I believe that football fans have to stop claiming to be innocent victims, and start accepting a level of responsibility. Some are driven by unrealistic and unfeasible expectations or what their club is capable of achieving.
You don't have to read far through a Derby County forum to find people who can't wait for the next fat cat to turn up and the spending spree to restart. Rooney has done nothing to change this mindset by suggesting that he has free agents lined up to sign as soon as the transfer embargo is lifted, and saying that the club need to sign 40 players.
What happened to getting spending under control, accepting a lower wage bill, and running the operation on a par with it's means? Then you can consider rebuilding.
Stricter spending rules, yes. More financial transparency, yes. But you still will not stop stupid people acting stupidly. Ultimately, they have to either learn their lessons, or pay the price.
While I have a level of admiration for the current 'Save Our Club' campaign, I believe it has started years too late, and rather than celebrate the MM spending spree, they should have been protesting.
Yes, High Wycombe could have lost the Wanderers, but there wasn't that much support for the Hayes plan, and some people strongly objected.
This club survived (barely) by struggling along cutting costs and punching far and above our weight on the pitch and the fans struggled and worried along with the club. I don't want them out of business but struggling down in League One is the least we should expect. The EFL giving them time to find another dodgy boss to stay in the Championship does them no credit in my.opinion.
I too am deeply ambivalent about Derby’s position. On the one hand as a fan of the game and as someone who understands the importance of a club to its community, the prospect of any club going bust appalls me. On the other hand, as a fan of level playing fields, of owning your own sh*t and of treating others as you would have them treat you, I will have a profound sense of injustice should Derby come through this season with nothing but memories of a stressful year in their debit column.
This is a club who have gambled it all on promotion to the Premier League and lost, have then gamed the system to the max in order to avoid detection and then kick the inevitable sanctions as far down the road as possible, have then gambled once again in not divesting assets in January in order once again to prioritise their on field prospects over meeting their obligations to anyone else and to thereby render any sanctions that have been imposed ultimately meaningless.
So is it enough for the fans to declare that they have done nothing wrong, that they are not to blame? To flip the passive position on its head, Have they done anything right in all this? Can they point to anyone making any enquiries as MM moved Pride Park out of the club’s ownership? Was there a movement last summer to balance the books in order to at least stave off liquidation? Were there calls to sell players this January or was there relief that the very real prospect of playing their way out of relegation would not be dealt a blow?
It has been said many times before, but the thing I find myself coming back to is our recent past. We had a lot of fans who backed Beeks to the hilt and then supported Hayes’ plans to bring total football/rugby to the town, I recall heated debate on the Gasroom and I recall that any number of arguments questioning the sound footing of these plans fell on deaf ears. Look at Coventry, look at Northampton, look at Colchester - they don’t own their own stadiums and they are doing alright. We will never progress unless we have some moneyman come in and invest a pile, and Moneyman will only do that if he gets all of the toys. Those were the arguments. We resisted because we were a small club who proportionately had a lot of fans who were vested in the ownership of the club. We still lost the training ground, we still lost the youth team, we still lost the senior playing staff but we were prepared to save the club at all costs.
So I may indeed feel it sad if Derby passes, but I will also feel bemused that it all came to pass without a fight.
I’d be interested to know what action, if any, Derby fans took against their ownership. When Hayes was running up the debt there was a vocal section of Wycombe fans worried about what he was doing, and of course the black and white campaign that opposed the move to Booker.
I think the easiest way to explain the feeling towards Derby is that nobody really believes that they will go bust or cease to exist, but why should they be allowed to cheat so compressively and completely just so their fans don't have to experience lower divisions or threadbare squads, at the expense of clubs in lower leagues with threadbare squads.
'One of the main obstacles to the club's sale so far has been the compensation claims from Middlesbrough and Wycombe Wanderers which both relate to the club's FFP breaches.'
And yet article then goes on to say despite no agreement it will have no effect on the sale. What a load of old pony. I am amazed that £20 odd million owed to the taxman and someone else owning the stadium is not mentioned as a stumbling block but some minuscule pay-off to us is!
Another bidder pulls out. They 'only' offered £30m - and they wanted the stadium in that too...!
They'll liquidate eventually. Christ they're stringing their fans along though.
Although this stupidity shouldn't be allowed to drag on it is fairly positive for them, they seem to have several bidders that are prepared to take over their situation despite Morris hanging on for his money.
Another bidder pulls out. They 'only' offered £30m - and they wanted the stadium in that too...!
They'll liquidate eventually. Christ they're stringing their fans along though.
