@ReturnToSenda said:
I find it hard to show compassion for people as aggressively deluded as their fans. Has anyone seen a reasonable take on the situation from a single one of them? Doesn't someone on here work at Pride Park? Maybe they can shed some light on what the general attitude is like 'on the ground'.
You’d rather Derby went out of business because they have some aggressively deluded fans who are smashing out all sorts as keyboard warriors.
@ReturnToSenda said:
I find it hard to show compassion for people as aggressively deluded as their fans. Has anyone seen a reasonable take on the situation from a single one of them? Doesn't someone on here work at Pride Park? Maybe they can shed some light on what the general attitude is like 'on the ground'.
You’d rather Derby went out of business because they have some aggressively deluded fans who are smashing out all sorts as keyboard warriors.
Don't put words in my mouth.
Ok, so I’ll go all Dev C on you here.
If as has been alluded to on the BBC and by the administrators that our claim will result in a preferred bidder not being found and then in theory the death of the club.
If ours was the only claim left and if we keep the claim in place they die OR we remove the claim they survive.
@ReturnToSenda said:
I find it hard to show compassion for people as aggressively deluded as their fans. Has anyone seen a reasonable take on the situation from a single one of them? Doesn't someone on here work at Pride Park? Maybe they can shed some light on what the general attitude is like 'on the ground'.
You’d rather Derby went out of business because they have some aggressively deluded fans who are smashing out all sorts as keyboard warriors.
Don't put words in my mouth.
Ok, so I’ll go all Dev C on you here.
If as has been alluded to on the BBC and by the administrators that our claim will result in a preferred bidder not being found and then in theory the death of the club.
If ours was the only claim left and if we keep the claim in place they die OR we remove the claim they survive.
What would you do?
Genuine question.
But it isn't going to be the claim that breaks the deal. We are very much the make weight in these proceedings.
@ReturnToSenda said:
I find it hard to show compassion for people as aggressively deluded as their fans. Has anyone seen a reasonable take on the situation from a single one of them? Doesn't someone on here work at Pride Park? Maybe they can shed some light on what the general attitude is like 'on the ground'.
You’d rather Derby went out of business because they have some aggressively deluded fans who are smashing out all sorts as keyboard warriors.
Don't put words in my mouth.
Ok, so I’ll go all Dev C on you here.
If as has been alluded to on the BBC and by the administrators that our claim will result in a preferred bidder not being found and then in theory the death of the club.
If ours was the only claim left and if we keep the claim in place they die OR we remove the claim they survive.
What would you do?
Genuine question.
I'm not commenting on a hypothetical situation. I don't want them to go out of business, but as I have repeatedly said, it wouldn't be our fault if it came to that (@drcongo has put it better than anyone so far, in a few short words).
@ReturnToSenda said:
I find it hard to show compassion for people as aggressively deluded as their fans. Has anyone seen a reasonable take on the situation from a single one of them? Doesn't someone on here work at Pride Park? Maybe they can shed some light on what the general attitude is like 'on the ground'.
You’d rather Derby went out of business because they have some aggressively deluded fans who are smashing out all sorts as keyboard warriors.
Don't put words in my mouth.
Ok, so I’ll go all Dev C on you here.
If as has been alluded to on the BBC and by the administrators that our claim will result in a preferred bidder not being found and then in theory the death of the club.
If ours was the only claim left and if we keep the claim in place they die OR we remove the claim they survive.
What would you do?
Genuine question.
But it isn't going to be the claim that breaks the deal. We are very much the make weight in these proceedings.
Well, according to the media it is. Your points 1-3 for £58M are monies they actually owe for goods and services they’ve received but not paid for.
Point 4 - are claims for potential loss of earnings. Which may or May it not be football creditor debts. They could be dismissed in a court of law, upheld partially or in full.
The problem is there isn’t time for #4 to be settled in court before they get wound up.
Now if we were in group 3 - football debt, I think we should leave our claim in but we’re not.
Derby deserve literally everything they get except one thing and that for me is to be killed off completely.
No doubt even if Rob C dropped our claim now...we'll still get the blame. Even without killing Derby, a lot of fan forums have already stated they want us to go bust...just because we beat them. If the EFL and the taxman actually finish Derby I will be very surprised. Well, until Rooney legs it to Goodison anyway.
If my understanding isn't outright wrong. They refused to submit accounts which would have guaranteed a points deduction which from the final standings, was the difference between our relegation or survival. That's the difference of 7 million or whatever the TV money is worth. Plus club stature and growth etc etc.
They have 100 odd million other debts, we're not the main problem, HMRC are.
