall out the league.
I can accept mistakes, I can't accept rank incompetence
One team's rub of the green is their opponent's rank incompetence.
@eric_plant said:
It seems bizarre to me to claim that referees would stop making mistakes if they were punished more severely or even get sacked for making them.
It always amazes me how much they get right, to be honest.
I couldn't tell you the number of times I've raged up at a referee or linesman at a game only to subsequently discover later that they got the decision spot on.
I said they should learn from the mistakes first, which I noticed you ignored and just when with the punishment angle. But having said that, punishment should an option but only in extreme circumstances. You know, like for any other professional in a professional position....
Punishment is not the only way you get accountability. You could get accountability from making a wholly professional position. They have 1 job and then spend 4.5 days of the week doing activities to hone your profession and a half day officiating a game. (or 1 game day and 4 days etc). That's the first step towards accountability.
You mentioned referee assessments after every game.
That’s great but that’s the very non-visible behind closed doors thing that needs to opened up. Questions are raised to the FA from managers are seemingly hit with silence.
Managers are punished for saying anything about a decision.
Players have only just started being allowed to talk to the referees. (Although that can open a Pandora’s box of trying to gain influence on the pitch in real time)
There is an air of "you can't question a referees decision, its a hard job, they make decisions in an instant".
I say thats BS. Of course you can and should question every wrong decision. But it doesn't need to be with the threat of the sack.
There are harder jobs with actual lives on the line and peoples snap decisions are retrospectively questioned all day everyday as a matter of course. Its a mind set that I know started in the airline industry and more and more is being used within the NHS after a commercial pilots Captains wife died after a sinus op. (He wanted an investigation into why decisions were made that resulted in her death NOT for punishment but for learning so the same mistakes aren't made again)
Granted the above life and death thing is a little bit of an extreme example. But its a fact mistakes are made. Its what can be done retrospectively to help referees limit them or not make the same ones again that I am sure can be done with accountability across the refereeing system
Let’s start simple and Publish every assessment on the FA page after every game. Make the process transparent.
All games. Good and bad.
Have input from the referees about all big decisions they made and why. Again, both correct and incorrect decisions.
What could they do again in the next time a similar query? Nothing maybe the only answer in some circumstances. Discuss with assistant ref/4th official might be appropriate. Better positioning in the future. All learnings. All building the accountability.
Take human factors into the equation. Has the FA asked that ref to officiate too many games? - is tiredness, fatigue etc a factor?
Are Assistant Referees empowered to challenge a referees decision when he thinks its wrong? Is its the referees decision and his alone and he can't be challenged? Is there an atmosphere of fear if "Ref A" is Challenged because he'll kick off in the dressing room after the game?
A bit like in the airline industry- it moves beyond who made the decision and pin the blame on that one person but more looks at why they made that decision and if anything can be done to help others in a similar position not make the same or similar error.
Are we over working the referees. Do we need more and they only do one game a week? Can they do 3 in 7 days and expect the 3rd game to be officiated as well as the 1st?
All things things can build accountability in a positive way. In an open and transparent process to improve refereeing.
Being happy that they get more right than wrong is accepting mediocracy. Mistakes will be always made -it’s a fact, but we can strive to limit them as much as possible. And if learnings are made to help referees as a whole of the back of a couple of bad mistakes that even better.
At the moment, there’s no learning from any bad decisions. They are made repeatedly.
That makes individual refs look bad or incompetent. When they maybe anything of the sort.
All of the above may even already be happening. Behind closed doors. Unseen by the average football fan. If it is that's good. They fact we don't know about it is terrible.
Or just go back to pre-codification anarchy ?♂️ Or the slightly later era when there was an umpire allocated to each team and they convened to make decisions.
For all the words on the subject of referees, it comes back to a couple of simple realities.
Human Beings make mistakes. They will always make mistakes. Referees are human beings.
If you want to reduce the number of match changing refereeing errors, you adopt VAR.
VAR has disadvantages too. If you see those disadvantages as too great, then you have to live with the reality of key refereeing errors - sometimes in favour of your team, sometimes against.
