But it seems to be because the EFL (not us or Boro) want our claims on Derby to be expedited. We aren’t the ones setting a time limit. Why can’t agreement of the final settlements be noted and written into any take-over plans? They could surely pay us in instalments if necessary.
If the administrators can agree a payment plan that the new owners have to follow is that even allowed?
As technically they don’t owe us any money. Whereas they do for HMRC etc
The chances of the EFL letting a 'big club' go to the wall I would suggest are Nil. They will find a way to let Ashley in and as that will mean stuffing all the creditors as usual I doubt our machinations will end up in anything close to closing them down. We've made our point.
If Derby go bust, it's not Wycombe's fault. No one wants that to happen, but it would set a dangerous precedent to drop our claim because their years of cheating have put them on the precipice.
I simply don't believe we are holding anything up, I'm not sure there is anything to hold up. And we aren't actually suing them.
I wonder how people will feel should Derby be able to ditch a good portion of their debts later this month, sack a whole load of admin staff and then plough on adding to their squad.
I'd personally be in favour now of some kind of conditional claim that says we won't ask for any £ for a year or two, if they are in Lg1, and maybe only anything to come out of actual profits. I see no reason to pat them on the back, forgive loads of cheating and let them stiff us and everyone else and then plough on as normal.
@MindlessDrugHoover said:
Those fans with their begging bowls and cries of "spare us!" will the first to be demanding big name signings as soon as a new owner is in.
Surely the debt to the taxman will be their undoing anyway. £28 million is a poo load of monies & the tax payer can't possibly be expected to just keep writing these huge sums off, whilst the Jo public are expected to keep subsidising?
@MindlessDrugHoover said:
Those fans with their begging bowls and cries of "spare us!" will the first to be demanding big name signings as soon as a new owner is in.
That is, to be fair, in the nature of fandom.
Sort of agree but I must confess I was quite proud of the fact that when we were skint we never spent any money on players. (And still struggling with the current reality whereby we are forking out the likes of £150K on anyone - good value as that currently looks)
@EwanHoosaami said:
They've cheated, whilst uncomfortable with the potential, if it is allowed, would you be happy for them to be taken over, slate wiped clean and then a new owner buy their way back? I know I wouldn't.
If the alternative is the club ceasing to exist, then yes.
These seem to me to be the two possible outcomes
I can't imagine that you are against POCA @eric_plant are there not similarities? Football clubs appear to have been working under different rules to many and TBH it simply has to stop. Lessons will never be learned if there is a get out of jail free card every time.
@EwanHoosaami said:
Surely the debt to the taxman will be their undoing anyway. £28 million is a poo load of monies & the tax payer can't possibly be expected to just keep writing these huge sums off, whilst the Jo public are expected to keep subsidising?
They will prefer to get half of the debt than nothing at all if Derby go out of business.
As I have pointed out earlier HMRC are not going to agree a reduction in the debt partly as they rank as first creditor and more importantly as they will not want to set a precedent for the rest of football.
The EFL process around administration seems to be that all debts (as defined in their rules) are cleared during the administration or within 12 months of sale failure to do this means further points deductions are applied.
Debts in this instance are 100% of preferential creditors (HMRC mostly), 100% of football creditors and 25% of the rest - so the people who get screwed are the staff, fans, local suppliers etc.
Our claim for the equivalent of 1 season of Championship solidarity payments and TV money is not at all unreasonable and in the grand scheme of DCFCs debt mountain is not what is preventing a sale,
On the other hand Gibson's apparent desire to make a mockery of the whole thing and destroy Derby is worrying for all parties.
@EwanHoosaami said:
Surely the debt to the taxman will be their undoing anyway. £28 million is a poo load of monies & the tax payer can't possibly be expected to just keep writing these huge sums off, whilst the Jo public are expected to keep subsidising?
They will prefer to get half of the debt than nothing at all if Derby go out of business.
I get that @mooneyman having run my own business I have been in a similar position myself. It is a real shite show tbh, but Derby have to pay somehow for their blatant overspending, debts to loads of people and their cheating. If that means they have to pay those debts on a drip feed whilst undergoing a fee paying transfer embargo until they are debt free then, so be it.
@EwanHoosaami said:
Surely the debt to the taxman will be their undoing anyway. £28 million is a poo load of monies & the tax payer can't possibly be expected to just keep writing these huge sums off, whilst the Jo public are expected to keep subsidising?
They will prefer to get half of the debt than nothing at all if Derby go out of business.
Possibly but there is a precedent to think of too. If they let Derby off then other clubs will try it on too. They could let them spread it out over a longer period.
In an ideal world all debts should be cleared before a club in admin could start spending on transfer fees again once they’ve been bought. It should be in the rules.
I know this would then mean lots of clubs might go under as why would someone “buy” the club knowing they might have years of only signing free transfers ahead of them.