Although this stupidity shouldn't be allowed to drag on it is fairly positive for them, they seem to have several bidders that are prepared to take over their situation despite Morris hanging on for his money.
Not sure I evaluate it similarly - I guess we'll see 'soon'
Another bidder pulls out. They 'only' offered £30m - and they wanted the stadium in that too...!
They'll liquidate eventually. Christ they're stringing their fans along though.
Although this stupidity shouldn't be allowed to drag on it is fairly positive for them, they seem to have several bidders that are prepared to take over their situation despite Morris hanging on for his money.
Not sure I evaluate it similarly - I guess we'll see 'soon'
Could easily go the other way if the ask is just ridiculous.
Hard to believe anyone is willing to pay more than a quid for a club riddled with debt, that doesn't own its ground, and its only assets are on short contracts. All you're buying is the right to pay out a shitload of money.
@drcongo said:
Hard to believe anyone is willing to pay more than a quid for a club riddled with debt, that doesn't own its ground, and its only assets are on short contracts. All you're buying is the right to pay out a shitload of money.
You’re paying for a bucket of shit and you won’t own the bucket
There's a real conundrum for any prospective buyer. They'll want to know which league Derby are in next year, or at least have it as a condition of purchase.
However, since it seems unlikely they'll pay all football creditors and HMRC, there's quite a possibility of a further 15(?) point deduction when they exit Administration.
If the sale gets delayed too long, that point deduction could mean they start life in league 1 on -15 points next season.
I know wishing a club would go under is a cardinal sin (apart from certain cases like MK Dons, clubs funded by human rights abusers etc.), but I have to congratulate everyone involved with Derby County for managing to seriously test my resolve in this area!
Here’s a question I don’t think I’ve seen asked - apologies if I’ve missed. I haven’t seen that the administrator has been taking serious steps to reduce Derby’s outgoings. Are they continuing to breach FFP now?
@OakwoodExile said:
Here’s a question I don’t think I’ve seen asked - apologies if I’ve missed. I haven’t seen that the administrator has been taking serious steps to reduce Derby’s outgoings. Are they continuing to breach FFP now?
In terms of day to day operating the answer is most likely yes, but the application of FFP is bases on submitted accounts, so until it shows up on paper, effectively no.
In terms of day to day operating the answer is most likely yes, but the application of FFP is bases on submitted accounts, so until it shows up on paper, effectively no.
They haven’t been able to sign anyone, so the few sales will have reduced continuous outgoings a bit and nothing spent on transfer fees and some income from those few sales - I’d think they could be within a £13m loss for this season so “FPP Compliant” but that depends on losses for the preceding 2 seasons as FPP is over a rolling 3 years (I think). I don’t know if being penalised for one breach “resets” the period for subsequent rolling periods
@drcongo said:
Hard to believe anyone is willing to pay more than a quid for a club riddled with debt, that doesn't own its ground, and its only assets are on short contracts. All you're buying is the right to pay out a shitload of money.
One answer is that they are buying the brand loyalty of the consumers.
I guess they are hoping to be in the Championship at the end of the season, Administrators hand in glove with the club to do the same as they did last season and drag it out.
My understanding is that DCFC have been operating with a wage bill approximately 1.5 times their income, add to that other operating costs and it indicates a dire business model that is utterly unsustainable. With FFP based on accounts over a rolling three year
period, I doubt the recent transfer embargo and offloading of a few players has had a major effect on the figures.
The £39m loss over three years figure may be manageable as a one off by some clubs, but as a long term operating model it's a disaster waiting to happen for anybody.
This rolling model is designed to average out short term effects and give a club greater flexibility in financial planning, so that fire sales become unnecessary for example. Clearly the model works because Derby have not had to resort to fire sales. QED.
@Ed_ said:
This rolling model is designed to average out short term effects and give a club greater flexibility in financial planning, so that fire sales become unnecessary for example. Clearly the model works because Derby have not had to resort to fire sales. QED.
I'd suggest they chose not to resort to fire sales in order to retain the look of being a Championship outfit and attract a better class of idiot investor.
They have been allowed to do this by the League delaying it's firm demand for proof of funds and a preferred bidder with means. Wether that "works" long term is far from concluded. Ultimately the push to get a move on probably wont come from the league, it will be a winding up order.
At some point, soon, HMRC will lose patience & issue a formal winding up petition at which point the shit hits the proverbial fan for DCFC; as others have said they are one of many basket cases in the financial circus that passes for The Championship and their business model is totally unsustainable (see also Reading, Bournemouth, Birmingham in particular but also Everton in the PL).
