But this is a spurious and pernicious claim by Rob Couhig which, in my opinion, is simply designed to detract from the fact he gave up on our season in January last year and it deserves all the opprobrium it's getting from Derby fans.
That's a hell of an accusation. Got anything to back it up?
Of course he hasn’t. Least of all the fact that our form was among the best in the league after January last season.
Having spent half my career in insolvency related work I can tell you the following
a) no-one held a gun to MM's or DAFC's head and forced them to spend more than they could afford, this was a choice with obvious consequences if they failed to get to the promised land of the Premier League
b) Having failed to gain promotion the over spending chickens came home to roost which led to a conscious decision to change the amortisation method, take a loan from MDS, revalue the stadium & then sell it to MM. These were all ways to try to deliberatelu muddy the waters and avoid breaching the Profitability & Sustainability rules,
c) No one forced DCFC to not file their accounts with the EFL on time, it was their choice to file them late in an attempt (successful) to ensure points deductions were applied after the season thus staving off relegation for another season
d) It is likely HMRC could not chase (or sue) for some or all of the owing tax earlier due to the various Covid tax holidays and deferrals on offer over the last 18-20 months
e) HMRC are highly unlikely to be prepared to reduce their demand as they are not prepared to create a very expensive precedent amongst football clubs and others
f) our claim in the administration is perfectly reasonable and given they have not thrown it out; it appears the administrators accept it has some degree of foundation and legitimacy (this may or may not be at the behest of the EFL depends on which paper and which conspiracy theory you read)
g) WWFC/RC and the administrators will no doubt negotiate a settlement which I am guessing will likely be in region of £1.5-3m
h) The self admitted actions of others caused a clearly definable loss to WWFC. It is therefore absolutely right, reasonable and responsible for the directors of WWFC to protect the companies fiduciary interests as the directors of any other business would do.
i) It is rumoured that Ashley is already haggling with Gibson to get him to "reel his neck in" over the 'Boro claim - Ashley & Gibson go back a long way so this may well succeed.
j) NO ONE is suing DCFC at this point in time
P.S. I collaborated with/helped Raymond Snoddy at the FT when he uncovered & unravelled the spiders web of companies Maxwell had and used to defraud pretty much everyone but especially Mirror Group pensioners
I sometimes wonder what peoples attitude would be if it were discovered that Derby had somehow managed to play with 12 men last season. Until we see financial doping as the same kind of cheating, it will always be attractive.
I hope Derby don’t go out of business, of course, but I’m glad that we’re not going quietly into the night.
Financial doping always seems to be something people don't worry too much about until it affects their own team.
Take Man City. Everyone knows they're doing some very "clever" things with their accounting, but the media and pundits are more concerned with their lovely footy etc.
@Erroll_Sims said:
Having spent half my career in insolvency related work I can tell you the following
a) no-one held a gun to MM's or DAFC's head and forced them to spend more than they could afford, this was a choice with obvious consequences if they failed to get to the promised land of the Premier League
b) Having failed to gain promotion the over spending chickens came home to roost which led to a conscious decision to change the amortisation method, take a loan from MDS, revalue the stadium & then sell it to MM. These were all ways to try to deliberatelu muddy the waters and avoid breaching the Profitability & Sustainability rules,
c) No one forced DCFC to not file their accounts with the EFL on time, it was their choice to file them late in an attempt (successful) to ensure points deductions were applied after the season thus staving off relegation for another season
d) It is likely HMRC could not chase (or sue) for some or all of the owing tax earlier due to the various Covid tax holidays and deferrals on offer over the last 18-20 months
e) HMRC are highly unlikely to be prepared to reduce their demand as they are not prepared to create a very expensive precedent amongst football clubs and others
f) our claim in the administration is perfectly reasonable and given they have not thrown it out; it appears the administrators accept it has some degree of foundation and legitimacy (this may or may not be at the behest of the EFL depends on which paper and which conspiracy theory you read)
g) WWFC/RC and the administrators will no doubt negotiate a settlement which I am guessing will likely be in region of £1.5-3m
h) The self admitted actions of others caused a clearly definable loss to WWFC. It is therefore absolutely right, reasonable and responsible for the directors of WWFC to protect the companies fiduciary interests as the directors of any other business would do.
