The greatest coach of all time ?? Or just the bloke that's always had 100's of millions to spend on players and has only ever managed the top teams in the country he's worked ?
A chap who inherited the best players he's had at City, De Bruyne, Sterling, Kompany, Aguero and D Silva, and then spent the highest sums in the history of football.
After struggling by at Barcelona with Messi, Iniesta and Xavi, before moving to that minnow Bayern.
@Blue_since_1990 said:
I am struggling to name a current manager who is better than Pep @Malone. His record is amazing.
It's going to be with his resources and the clubs he's managed though, isn't it?
Klopp and Tuchel will definitely give him a run for his money.
Obviously the top managers will manage the top teams, but "best of all time" is total recency bias.
When you have Ferguson winning with a Scottish minnow, and his United record, some of the Italian masters, Clough with 2 small time outfits, Mourinho pre meltdown, and no doubt a few other names, some older boys than me might want to mention.
The best way to look at Pep is that no-one drives a Ferrari better, but he has never even been behind the wheel of a normal car. That's not a backhanded compliment - he would be my first choice to run an expensively assembled team. But the likes of Fergie and Klopp punched above their weight with St. Mirren, Aberdeen and Mainz.
No one has been as simultaneously successful and innovative - and over such a long period of time - as Pep. The 'chequebook manager' argument is so lazy and tiresome. He wouldn't be able to do what he's done with, say, Burnley - but Sean Dyche wouldn't have got anywhere near achieving what Pep has with City (although having those two swap jobs would be quite an interesting experiment).
Looking at current managers @Malone, you can’t actually say that Klopp or Tuchel have been starved of funds though. Pep is a very good tactician and although he has had amazing financial backing, it doesn’t always work out.
I think he deserves credit for what he has done during his Premier League years. I am no Man City fan but I will give credit where it is due.
I'm not denying he's a good coach, he obviously is, but as @Malone has pointed out, proclaiming him the best of all time is typical younger person bias who has never witnessed older football. Plus, I'm sorry but having as many millions as you want to spend does help, and it does make a massive difference. If he was manager of Norwich and not winning all time no one would go on about him the way they do.
Clearly you don't get to stay at the big clubs for long without a lot of talent. But best ever is totally impossible to prove due to the reasons @Shev mentions.
I can't stand Liverpool or Klopp, but for him to go head to head with City, win a title, narrowly miss out the other season, and win the Euro cup - what Pep was brought to City to do (they were already winning titles before he came), is an incredible bit of management.
@HolmerBlue said:
I'm not denying he's a good coach, he obviously is, but as @Malone has pointed out, proclaiming him the best of all time is typical younger person bias who has never witnessed older football. Plus, I'm sorry but having as many millions as you want to spend does help, and it does make a massive difference. If he was manager of Norwich and not winning all time no one would go on about him the way they do.
There is a very definite obsession with branding the current the best ever.
The media were doing it with Pep's side the other season. Only to decide Liverpool were in fact the best ever the season after
The Arsenal "invincibles" tag is the one that cracks me up. They didn't even win a double that season.
I am certainly not young and he is nowhere near as good as Ferguson, Shankly, Clough or Nicholson. My point is that even though he has immense financial backing, he is a good coach and tactician and it is hard to pick someone from the current breed who would be better.
He may well struggle at Norwich but boy would that be interesting if it was made possible.
@Blue_since_1990 said:
I am certainly not young and he is nowhere near as good as Ferguson, Shankly, Clough or Nicholson. My point is that even though he has immense financial backing, he is a good coach and tactician and it is hard to pick someone from the current breed who would be better.
He may well struggle at Norwich but boy would that be interesting if it was made possible.
I would love to witness his meltdown at trying to get a relative minnow playing his way
@Malone Ah, but no one's managed an unbeaten season in the 17 years since. There have been quite a few better sides since, but that still stands as a hell of an achievement.
@Blue_since_1990 said:
I am struggling to name a current manager who is better than Pep @Malone. His record is amazing.
It's going to be with his resources and the clubs he's managed though, isn't it?
Klopp and Tuchel will definitely give him a run for his money.
Obviously the top managers will manage the top teams, but "best of all time" is total recency bias.
When you have Ferguson winning with a Scottish minnow, and his United record, some of the Italian masters, Clough with 2 small time outfits, Mourinho pre meltdown, and no doubt a few other names, some older boys than me might want to mention.
If that's your argument...
Mourinho: had money
Ferguson: had money (later on)
Klopp: has money
Tuchel: has money
Clough: when was the last time that happened? Ranieri is the closest that gets to it.