@drcongo said:
There’s some truly bizarre posts in this thread. If you cut your own leg off and then I gave you a paper cut did I make you bleed to death?
Haha, fair enough. However, if there’s a surgeon stood there ready to save me and he refuses to do so until you remove the piece of paper. What would you do?
No one seriously wants Derby to fold - of course tempers and passions are raised at the moment as accusations and counter-accusations are hurled about like so much confetti (and that's just amongst ourselves); but in our calmer, saner moments we know what its like to be teetering on the edge of financial oblivion, better than most, and none of us would wish that on another club.
There are 2 things that will ultimately derail any purchase and perhaps seal Derby's fate and they are
a) the fact they don't own the stadium - I know the administrators are exploring ways under, I believe it is S70 of, the Insolvency act of forcing the sale of the stadium to any potential bidder, but they may not succeed, Morris did after all value it at £81m &
b) Middlesborough's £45m claim and our £6m claim which if both are accepted would double the clubs debt and therefore potential purchase price - i personally think the former's claim is much more doubtful than ours but suspect all parties will sooner rather than later negotiate an agreed amount to rank in the administration to allow a final purchase price to be struck, This would allow a deal to go through and creditors to be paid.
Let us not forget Mel Morris is a very rich man and could settle this tomorrow by writing a cheque for what the club owe (from under his watch after all) and agreeing to transfer the stadium back to the club, this would facilitate a speedy sale and after the administrators fees it would be Morris who got the money back...
@ReturnToSenda said:
I find it hard to show compassion for people as aggressively deluded as their fans. Has anyone seen a reasonable take on the situation from a single one of them? Doesn't someone on here work at Pride Park? Maybe they can shed some light on what the general attitude is like 'on the ground'.
Seriously? We have our own set of deluded fans.
You’d rather Derby went out of business because they have some aggressively deluded fans who are smashing out all sorts as keyboard warriors.
Im sure there are many sensible Derby fans who acknowledge the situation and how we may feel.
Yes, they cheated but our ire should be directed at the rules & procedures that allowed them to get away without a points deduction last season. Which meant we went down.
We shouldn’t be trying to gain a few
Million which could ultimately result in killing a football club off from its way of life.
I don’t know what I’d do if Wycombe died,
It doesn’t bare thinking about, and that should be where all fans support each other’s clubs no matter the circumstances.
Take a paper bag and breathe into it slowly, Derby County will not “die” in the worst set of circumstances (which will have nothing to do with WWFC) they’d be a Derby county AFC application to start in the eighth or ninth tier before you can say amortisation as per Hereford, Bury, Rushdon and Diamonds, Wimbledon, Aldershot et cetera, et cetera, et cetera
@Username There are two reasons why our claim is the problem:
1) It is contested by Derby who do not think it should be paid. The HMRC claim is not and I believe they have funds allocated to pay that.
2) The EFL have listed our claim as a football matter, meaning it must be settled before the administrators can name a preferred bidder. No sane buyer will take this on as a liability, and Derby neither want to nor can afford to settle it, so we’re now stuck at an impasse.
To change tack slightly on the discussion, I cannot remember having seen an apology from Derby to Wycombe for their actions last year. If forgiveness of debts moral and/or fiscal is truly sought, an apology is generally considered to be its precursor.
If the Boro claim didn't exist and dwarf ours, I might think differently. But from my next to zero legal knowledge, it looks to me like they cheated us out of a place in the league above and therefore we should be included as a creditor.
Getting their stadium back from Morris should be a far bigger priority of anger to Derby fans, not us who they have effectively robbed from
@drcongo said:
There’s some truly bizarre posts in this thread. If you cut your own leg off and then I gave you a paper cut did I make you bleed to death?
Haha, fair enough. However, if there’s a surgeon stood there ready to save me and he refuses to do so until you remove the piece of paper. What would you do?
The doctor would be at fault. His oath would oblige him to treat you. In fact, if he did nothing and you bled to death I believe he would loose his medical registration.
If they plan on trying to settle the claim in court, then a public apology to us would be a very bad idea.
I suspect what Rob Couhig is holding out for here is a phone call from the administrator to negotiate a settlement. But even if that does happen, Derby still have the issue of a £40m claim from Middlesbrough which they clearly won’t be in any position to pay out. Someone needs to budge here: either us and Boro, or the EFL, or Derby are finished.
@Last_Quarter said: @Username There are two reasons why our claim is the problem:
1) It is contested by Derby who do not think it should be paid. The HMRC claim is not and I believe they have funds allocated to pay that.