i) It is rumoured that Ashley is already haggling with Gibson to get him to "reel his neck in" over the 'Boro claim - Ashley & Gibson go back a long way so this may well succeed.
j) NO ONE is suing DCFC at this point in time
P.S. I collaborated with/helped Raymond Snoddy at the FT when he uncovered & unravelled the spiders web of companies Maxwell had and used to defraud pretty much everyone but especially Mirror Group pensioners
@Erroll_Sims said:
Having spent half my career in insolvency related work I can tell you the following
a) no-one held a gun to MM's or DAFC's head and forced them to spend more than they could afford, this was a choice with obvious consequences if they failed to get to the promised land of the Premier League
b) Having failed to gain promotion the over spending chickens came home to roost which led to a conscious decision to change the amortisation method, take a loan from MDS, revalue the stadium & then sell it to MM. These were all ways to try to deliberatelu muddy the waters and avoid breaching the Profitability & Sustainability rules,
c) No one forced DCFC to not file their accounts with the EFL on time, it was their choice to file them late in an attempt (successful) to ensure points deductions were applied after the season thus staving off relegation for another season
d) It is likely HMRC could not chase (or sue) for some or all of the owing tax earlier due to the various Covid tax holidays and deferrals on offer over the last 18-20 months
e) HMRC are highly unlikely to be prepared to reduce their demand as they are not prepared to create a very expensive precedent amongst football clubs and others
f) our claim in the administration is perfectly reasonable and given they have not thrown it out; it appears the administrators accept it has some degree of foundation and legitimacy (this may or may not be at the behest of the EFL depends on which paper and which conspiracy theory you read)
g) WWFC/RC and the administrators will no doubt negotiate a settlement which I am guessing will likely be in region of £1.5-3m
h) The self admitted actions of others caused a clearly definable loss to WWFC. It is therefore absolutely right, reasonable and responsible for the directors of WWFC to protect the companies fiduciary interests as the directors of any other business would do.
i) It is rumoured that Ashley is already haggling with Gibson to get him to "reel his neck in" over the 'Boro claim - Ashley & Gibson go back a long way so this may well succeed.
j) NO ONE is suing DCFC at this point in time
P.S. I collaborated with/helped Raymond Snoddy at the FT when he uncovered & unravelled the spiders web of companies Maxwell had and used to defraud pretty much everyone but especially Mirror Group pensioners
It reminds me of the freemen movement, where deluded people write in legalese nonsense jargon in the belief that it gives their words some kind of power.
It amazes me that their fans believe this is a witch hunt and all the fault of the EFL.
If they’d submitted their accounts on time, they would have been relegated due to FFP and a points dedcution.
They would also have missed out on the 8M TV money this season.
If anything that blatant cheating has allowed their club to survive for longer. Had they been in L1 now, I doubt they’d exist today.
Why should the tax payer bank roll their HMRC debt?
What about all the local businesses they’ve screwed over?
I really don’t understand why Mel Morris isn’t happy to put a bit more cash in to at least allow them to exist and be sold.
I’d quite happily drop our claim if it meant those small businesses got paid and HMRC got more money.
Whilst I completely disagree with what they’ve done I don’t want this to become our fault and cause issues in the future for our club and fans.
If we were part of the reason for them going out of business, i really would fear for our safety if we ever met them in a game in the future again.
@aloysius said:
I could not agree more with @eric_plant. A lot of you spend your time trawling Twitter and opposition fan boards for anyone saying rude things about Wycombe and then take huge amounts of offence. I worry about your blood pressure, quite frankly, but everyone is allowed a hobby.
I agree with this. People being sneering and superior about other people is what ruins the internet.
@aloysius said:
I could not agree more with @eric_plant. A lot of you spend your time trawling Twitter and opposition fan boards for anyone saying rude things about Wycombe and then take huge amounts of offence. I worry about your blood pressure, quite frankly, but everyone is allowed a hobby.
I agree with this. People being sneering and superior about other people is what ruins the internet.
The irony of the post you've responded too is just unreal
@aloysius said:
I could not agree more with @eric_plant. A lot of you spend your time trawling Twitter and opposition fan boards for anyone saying rude things about Wycombe and then take huge amounts of offence. I worry about your blood pressure, quite frankly, but everyone is allowed a hobby.
I agree with this. People being sneering and superior about other people is what ruins the internet.