All of the above are great managers in their own right, but you cannot say that there are many/if any better managers than Pep right now. You ask any professional, which one manager they would play for if they could...I guarantee you at least 75% would say Pep or Mourinho. Why? Because they are the best coaches without doubt.
@Blue_since_1990 said:
I am struggling to name a current manager who is better than Pep @Malone. His record is amazing.
It's going to be with his resources and the clubs he's managed though, isn't it?
Klopp and Tuchel will definitely give him a run for his money.
Obviously the top managers will manage the top teams, but "best of all time" is total recency bias.
When you have Ferguson winning with a Scottish minnow, and his United record, some of the Italian masters, Clough with 2 small time outfits, Mourinho pre meltdown, and no doubt a few other names, some older boys than me might want to mention.
If that's your argument...
Mourinho: had money
Ferguson: had money (later on)
Klopp: has money
Tuchel: has money
Clough: when was the last time that happened? Ranieri is the closest that gets to it.
All of the above are great managers in their own right, but you cannot say that there are many/if any better managers than Pep right now. You ask any professional, which one manager they would play for if they could...I guarantee you at least 75% would say Pep or Mourinho. Why? Because they are the best coaches without doubt.
The argument wasn't about whether Pep is the best today, it's about whether he's the best of all time.
@Blue_since_1990 said:
I am struggling to name a current manager who is better than Pep @Malone. His record is amazing.
It's going to be with his resources and the clubs he's managed though, isn't it?
Klopp and Tuchel will definitely give him a run for his money.
Obviously the top managers will manage the top teams, but "best of all time" is total recency bias.
When you have Ferguson winning with a Scottish minnow, and his United record, some of the Italian masters, Clough with 2 small time outfits, Mourinho pre meltdown, and no doubt a few other names, some older boys than me might want to mention.
If that's your argument...
Mourinho: had money
Ferguson: had money (later on)
Klopp: has money
Tuchel: has money
Clough: when was the last time that happened? Ranieri is the closest that gets to it.
All of the above are great managers in their own right, but you cannot say that there are many/if any better managers than Pep right now. You ask any professional, which one manager they would play for if they could...I guarantee you at least 75% would say Pep or Mourinho. Why? Because they are the best coaches without doubt.
The argument wasn't about whether Pep is the best today, it's about whether he's the best of all time.
Yep I am with you on that one @mooneyman. Clough and Shankly took unfashionable sides and took them to the top. The Forest story will never be repeated.
@Chris said:
We should definitely get promoted with that team, but I think there might be a few complaints.
It's only a topic of discussion. But of course you're not allowed to make such unreasonable suggestions on this message board. Leaves people "confused".
Ahh...the first 'you're not allowed to...on this forum' of the new season.
Spain were 86-14 v Sweden in the summer, but the Swedes failed to nick the all-important winner which would surely have come close to being an international record
@Chris said:
We should definitely get promoted with that team, but I think there might be a few complaints.
It's only a topic of discussion. But of course you're not allowed to make such unreasonable suggestions on this message board. Leaves people "confused".
Ahh...the first 'you're not allowed to...on this forum' of the new season.
Ahh...the first troll of this season. Oh maybe not actually.
On a different note, I do find the need to identify a GOAT fascinating, as usually it is an impossible task. Some sports come close to unanimity owing to the numbers being so absurdly in the outlier realm (Tom Brady in American football, Don Bradman in cricket, Wayne Gretsky in ice hockey, Phil Taylor in darts) but for the most part, it is impossible to prove a case to the satisfaction of all. This is of course part of what makes it an interesting discussion, but my theory is that absent the presence of perfection, we try and find the nearest superlative (best ever) so that we can satisfy a craving to see what perfection looks like. Something like management is even more difficult to prove a case for, as there are even more moving pieces, and more elements of success which may or may not be credited to the manager himself as opposed to a single player, who can be measured in goals, assists and other skills.
Comments
The greatest coach of all time ?? Or just the bloke that's always had 100's of millions to spend on players and has only ever managed the top teams in the country he's worked ?
A chap who inherited the best players he's had at City, De Bruyne, Sterling, Kompany, Aguero and D Silva, and then spent the highest sums in the history of football.
After struggling by at Barcelona with Messi, Iniesta and Xavi, before moving to that minnow Bayern.
But yes, apart from all that.
?
Is that why Kaikai came to us?
I am struggling to name a current manager who is better than Pep @Malone. His record is amazing.
It's going to be with his resources and the clubs he's managed though, isn't it?
Klopp and Tuchel will definitely give him a run for his money.
Obviously the top managers will manage the top teams, but "best of all time" is total recency bias.