As I understand administration after 6 months of being appointed the administrators have to give quite a detailed update to creditors - this is about 22nd March.
This should include progress to date along with information on fees/expenses incurred.
@carrickblue said:
As I understand administration after 6 months of being appointed the administrators have to give quite a detailed update to creditors - this is about 22nd March.
This should include progress to date along with information on fees/expenses incurred.
Might be some interesting reading on that day.
@carrickblue - do you know what happens if they say they can't and ask for an extension?
If it was a serious question I have no idea of the implications of being late.
They don’t, as far as I know, have to provide this information other than to creditors so perhaps try to release under an nda - will be interesting to see what gets made public
Comments
I believe that football fans have to stop claiming to be innocent victims, and start accepting a level of responsibility. Some are driven by unrealistic and unfeasible expectations or what their club is capable of achieving.
You don't have to read far through a Derby County forum to find people who can't wait for the next fat cat to turn up and the spending spree to restart. Rooney has done nothing to change this mindset by suggesting that he has free agents lined up to sign as soon as the transfer embargo is lifted, and saying that the club need to sign 40 players.
What happened to getting spending under control, accepting a lower wage bill, and running the operation on a par with it's means? Then you can consider rebuilding.
Stricter spending rules, yes. More financial transparency, yes. But you still will not stop stupid people acting stupidly. Ultimately, they have to either learn their lessons, or pay the price.
While I have a level of admiration for the current 'Save Our Club' campaign, I believe it has started years too late, and rather than celebrate the MM spending spree, they should have been protesting.
Yes, High Wycombe could have lost the Wanderers, but there wasn't that much support for the Hayes plan, and some people strongly objected.
This club survived (barely) by struggling along cutting costs and punching far and above our weight on the pitch and the fans struggled and worried along with the club. I don't want them out of business but struggling down in League One is the least we should expect. The EFL giving them time to find another dodgy boss to stay in the Championship does them no credit in my.opinion.
I too am deeply ambivalent about Derby’s position. On the one hand as a fan of the game and as someone who understands the importance of a club to its community, the prospect of any club going bust appalls me. On the other hand, as a fan of level playing fields, of owning your own sh*t and of treating others as you would have them treat you, I will have a profound sense of injustice should Derby come through this season with nothing but memories of a stressful year in their debit column.
This is a club who have gambled it all on promotion to the Premier League and lost, have then gamed the system to the max in order to avoid detection and then kick the inevitable sanctions as far down the road as possible, have then gambled once again in not divesting assets in January in order once again to prioritise their on field prospects over meeting their obligations to anyone else and to thereby render any sanctions that have been imposed ultimately meaningless.
So is it enough for the fans to declare that they have done nothing wrong, that they are not to blame? To flip the passive position on its head, Have they done anything right in all this? Can they point to anyone making any enquiries as MM moved Pride Park out of the club’s ownership? Was there a movement last summer to balance the books in order to at least stave off liquidation? Were there calls to sell players this January or was there relief that the very real prospect of playing their way out of relegation would not be dealt a blow?
It has been said many times before, but the thing I find myself coming back to is our recent past. We had a lot of fans who backed Beeks to the hilt and then supported Hayes’ plans to bring total football/rugby to the town, I recall heated debate on the Gasroom and I recall that any number of arguments questioning the sound footing of these plans fell on deaf ears. Look at Coventry, look at Northampton, look at Colchester - they don’t own their own stadiums and they are doing alright. We will never progress unless we have some moneyman come in and invest a pile, and Moneyman will only do that if he gets all of the toys. Those were the arguments. We resisted because we were a small club who proportionately had a lot of fans who were vested in the ownership of the club. We still lost the training ground, we still lost the youth team, we still lost the senior playing staff but we were prepared to save the club at all costs.
So I may indeed feel it sad if Derby passes, but I will also feel bemused that it all came to pass without a fight.
I’d be interested to know what action, if any, Derby fans took against their ownership. When Hayes was running up the debt there was a vocal section of Wycombe fans worried about what he was doing, and of course the black and white campaign that opposed the move to Booker.
I think the easiest way to explain the feeling towards Derby is that nobody really believes that they will go bust or cease to exist, but why should they be allowed to cheat so compressively and completely just so their fans don't have to experience lower divisions or threadbare squads, at the expense of clubs in lower leagues with threadbare squads.
Latest no information update
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/derby-county-wycombe-compensation-administration-6779660.amp
Btw did Rooney stay because Everton's finances are even worse?