Perhaps by having a rule like that in place it might force clubs to live within their means.
I’m amazed no players have left the building yet and been sold to pay debts.
@EwanHoosaami said:
Surely the debt to the taxman will be their undoing anyway. £28 million is a poo load of monies & the tax payer can't possibly be expected to just keep writing these huge sums off, whilst the Jo public are expected to keep subsidising?
They will prefer to get half of the debt than nothing at all if Derby go out of business.
Possibly but there is a precedent to think of too. If they let Derby off then other clubs will try it on too. They could let them spread it out over a longer period.
Or HMRC could have taken action earlier and not let Derby run up tax debts of over £20m! Hopefully they have learnt a lesson here.
@EwanHoosaami said:
Surely the debt to the taxman will be their undoing anyway. £28 million is a poo load of monies & the tax payer can't possibly be expected to just keep writing these huge sums off, whilst the Jo public are expected to keep subsidising?
They will prefer to get half of the debt than nothing at all if Derby go out of business.
Possibly but there is a precedent to think of too. If they let Derby off then other clubs will try it on too. They could let them spread it out over a longer period.
Or HMRC could have taken action earlier and not let Derby run up tax debts of over £20m! Hopefully they have learnt a lesson here.
It's happened too often by football clubs in the past to believe it won't happen again. I wouldn't mind betting it is happening right now somewhere in the top echelons of the football pyramid?
@EwanHoosaami said:
Surely the debt to the taxman will be their undoing anyway. £28 million is a poo load of monies & the tax payer can't possibly be expected to just keep writing these huge sums off, whilst the Jo public are expected to keep subsidising?
They will prefer to get half of the debt than nothing at all if Derby go out of business.
Possibly but there is a precedent to think of too. If they let Derby off then other clubs will try it on too. They could let them spread it out over a longer period.
Or HMRC could have taken action earlier and not let Derby run up tax debts of over £20m! Hopefully they have learnt a lesson here.
I don't know Tbh if this is one years money or accumulated aged debts.
Ongoing financial health checks are definitely something the league are going to have to bring in to head off this sort of thing but then when they tell a club that hasn't got a pot to piss in not to sign any new contracts until they can at least justify how they'll exist for 6 months they get told they are actively trying to shut a club down and are the enemy.
@EwanHoosaami said:
Surely the debt to the taxman will be their undoing anyway. £28 million is a poo load of monies & the tax payer can't possibly be expected to just keep writing these huge sums off, whilst the Jo public are expected to keep subsidising?
They will prefer to get half of the debt than nothing at all if Derby go out of business.
Possibly but there is a precedent to think of too. If they let Derby off then other clubs will try it on too. They could let them spread it out over a longer period.
Or HMRC could have taken action earlier and not let Derby run up tax debts of over £20m! Hopefully they have learnt a lesson here.
Not sure Derby can blame HMRC for overspending on wages and not setting aside the contributions they deducted from wages but I get where you are coming from.
@EwanHoosaami said:
Surely the debt to the taxman will be their undoing anyway. £28 million is a poo load of monies & the tax payer can't possibly be expected to just keep writing these huge sums off, whilst the Jo public are expected to keep subsidising?
They will prefer to get half of the debt than nothing at all if Derby go out of business.
Possibly but there is a precedent to think of too. If they let Derby off then other clubs will try it on too. They could let them spread it out over a longer period.
Or HMRC could have taken action earlier and not let Derby run up tax debts of over £20m! Hopefully they have learnt a lesson here.
Been tough for anyone to go too far in legal action over the last 18 months due to rules in place stopping winding up petitions for debt that in any way could be attributed to COVID issues. Of course Derby would argue cash flow difficulties due to lack of crowds and any HMRC action would be stopped.
This ridiculous over spending and chasing the dream from clubs/owners has to stop. For every Brentford, you have a Reading, Derby, Bristol City or Cardiff.
Derby should not be allowed to wipe off debts, get a few points deducted, find a new owner and suddenly be starting afresh the following season. It’s just wrong.
Derby will never cease to exist. The current club may fold but the phoenix will rise again at Level 9/10 and will be massively supported.
I personally think big clubs need to fold to set rules and laws in motion to stop this ridiculous over spend.
I am still uncomfortable with our claim, especially as it might be directly linked to the current club folding. This would hang over our club for decades to come.
I would like to see us pull out after the fire sale but before Jan 31st. Gibson will never let this go as Morris called him a liar for years. He will make sure the club folds and Morris loses his ownership of the ground in the process.
Anyway what a day yesterday and what a club we have.
@eric_plant said:
But we wouldn't get any money. So you just want to kill them to punish them?
They've killed themselves. This isn't on us. We haven't spent beyond our means, we didn't cheat, and we're not responsible. I'd grieve for the death of a club, just as I did for Bury, but feel no more guilt about them going out of business than I would do if Derby did.