The irony of the post you've responded too is just unreal
I'm hoping Rob opens his chequebook and buys us the internet forum that will secure promotion.
one of the interesting points made in relation to this case on the Price of Football podcast today was that Mel Morris could offer to indemnify a purchaser against legal challenge from Middlesbrough and Wycombe. I've always thought that both clubs claims to the administrators were tactical - that they think they might get something from the administrator because of the need to close a deal, even if they wouldn't fancy their chances with the courts.
But it's a fair observation that if Morris felt the same, he could ease the path to a sale by providing the indemnity. Perhaps he doesn't want the grief of further involvement, or perhaps he thinks that Wanderers' and Boro's cases are a bit more arguable than I did.
@our_frank said:
one of the interesting points made in relation to this case on the Price of Football podcast today was that Mel Morris could offer to indemnify a purchaser against legal challenge from Middlesbrough and Wycombe. I've always thought that both clubs claims to the administrators were tactical - that they think they might get something from the administrator because of the need to close a deal, even if they wouldn't fancy their chances with the courts.
But it's a fair observation that if Morris felt the same, he could ease the path to a sale by providing the indemnity. Perhaps he doesn't want the grief of further involvement, or perhaps he thinks that Wanderers' and Boro's cases are a bit more arguable than I did.
I think the case is extremely arguable.
Derby broke the rules by which both parties are governed - check
Derby have been found to have broken those rules by the EFL - check
Various appeals have found in favour of the EFLs viewpoint - check
Mel Morris on record fessing up to using the appeals process to delay the applications of sanctions to the following season - check
Civil cases like this award damages on a regular basis.
I genuinely struggle with this. They are bang to rights. Their defence appears to be that they have been around for a long time and are a big club.
So we get to lose out 'cos we are a smaller club and have not been in the league as long.
Do I want to see Derby go out of business, of course not, same as Macclesfield, Bury etc etc and those fans were not living in a deluded state of denial. This is a club that was systematically cheating and the fans were loving it. Don't act dumb you know when the numbers don't stack up - Rooney? Please. He could have gone to the Premiership, he joined Derby for free and was happy being paid minimal wage? Now it's crocodile tears.
It's a common enough story. Sorry I was caught, not sorry I did the crime.
And if Ashley was serious that **** can afford a few bob extra in the takeover to pay little Wycombe off. Let alone square up HMRC and ever other poor sod that Derby have ripped off. Oh wait, why should he do the proper thing either?
The companies involve play within a league in which agreed rules apply - check
All clubs and club officials undertake that they are subject to the jurisdiction of the league - check
The league has applied its rules in this case and instituted penalties as a result - check
The league has established systems for arbitration which can lead to payment of compensation which have not been used by the company in this case - check
To the extent that Wycombe Wanderers were disadvantage in season 20/21, 23 clubs were disadvantaged each season from 2015 - check
Aside from one, those other clubs appear to have accepted the league's penalty - check
@our_frank - Not wishstanding the clubs' participation in a league, they are both encorporated bodies subject to UK law and the governance of HMRC and Companies House. The EFC and Premier League are not a law unto themselves and their jurisdiction is finite.
If it can be established to what extent other clubs have been disadvantaged in previous seasons then I am sure that is a worthy exercise, but to say that they have been disadvantaged to the extent that WWFC have been disadvantaged is pure guesswork. In any case, those instances are for those other clubs to assess and for them to act upon if they so wish. We just have to deal with the merits of our own suit which is not prejudiced by a failure of other parties to act in the past. Imagine if we lived in a society which said ' this behaviour has been put up with by the victims before so the court is throwing your suit out' - happily that's not UK law.
Comments
Of course he hasn’t. Least of all the fact that our form was among the best in the league after January last season.
Utte gash from aloysius there.
How did we "give up" on the season when we put in almost playoff form late on and almost stayed up?
Oh wait..that mythical 20k a week striker and 1m fee wasn't it.
Benitez sacked by Everton. Maybe Rooney might be off.....