2) The EFL have listed our claim as a football matter, meaning it must be settled before the administrators can name a preferred bidder. No sane buyer will take this on as a liability, and Derby neither want to nor can afford to settle it, so we’re now stuck at an impasse.
So they have a buyer, prepared to clear the other £102M of debt and it's going to fail because they can't reach a deal on the remaining £6M?
And don't forget they still won't own the ground. Guess who that belongs to?
Clue MM.
And rather than die, you lose all your belongings that you've not paid for, and leave your rented home.
I hope it doesn't come down to that, and if we were literally the only thing- and the efl came out and said specifically that if we dropped the claim Derby would survive as an entity, I would reconsider, but that's not the position that I see right now.
It’s not £6m @Twizz - it’s £50 million when you include the Middlesbrough claim as well which is being lodged in the same way as ours. And I thought that £50m was included in the £102m of total debt you quote above, but I may be wrong. I think the buyers have committed to clearing the £50m debts, but no one wants to take on the extra £50m liability from ours and Boro’s claims.
@eric_plant Absolutely agree - no doubt Gibson is chancing his arm massively but there’s clearly long running beef between him and Derby. Based on my very limited legal knowledge I think our claim could win a legal battle (there’s at least a clear route where you can prove it anyway). I’d say there’s no chance that Boro’s would succeed.
@Last_Quarter - Hobson's choice really, but if Derby are not even willing to acknowledge that they have wronged us and apologise for the loss they have caused the club in standing and in financial terms, to the players who could be playing at a higher level and to the fans who by rights should have seen Championship football in person at Adams Park by now, I don't see how there is any basis at all for their requesting the withdrawal of our suit.
Comments
Don't put words in my mouth.
Morris should be forced to save Derby, not us.
FYI, if the numbers in this piece are accurate our claim for £6M really is a small slice. Derby's debts are
1) 28M to HMRC
2) 20M to MSC, soft loans secured against Pride Park
3) 10M football debt other than ...
4) 50M claim by Wycombe & Middlesborough
So that's £6M Wycombe and £102M elsewhere.
RC has a duty to the other share holders in WWFC, and that includes the Trust, to pursue the claim. I'm right behind him.
Derby's financial problems are all there own making not ours.
https://fanbanter.co.uk/derby-county-face-potential-liquidation-with-club-sleepwalking-towards-oblivion/
Ok, so I’ll go all Dev C on you here.
If as has been alluded to on the BBC and by the administrators that our claim will result in a preferred bidder not being found and then in theory the death of the club.
If ours was the only claim left and if we keep the claim in place they die OR we remove the claim they survive.
What would you do?
Genuine question.
But it isn't going to be the claim that breaks the deal. We are very much the make weight in these proceedings.
I'm not commenting on a hypothetical situation. I don't want them to go out of business, but as I have repeatedly said, it wouldn't be our fault if it came to that (@drcongo has put it better than anyone so far, in a few short words).
Can we just confirm that people realise all the mess here is Derby's own doing?
We certainly won't be any villains in this story.
Well, according to the media it is. Your points 1-3 for £58M are monies they actually owe for goods and services they’ve received but not paid for.
Point 4 - are claims for potential loss of earnings. Which may or May it not be football creditor debts. They could be dismissed in a court of law, upheld partially or in full.
The problem is there isn’t time for #4 to be settled in court before they get wound up.
Now if we were in group 3 - football debt, I think we should leave our claim in but we’re not.
Derby deserve literally everything they get except one thing and that for me is to be killed off completely.
I see Derby are due to visit Middlesbrough on February 12th. Could be tasty.
Completely agree with your first statement - 100% nailed on!
I’m not sure your second one is how this will play out though.
No doubt even if Rob C dropped our claim now...we'll still get the blame. Even without killing Derby, a lot of fan forums have already stated they want us to go bust...just because we beat them. If the EFL and the taxman actually finish Derby I will be very surprised. Well, until Rooney legs it to Goodison anyway.
If my understanding isn't outright wrong. They refused to submit accounts which would have guaranteed a points deduction which from the final standings, was the difference between our relegation or survival. That's the difference of 7 million or whatever the TV money is worth. Plus club stature and growth etc etc.
They have 100 odd million other debts, we're not the main problem, HMRC are.
Haha, fair enough. However, if there’s a surgeon stood there ready to save me and he refuses to do so until you remove the piece of paper. What would you do?
No one seriously wants Derby to fold - of course tempers and passions are raised at the moment as accusations and counter-accusations are hurled about like so much confetti (and that's just amongst ourselves); but in our calmer, saner moments we know what its like to be teetering on the edge of financial oblivion, better than most, and none of us would wish that on another club.