It's a no brainer. As was pointed out last week, imagine that moment at City being cut short by a VAR check. In one moment, a perfect illustration of why it is so bad.
@drcongo said: @ReturnToSenda Do you happen to know what they do differently in Germany? The standard of refereeing there seems a million miles ahead of here.
I don't - but don't Germany tend to do most things better than us? In football or otherwise.
@eric_plant said:
It's a no brainer. As was pointed out last week, imagine that moment at City being cut short by a VAR check. In one moment, a perfect illustration of why it is so bad.
I disagree as you know Eric. I respect your right to feel otherwise.
@drcongo said: @ReturnToSenda Do you happen to know what they do differently in Germany? The standard of refereeing there seems a million miles ahead of here.
I don't - but don't Germany tend to do most things better than us? In football or otherwise.
@DevC said:
For all the words on the subject of referees, it comes back to a couple of simple realities.
Human Beings make mistakes. They will always make mistakes. Referees are human beings.
If you want to reduce the number of match changing refereeing errors, you adopt VAR.
VAR has disadvantages too. If you see those disadvantages as too great, then you have to live with the reality of key refereeing errors - sometimes in favour of your team, sometimes against.
Its a choice.
VAR is an example of looking at a problem and putting the theory into practise without looking at the realities.
All VAR as done as added another layer of complexity and interpretation of the rules into the equation.
In an ideal world VAR as fantastic. This ain't an ideal world and and VAR is far from being fantastic.
Mistakes happen, and most people can accept it, but English football needs to do more
If I look at the funding and professionalisation of women's football in the last 10/15 years (quite rightly), the improvement in the overall performance (and much reduced rate of mistakes) is stratospheric, a similar thing needs to happen refereeing.
10/15 years ago I barely watched a women's football game even at a good level without an embarrassing basic mistake.... That's moved on miles now it's fully pro. I feel like every WWFC match I attend I expect at least 1 absolute howler from the ref, even if the general officiating standard is decent, which isn't usually the case - even if we've won comfortably.
And anyway, we don't want to get rid of all mistakes. I am sure there's a quote somewhere that said every goal ever scored has a mistake from someone in it.
No one wants to eliminate mistakes. We just don't want the same or obvious ones made over and over again.
I can live with an offside decision being not given when someone's big toe/armpit is offside. I can't live with it when they are 4 feet offside.
VAR is an example of looking at a problem and putting the theory into practise without looking at the realities.
All VAR as done as added another layer of complexity and interpretation of the rules into the equation.
In an ideal world VAR as fantastic. This ain't an ideal world and and VAR is far from being fantastic.
VAR has substantially reduced the number of serious refereeing errors. It cannot eliminate all and some decisions are inevitably judgemental. Personal choice to make whether or not the benefits of VAR outweigh the disadvantages. If you decline a way to substantially reduce refereeing errors though, then perhaps time to stop moaning about refereeing errors when they occur. You chose to have them.
If you decline a way to substantially reduce refereeing errors though, then perhaps time to stop moaning about refereeing errors when they occur.
VAR just moves the errors to someone else sat in a room. Haven't watched a premier league match in a couple of years, but last time I tried the entire of the half time "punditry" was spent discussing the dreadful decisions made by the VAR people. How that is an improvement is beyond me.
Culinary duties call.
I’m sure he knows his stuff but I petered out earlier in the middle of @TheDancingYak’s magnum opus. Dropped back in, briefly, but not feeling any more enlightened.
Comments
When you mention a "safe side", in the referee's mind, he prob was doing just that. A red card can be overturned but a yellow card can't be upgraded to a red in retrospect. I know that this doesn't help our cause but a referee's mind works very different to a fan's
Surely it's zero times because you've never ever missed an opportunity to belittle others for being upset at a refereeing decision. Unless of course, this is your way of owning up to being a quite spectacular hypocrite.
Sorry @ReturnToSenda but most Championship officials (Ref's & Lino's) are now on a professional contract. However all of them are on yearly contracts and not established at that standard. If they want to keep their contract, they have to tow the narrow line of the Laws of the Game or they get removed / demoted. They all want to get to get to Premier League where they can start showing their personality like Mike Dean even if you hate him, he is prob the most honest official out there
I know - I was referring to League One and Two officials still being part-time.