There’s no way the EFL let Derby go out of business. We learnt that the day that Bury were kicked out of the league, but Bolton were mysteriously allowed to continue.
I could not agree more with @eric_plant. A lot of you spend your time trawling Twitter and opposition fan boards for anyone saying rude things about Wycombe and then take huge amounts of offence. I worry about your blood pressure, quite frankly, but everyone is allowed a hobby.
But this is a spurious and pernicious claim by Rob Couhig which, in my opinion, is simply designed to detract from the fact he gave up on our season in January last year and it deserves all the opprobrium it's getting from Derby fans.
Derby don't owe us a penny. If they manipulated the rules then the EFL can decide on the punishment, as they have done. Every penny Derby possess should be used to pay the creditors: the SMEs that are threatened with going out of business; the taxman who has to recoup many billions to pay for our vaccines, tests and furlough payments.
If Rob Couhig persists in his claim he can have no complaints about becoming even more of a pantomime villain than I.
But this is a spurious and pernicious claim by Rob Couhig which, in my opinion, is simply designed to detract from the fact he gave up on our season in January last year and it deserves all the opprobrium it's getting from Derby fans.
That's a hell of an accusation. Got anything to back it up?
No-one other than Derby themselves have got them to this point. No-one other day Han Derby can save them or send them under. Cheats should never profit over fair play.
Ironically this year supposed clean Derby are performing better than lasts years cheating one so surely financial responsibility can get work. I firmly believe a ‘big’ club need to fail to really make a change for all. Much like the horrible scenes at Hillsborough led to huge safety improvements for spectators maybe Derby going bust will help other clubs survive and prosper. It would be horrible for Derby fans but if not them it will be fans of other clubs at some point.
Whilst I have my Rob Couhig exaggeration dial turned on to filter his high claims down a bit he’s right to pursue Derby over this. A second season in the Championship could have set our club up for years to come.
Comments
But it seems to be because the EFL (not us or Boro) want our claims on Derby to be expedited. We aren’t the ones setting a time limit. Why can’t agreement of the final settlements be noted and written into any take-over plans? They could surely pay us in instalments if necessary.
So do I. Let Middlesbrough take the flack if their action puts Derby out of business.
If the administrators can agree a payment plan that the new owners have to follow is that even allowed?
As technically they don’t owe us any money. Whereas they do for HMRC etc
I agree with that as well !
The chances of the EFL letting a 'big club' go to the wall I would suggest are Nil. They will find a way to let Ashley in and as that will mean stuffing all the creditors as usual I doubt our machinations will end up in anything close to closing them down. We've made our point.
If Derby go bust, it's not Wycombe's fault. No one wants that to happen, but it would set a dangerous precedent to drop our claim because their years of cheating have put them on the precipice.
I simply don't believe we are holding anything up, I'm not sure there is anything to hold up. And we aren't actually suing them.
I wonder how people will feel should Derby be able to ditch a good portion of their debts later this month, sack a whole load of admin staff and then plough on adding to their squad.
I'd personally be in favour now of some kind of conditional claim that says we won't ask for any £ for a year or two, if they are in Lg1, and maybe only anything to come out of actual profits. I see no reason to pat them on the back, forgive loads of cheating and let them stiff us and everyone else and then plough on as normal.
Those fans with their begging bowls and cries of "spare us!" will the first to be demanding big name signings as soon as a new owner is in.
That is, to be fair, in the nature of fandom.
Surely the debt to the taxman will be their undoing anyway. £28 million is a poo load of monies & the tax payer can't possibly be expected to just keep writing these huge sums off, whilst the Jo public are expected to keep subsidising?
Sort of agree but I must confess I was quite proud of the fact that when we were skint we never spent any money on players. (And still struggling with the current reality whereby we are forking out the likes of £150K on anyone - good value as that currently looks)
I can't imagine that you are against POCA @eric_plant are there not similarities? Football clubs appear to have been working under different rules to many and TBH it simply has to stop. Lessons will never be learned if there is a get out of jail free card every time.
They will prefer to get half of the debt than nothing at all if Derby go out of business.
As I have pointed out earlier HMRC are not going to agree a reduction in the debt partly as they rank as first creditor and more importantly as they will not want to set a precedent for the rest of football.
The EFL process around administration seems to be that all debts (as defined in their rules) are cleared during the administration or within 12 months of sale failure to do this means further points deductions are applied.
Debts in this instance are 100% of preferential creditors (HMRC mostly), 100% of football creditors and 25% of the rest - so the people who get screwed are the staff, fans, local suppliers etc.
Our claim for the equivalent of 1 season of Championship solidarity payments and TV money is not at all unreasonable and in the grand scheme of DCFCs debt mountain is not what is preventing a sale,
On the other hand Gibson's apparent desire to make a mockery of the whole thing and destroy Derby is worrying for all parties.