There are 2 things that will ultimately derail any purchase and perhaps seal Derby's fate and they are
a) the fact they don't own the stadium - I know the administrators are exploring ways under, I believe it is S70 of, the Insolvency act of forcing the sale of the stadium to any potential bidder, but they may not succeed, Morris did after all value it at £81m &
b) Middlesborough's £45m claim and our £6m claim which if both are accepted would double the clubs debt and therefore potential purchase price - i personally think the former's claim is much more doubtful than ours but suspect all parties will sooner rather than later negotiate an agreed amount to rank in the administration to allow a final purchase price to be struck, This would allow a deal to go through and creditors to be paid.
Let us not forget Mel Morris is a very rich man and could settle this tomorrow by writing a cheque for what the club owe (from under his watch after all) and agreeing to transfer the stadium back to the club, this would facilitate a speedy sale and after the administrators fees it would be Morris who got the money back...
Take a paper bag and breathe into it slowly, Derby County will not “die” in the worst set of circumstances (which will have nothing to do with WWFC) they’d be a Derby county AFC application to start in the eighth or ninth tier before you can say amortisation as per Hereford, Bury, Rushdon and Diamonds, Wimbledon, Aldershot et cetera, et cetera, et cetera
@Username There are two reasons why our claim is the problem:
1) It is contested by Derby who do not think it should be paid. The HMRC claim is not and I believe they have funds allocated to pay that.
2) The EFL have listed our claim as a football matter, meaning it must be settled before the administrators can name a preferred bidder. No sane buyer will take this on as a liability, and Derby neither want to nor can afford to settle it, so we’re now stuck at an impasse.
To change tack slightly on the discussion, I cannot remember having seen an apology from Derby to Wycombe for their actions last year. If forgiveness of debts moral and/or fiscal is truly sought, an apology is generally considered to be its precursor.
If the Boro claim didn't exist and dwarf ours, I might think differently. But from my next to zero legal knowledge, it looks to me like they cheated us out of a place in the league above and therefore we should be included as a creditor.
Getting their stadium back from Morris should be a far bigger priority of anger to Derby fans, not us who they have effectively robbed from
The doctor would be at fault. His oath would oblige him to treat you. In fact, if he did nothing and you bled to death I believe he would loose his medical registration.
If they plan on trying to settle the claim in court, then a public apology to us would be a very bad idea.
I suspect what Rob Couhig is holding out for here is a phone call from the administrator to negotiate a settlement. But even if that does happen, Derby still have the issue of a £40m claim from Middlesbrough which they clearly won’t be in any position to pay out. Someone needs to budge here: either us and Boro, or the EFL, or Derby are finished.
So they have a buyer, prepared to clear the other £102M of debt and it's going to fail because they can't reach a deal on the remaining £6M?
And don't forget they still won't own the ground. Guess who that belongs to?
Clue MM.
And rather than die, you lose all your belongings that you've not paid for, and leave your rented home.
I hope it doesn't come down to that, and if we were literally the only thing- and the efl came out and said specifically that if we dropped the claim Derby would survive as an entity, I would reconsider, but that's not the position that I see right now.
Middlesbrough's claim is nonsense isn't it?
Merely getting a place in the play offs isn't worth £45M
I've not paid any attention to it? Did they lose in the play offs or miss out on a place?
They missed out on a place in the playoffs
Well I hope something gets sorted! Only time will tell.
It’s not £6m @Twizz - it’s £50 million when you include the Middlesbrough claim as well which is being lodged in the same way as ours. And I thought that £50m was included in the £102m of total debt you quote above, but I may be wrong. I think the buyers have committed to clearing the £50m debts, but no one wants to take on the extra £50m liability from ours and Boro’s claims.
@eric_plant Absolutely agree - no doubt Gibson is chancing his arm massively but there’s clearly long running beef between him and Derby. Based on my very limited legal knowledge I think our claim could win a legal battle (there’s at least a clear route where you can prove it anyway). I’d say there’s no chance that Boro’s would succeed.
Indeed, we don't want Derby to be liquidated as we might not get any of the £6M. ?
@Last_Quarter - Hobson's choice really, but if Derby are not even willing to acknowledge that they have wronged us and apologise for the loss they have caused the club in standing and in financial terms, to the players who could be playing at a higher level and to the fans who by rights should have seen Championship football in person at Adams Park by now, I don't see how there is any basis at all for their requesting the withdrawal of our suit.
If our claim results in Derby going out of business we get no compensation anyway.