Would have been an odd thing for me to write if it was zero wouldn't it?
Option 2 it is then.
Is it really up for debate that the level of refereeing is terrible?
Currently the worst professional referees we have in this country get to officiate in the 5th/6th most attended football League in the world
We then have part time refs overseeing professional matches which are worth millions in leagues 1/2 and the conference.
If refereeing was professionalised with essentially promotion relegation, the best refs would work their way to the top, and the worst refs would fall out the league.
I can accept mistakes, I can't accept rank incompetence
I know this is going to sound silly but its all down to lack of funding / training & coaching for officials between grass-roots and Championship level. The PGMOL don't have the resources to look after 2 or 3 league's worth of officials, the EFL don't put much money into officials. Once officials get to Level 4 (those officials that referee teams like Risborough Rangers etc), they hold those officials over a barrel that they either do what they say / want or they get dropped and replaced and cast out. Its very cut throat and that then comes across in the way that the game is officiated.
These officials have to manage their games, travel & admin etc while also deal with the hassle of everyday work etc. It is something that clubs in the lower leagues need to address directly with the FA and/or PGMOL
Clearly the FA/Prem/EFL need to better fund officiating
One team's rub of the green is their opponent's rank incompetence.
I said they should learn from the mistakes first, which I noticed you ignored and just when with the punishment angle. But having said that, punishment should an option but only in extreme circumstances. You know, like for any other professional in a professional position....
Punishment is not the only way you get accountability. You could get accountability from making a wholly professional position. They have 1 job and then spend 4.5 days of the week doing activities to hone your profession and a half day officiating a game. (or 1 game day and 4 days etc). That's the first step towards accountability.
You mentioned referee assessments after every game.
That’s great but that’s the very non-visible behind closed doors thing that needs to opened up. Questions are raised to the FA from managers are seemingly hit with silence.
Managers are punished for saying anything about a decision.
Players have only just started being allowed to talk to the referees. (Although that can open a Pandora’s box of trying to gain influence on the pitch in real time)
There is an air of "you can't question a referees decision, its a hard job, they make decisions in an instant".
I say thats BS. Of course you can and should question every wrong decision. But it doesn't need to be with the threat of the sack.
There are harder jobs with actual lives on the line and peoples snap decisions are retrospectively questioned all day everyday as a matter of course. Its a mind set that I know started in the airline industry and more and more is being used within the NHS after a commercial pilots Captains wife died after a sinus op. (He wanted an investigation into why decisions were made that resulted in her death NOT for punishment but for learning so the same mistakes aren't made again)
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/health/airline-pilot-vowed-improve-nhs-1915281
Granted the above life and death thing is a little bit of an extreme example. But its a fact mistakes are made. Its what can be done retrospectively to help referees limit them or not make the same ones again that I am sure can be done with accountability across the refereeing system
Let’s start simple and Publish every assessment on the FA page after every game. Make the process transparent.
All games. Good and bad.
Have input from the referees about all big decisions they made and why. Again, both correct and incorrect decisions.
What could they do again in the next time a similar query? Nothing maybe the only answer in some circumstances. Discuss with assistant ref/4th official might be appropriate. Better positioning in the future. All learnings. All building the accountability.
Take human factors into the equation. Has the FA asked that ref to officiate too many games? - is tiredness, fatigue etc a factor?
Are Assistant Referees empowered to challenge a referees decision when he thinks its wrong? Is its the referees decision and his alone and he can't be challenged? Is there an atmosphere of fear if "Ref A" is Challenged because he'll kick off in the dressing room after the game?
A bit like in the airline industry- it moves beyond who made the decision and pin the blame on that one person but more looks at why they made that decision and if anything can be done to help others in a similar position not make the same or similar error.
Are we over working the referees. Do we need more and they only do one game a week? Can they do 3 in 7 days and expect the 3rd game to be officiated as well as the 1st?
All things things can build accountability in a positive way. In an open and transparent process to improve refereeing.