When you have Ferguson winning with a Scottish minnow, and his United record, some of the Italian masters, Clough with 2 small time outfits, Mourinho pre meltdown, and no doubt a few other names, some older boys than me might want to mention.
The best way to look at Pep is that no-one drives a Ferrari better, but he has never even been behind the wheel of a normal car. That's not a backhanded compliment - he would be my first choice to run an expensively assembled team. But the likes of Fergie and Klopp punched above their weight with St. Mirren, Aberdeen and Mainz.
No one has been as simultaneously successful and innovative - and over such a long period of time - as Pep. The 'chequebook manager' argument is so lazy and tiresome. He wouldn't be able to do what he's done with, say, Burnley - but Sean Dyche wouldn't have got anywhere near achieving what Pep has with City (although having those two swap jobs would be quite an interesting experiment).
Looking at current managers @Malone, you can’t actually say that Klopp or Tuchel have been starved of funds though. Pep is a very good tactician and although he has had amazing financial backing, it doesn’t always work out.
I think he deserves credit for what he has done during his Premier League years. I am no Man City fan but I will give credit where it is due.
I'm not denying he's a good coach, he obviously is, but as @Malone has pointed out, proclaiming him the best of all time is typical younger person bias who has never witnessed older football. Plus, I'm sorry but having as many millions as you want to spend does help, and it does make a massive difference. If he was manager of Norwich and not winning all time no one would go on about him the way they do.
Clearly you don't get to stay at the big clubs for long without a lot of talent. But best ever is totally impossible to prove due to the reasons @Shev mentions.
I can't stand Liverpool or Klopp, but for him to go head to head with City, win a title, narrowly miss out the other season, and win the Euro cup - what Pep was brought to City to do (they were already winning titles before he came), is an incredible bit of management.
Kids these days...
There is a very definite obsession with branding the current the best ever.
The media were doing it with Pep's side the other season. Only to decide Liverpool were in fact the best ever the season after
The Arsenal "invincibles" tag is the one that cracks me up. They didn't even win a double that season.
I am certainly not young and he is nowhere near as good as Ferguson, Shankly, Clough or Nicholson. My point is that even though he has immense financial backing, he is a good coach and tactician and it is hard to pick someone from the current breed who would be better.
He may well struggle at Norwich but boy would that be interesting if it was made possible.
I would love to witness his meltdown at trying to get a relative minnow playing his way
@Malone Ah, but no one's managed an unbeaten season in the 17 years since. There have been quite a few better sides since, but that still stands as a hell of an achievement.
In the league. They lost in 3 different cups.
If that's your argument...
Mourinho: had money
Ferguson: had money (later on)
Klopp: has money
Tuchel: has money
Clough: when was the last time that happened? Ranieri is the closest that gets to it.
All of the above are great managers in their own right, but you cannot say that there are many/if any better managers than Pep right now. You ask any professional, which one manager they would play for if they could...I guarantee you at least 75% would say Pep or Mourinho. Why? Because they are the best coaches without doubt.
The argument wasn't about whether Pep is the best today, it's about whether he's the best of all time.
Apologies. Then that goes to Alex Ferguson.
"Sir" please @thecatwwfc. However I would place Bill Shankly and Brian Clough above Sir Alec
Yep I am with you on that one @mooneyman. Clough and Shankly took unfashionable sides and took them to the top. The Forest story will never be repeated.
Michels, Sacchi and Cruyff (surely the undisputed greatest if you combine playing and coaching career) all right up there.
On possession stats...largely irrelevant when assessing the probability of success. Indicator of style of play
The ultimate example being when Celtic beat Barcelona in 2012
Ahh...the first 'you're not allowed to...on this forum' of the new season.
Infinite factors but xG is the daddy
Spain were 86-14 v Sweden in the summer, but the Swedes failed to nick the all-important winner which would surely have come close to being an international record
Ahh...the first troll of this season. Oh maybe not actually.
On a different note, I do find the need to identify a GOAT fascinating, as usually it is an impossible task. Some sports come close to unanimity owing to the numbers being so absurdly in the outlier realm (Tom Brady in American football, Don Bradman in cricket, Wayne Gretsky in ice hockey, Phil Taylor in darts) but for the most part, it is impossible to prove a case to the satisfaction of all. This is of course part of what makes it an interesting discussion, but my theory is that absent the presence of perfection, we try and find the nearest superlative (best ever) so that we can satisfy a craving to see what perfection looks like. Something like management is even more difficult to prove a case for, as there are even more moving pieces, and more elements of success which may or may not be credited to the manager himself as opposed to a single player, who can be measured in goals, assists and other skills.