I get that @mooneyman having run my own business I have been in a similar position myself. It is a real shite show tbh, but Derby have to pay somehow for their blatant overspending, debts to loads of people and their cheating. If that means they have to pay those debts on a drip feed whilst undergoing a fee paying transfer embargo until they are debt free then, so be it.
Possibly but there is a precedent to think of too. If they let Derby off then other clubs will try it on too. They could let them spread it out over a longer period.
In an ideal world all debts should be cleared before a club in admin could start spending on transfer fees again once they’ve been bought. It should be in the rules.
I know this would then mean lots of clubs might go under as why would someone “buy” the club knowing they might have years of only signing free transfers ahead of them.
Perhaps by having a rule like that in place it might force clubs to live within their means.
I’m amazed no players have left the building yet and been sold to pay debts.
Or HMRC could have taken action earlier and not let Derby run up tax debts of over £20m! Hopefully they have learnt a lesson here.
It's happened too often by football clubs in the past to believe it won't happen again. I wouldn't mind betting it is happening right now somewhere in the top echelons of the football pyramid?
I don't know Tbh if this is one years money or accumulated aged debts.
Ongoing financial health checks are definitely something the league are going to have to bring in to head off this sort of thing but then when they tell a club that hasn't got a pot to piss in not to sign any new contracts until they can at least justify how they'll exist for 6 months they get told they are actively trying to shut a club down and are the enemy.
Not sure Derby can blame HMRC for overspending on wages and not setting aside the contributions they deducted from wages but I get where you are coming from.
Been tough for anyone to go too far in legal action over the last 18 months due to rules in place stopping winding up petitions for debt that in any way could be attributed to COVID issues. Of course Derby would argue cash flow difficulties due to lack of crowds and any HMRC action would be stopped.
This ridiculous over spending and chasing the dream from clubs/owners has to stop. For every Brentford, you have a Reading, Derby, Bristol City or Cardiff.
Derby should not be allowed to wipe off debts, get a few points deducted, find a new owner and suddenly be starting afresh the following season. It’s just wrong.
Derby will never cease to exist. The current club may fold but the phoenix will rise again at Level 9/10 and will be massively supported.
I personally think big clubs need to fold to set rules and laws in motion to stop this ridiculous over spend.
I am still uncomfortable with our claim, especially as it might be directly linked to the current club folding. This would hang over our club for decades to come.
I would like to see us pull out after the fire sale but before Jan 31st. Gibson will never let this go as Morris called him a liar for years. He will make sure the club folds and Morris loses his ownership of the ground in the process.
Anyway what a day yesterday and what a club we have.
They've killed themselves. This isn't on us. We haven't spent beyond our means, we didn't cheat, and we're not responsible. I'd grieve for the death of a club, just as I did for Bury, but feel no more guilt about them going out of business than I would do if Derby did.
The crazy thing is Bury technically aren't dead, just dormant
There’s no way the EFL let Derby go out of business. We learnt that the day that Bury were kicked out of the league, but Bolton were mysteriously allowed to continue.
I could not agree more with @eric_plant. A lot of you spend your time trawling Twitter and opposition fan boards for anyone saying rude things about Wycombe and then take huge amounts of offence. I worry about your blood pressure, quite frankly, but everyone is allowed a hobby.
But this is a spurious and pernicious claim by Rob Couhig which, in my opinion, is simply designed to detract from the fact he gave up on our season in January last year and it deserves all the opprobrium it's getting from Derby fans.
Derby don't owe us a penny. If they manipulated the rules then the EFL can decide on the punishment, as they have done. Every penny Derby possess should be used to pay the creditors: the SMEs that are threatened with going out of business; the taxman who has to recoup many billions to pay for our vaccines, tests and furlough payments.
If Rob Couhig persists in his claim he can have no complaints about becoming even more of a pantomime villain than I.
That's a hell of an accusation. Got anything to back it up?
No-one other than Derby themselves have got them to this point. No-one other day Han Derby can save them or send them under. Cheats should never profit over fair play.
Ironically this year supposed clean Derby are performing better than lasts years cheating one so surely financial responsibility can get work. I firmly believe a ‘big’ club need to fail to really make a change for all. Much like the horrible scenes at Hillsborough led to huge safety improvements for spectators maybe Derby going bust will help other clubs survive and prosper. It would be horrible for Derby fans but if not them it will be fans of other clubs at some point.
Whilst I have my Rob Couhig exaggeration dial turned on to filter his high claims down a bit he’s right to pursue Derby over this. A second season in the Championship could have set our club up for years to come.
They've committed theft and fraud and now they're whining that they're not allowed to avoid paying for that.
The only club responsible for Derby going under would be Derby.