Being happy that they get more right than wrong is accepting mediocracy. Mistakes will be always made -it’s a fact, but we can strive to limit them as much as possible. And if learnings are made to help referees as a whole of the back of a couple of bad mistakes that even better.
At the moment, there’s no learning from any bad decisions. They are made repeatedly.
That makes individual refs look bad or incompetent. When they maybe anything of the sort.
All of the above may even already be happening. Behind closed doors. Unseen by the average football fan. If it is that's good. They fact we don't know about it is terrible.
Refs need to be given the opportunity to pursue the career full time, not dragged over hotter coals than they already are for getting stuff wrong.
Or just go back to pre-codification anarchy ?♂️ Or the slightly later era when there was an umpire allocated to each team and they convened to make decisions.
@ReturnToSenda Do you happen to know what they do differently in Germany? The standard of refereeing there seems a million miles ahead of here.
For all the words on the subject of referees, it comes back to a couple of simple realities.
Human Beings make mistakes. They will always make mistakes. Referees are human beings.
If you want to reduce the number of match changing refereeing errors, you adopt VAR.
VAR has disadvantages too. If you see those disadvantages as too great, then you have to live with the reality of key refereeing errors - sometimes in favour of your team, sometimes against.
Its a choice.
It's a no brainer. As was pointed out last week, imagine that moment at City being cut short by a VAR check. In one moment, a perfect illustration of why it is so bad.
I don't - but don't Germany tend to do most things better than us? In football or otherwise.
I disagree as you know Eric. I respect your right to feel otherwise.
Good point.
VAR is an example of looking at a problem and putting the theory into practise without looking at the realities.
All VAR as done as added another layer of complexity and interpretation of the rules into the equation.
In an ideal world VAR as fantastic. This ain't an ideal world and and VAR is far from being fantastic.
No one that attends games likes VAR.
Mistakes happen, and most people can accept it, but English football needs to do more
If I look at the funding and professionalisation of women's football in the last 10/15 years (quite rightly), the improvement in the overall performance (and much reduced rate of mistakes) is stratospheric, a similar thing needs to happen refereeing.
10/15 years ago I barely watched a women's football game even at a good level without an embarrassing basic mistake.... That's moved on miles now it's fully pro. I feel like every WWFC match I attend I expect at least 1 absolute howler from the ref, even if the general officiating standard is decent, which isn't usually the case - even if we've won comfortably.
And anyway, we don't want to get rid of all mistakes. I am sure there's a quote somewhere that said every goal ever scored has a mistake from someone in it.
No one wants to eliminate mistakes. We just don't want the same or obvious ones made over and over again.
I can live with an offside decision being not given when someone's big toe/armpit is offside. I can't live with it when they are 4 feet offside.
That's simply not true, @Username .
VAR has substantially reduced the number of serious refereeing errors. It cannot eliminate all and some decisions are inevitably judgemental. Personal choice to make whether or not the benefits of VAR outweigh the disadvantages. If you decline a way to substantially reduce refereeing errors though, then perhaps time to stop moaning about refereeing errors when they occur. You chose to have them.
Surely once @DevC and VAR begins it is time to close the thread.
Just looked on the MK forum and @eric_plant 's 'this fixture should not exist' was one of their favourite posts...
VAR just moves the errors to someone else sat in a room. Haven't watched a premier league match in a couple of years, but last time I tried the entire of the half time "punditry" was spent discussing the dreadful decisions made by the VAR people. How that is an improvement is beyond me.
Its the gasrooms version of Godwins law.
DevC law states as an online discussion grows longer (regardless of topic or scope), the probability of a comparison involving VAR approaches 1
Culinary duties call.
I’m sure he knows his stuff but I petered out earlier in the middle of @TheDancingYak’s magnum opus. Dropped back in, briefly, but not feeling any more enlightened.
It would be odd if VAR was not part of a discussion on serious refereeing mistakes.
Don't ref's make the VAR decisions? Seems like doubling up on incompetent idiots to me.
Chicken and egg situation for me. Do players cheat less if refs are better or do the cheating players stop any chance of a ref being any good?