'One of the main obstacles to the club's sale so far has been the compensation claims from Middlesbrough and Wycombe Wanderers which both relate to the club's FFP breaches.'
And yet article then goes on to say despite no agreement it will have no effect on the sale. What a load of old pony. I am amazed that £20 odd million owed to the taxman and someone else owning the stadium is not mentioned as a stumbling block but some minuscule pay-off to us is!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/60695605
Another bidder pulls out. They 'only' offered £30m - and they wanted the stadium in that too...!
They'll liquidate eventually. Christ they're stringing their fans along though.
Although this stupidity shouldn't be allowed to drag on it is fairly positive for them, they seem to have several bidders that are prepared to take over their situation despite Morris hanging on for his money.
Not sure I evaluate it similarly - I guess we'll see 'soon'
Could easily go the other way if the ask is just ridiculous.
Hard to believe anyone is willing to pay more than a quid for a club riddled with debt, that doesn't own its ground, and its only assets are on short contracts. All you're buying is the right to pay out a shitload of money.
You’re paying for a bucket of shit and you won’t own the bucket
There's a real conundrum for any prospective buyer. They'll want to know which league Derby are in next year, or at least have it as a condition of purchase.
However, since it seems unlikely they'll pay all football creditors and HMRC, there's quite a possibility of a further 15(?) point deduction when they exit Administration.
If the sale gets delayed too long, that point deduction could mean they start life in league 1 on -15 points next season.
How sad.
How are the administrators still saying that Wycombe is even remotely responsible for their shit show.
Would a lack of buyer be more responsible ?
Victim blaming at its finest.
I know wishing a club would go under is a cardinal sin (apart from certain cases like MK Dons, clubs funded by human rights abusers etc.), but I have to congratulate everyone involved with Derby County for managing to seriously test my resolve in this area!
Here’s a question I don’t think I’ve seen asked - apologies if I’ve missed. I haven’t seen that the administrator has been taking serious steps to reduce Derby’s outgoings. Are they continuing to breach FFP now?
In terms of day to day operating the answer is most likely yes, but the application of FFP is bases on submitted accounts, so until it shows up on paper, effectively no.
They haven’t been able to sign anyone, so the few sales will have reduced continuous outgoings a bit and nothing spent on transfer fees and some income from those few sales - I’d think they could be within a £13m loss for this season so “FPP Compliant” but that depends on losses for the preceding 2 seasons as FPP is over a rolling 3 years (I think). I don’t know if being penalised for one breach “resets” the period for subsequent rolling periods
"Sports Minister - where are you?"
One answer is that they are buying the brand loyalty of the consumers.
I guess they are hoping to be in the Championship at the end of the season, Administrators hand in glove with the club to do the same as they did last season and drag it out.
My understanding is that DCFC have been operating with a wage bill approximately 1.5 times their income, add to that other operating costs and it indicates a dire business model that is utterly unsustainable. With FFP based on accounts over a rolling three year
period, I doubt the recent transfer embargo and offloading of a few players has had a major effect on the figures.
The £39m loss over three years figure may be manageable as a one off by some clubs, but as a long term operating model it's a disaster waiting to happen for anybody.
This rolling model is designed to average out short term effects and give a club greater flexibility in financial planning, so that fire sales become unnecessary for example. Clearly the model works because Derby have not had to resort to fire sales. QED.
I'd suggest they chose not to resort to fire sales in order to retain the look of being a Championship outfit and attract a better class of
idiotinvestor.They have been allowed to do this by the League delaying it's firm demand for proof of funds and a preferred bidder with means. Wether that "works" long term is far from concluded. Ultimately the push to get a move on probably wont come from the league, it will be a winding up order.
At some point, soon, HMRC will lose patience & issue a formal winding up petition at which point the shit hits the proverbial fan for DCFC; as others have said they are one of many basket cases in the financial circus that passes for The Championship and their business model is totally unsustainable (see also Reading, Bournemouth, Birmingham in particular but also Everton in the PL).
As I understand administration after 6 months of being appointed the administrators have to give quite a detailed update to creditors - this is about 22nd March.
This should include progress to date along with information on fees/expenses incurred.
Might be some interesting reading on that day.
@carrickblue - do you know what happens if they say they can't and ask for an extension?
@railwaysteve that did raise a smile.
If it was a serious question I have no idea of the implications of being late.
They don’t, as far as I know, have to provide this information other than to creditors so perhaps try to release under an nda - will be interesting to see what gets made public