Having spent half my career in insolvency related work I can tell you the following
a) no-one held a gun to MM's or DAFC's head and forced them to spend more than they could afford, this was a choice with obvious consequences if they failed to get to the promised land of the Premier League
b) Having failed to gain promotion the over spending chickens came home to roost which led to a conscious decision to change the amortisation method, take a loan from MDS, revalue the stadium & then sell it to MM. These were all ways to try to deliberatelu muddy the waters and avoid breaching the Profitability & Sustainability rules,
c) No one forced DCFC to not file their accounts with the EFL on time, it was their choice to file them late in an attempt (successful) to ensure points deductions were applied after the season thus staving off relegation for another season
d) It is likely HMRC could not chase (or sue) for some or all of the owing tax earlier due to the various Covid tax holidays and deferrals on offer over the last 18-20 months
e) HMRC are highly unlikely to be prepared to reduce their demand as they are not prepared to create a very expensive precedent amongst football clubs and others
f) our claim in the administration is perfectly reasonable and given they have not thrown it out; it appears the administrators accept it has some degree of foundation and legitimacy (this may or may not be at the behest of the EFL depends on which paper and which conspiracy theory you read)
g) WWFC/RC and the administrators will no doubt negotiate a settlement which I am guessing will likely be in region of £1.5-3m
h) The self admitted actions of others caused a clearly definable loss to WWFC. It is therefore absolutely right, reasonable and responsible for the directors of WWFC to protect the companies fiduciary interests as the directors of any other business would do.
i) It is rumoured that Ashley is already haggling with Gibson to get him to "reel his neck in" over the 'Boro claim - Ashley & Gibson go back a long way so this may well succeed.
j) NO ONE is suing DCFC at this point in time
P.S. I collaborated with/helped Raymond Snoddy at the FT when he uncovered & unravelled the spiders web of companies Maxwell had and used to defraud pretty much everyone but especially Mirror Group pensioners
I sometimes wonder what peoples attitude would be if it were discovered that Derby had somehow managed to play with 12 men last season. Until we see financial doping as the same kind of cheating, it will always be attractive.
I hope Derby don’t go out of business, of course, but I’m glad that we’re not going quietly into the night.
Financial doping always seems to be something people don't worry too much about until it affects their own team.
Take Man City. Everyone knows they're doing some very "clever" things with their accounting, but the media and pundits are more concerned with their lovely footy etc.
Thank you for the most sensible post here
Can anyone with expertise make sense of this?
Thanks for that.
One of them has lumped us in with Morris and labelled us "criminals" and "mercenaries" ?
It reminds me of the freemen movement, where deluded people write in legalese nonsense jargon in the belief that it gives their words some kind of power.
It amazes me that their fans believe this is a witch hunt and all the fault of the EFL.
If they’d submitted their accounts on time, they would have been relegated due to FFP and a points dedcution.
They would also have missed out on the 8M TV money this season.
If anything that blatant cheating has allowed their club to survive for longer. Had they been in L1 now, I doubt they’d exist today.
Why should the tax payer bank roll their HMRC debt?
What about all the local businesses they’ve screwed over?
I really don’t understand why Mel Morris isn’t happy to put a bit more cash in to at least allow them to exist and be sold.
I’d quite happily drop our claim if it meant those small businesses got paid and HMRC got more money.
Whilst I completely disagree with what they’ve done I don’t want this to become our fault and cause issues in the future for our club and fans.
If we were part of the reason for them going out of business, i really would fear for our safety if we ever met them in a game in the future again.
Can't meet them if they don't exist
Borderline sociopathic stuff this
Truly dreadful
No, I know what you mean - but them going out of business (which, just to clarify, I don't want) wouldn't be anything to do with us.
Weren't you the one suggesting a 'Ghislaine Maxwell, she's one of your own' chant?
Ashley is looking to negotiate, according to that fine pillar of investigative journalism.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/17339503/mike-ashley-middlesbrough-compensation-derby-takeover/
I agree with this. People being sneering and superior about other people is what ruins the internet.
The irony of the post you've responded too is just unreal
I'm hoping Rob opens his chequebook and buys us the internet forum that will secure promotion.
I keep telling you Rob has a CHECKBOOK @Wendoverman!
one of the interesting points made in relation to this case on the Price of Football podcast today was that Mel Morris could offer to indemnify a purchaser against legal challenge from Middlesbrough and Wycombe. I've always thought that both clubs claims to the administrators were tactical - that they think they might get something from the administrator because of the need to close a deal, even if they wouldn't fancy their chances with the courts.
But it's a fair observation that if Morris felt the same, he could ease the path to a sale by providing the indemnity. Perhaps he doesn't want the grief of further involvement, or perhaps he thinks that Wanderers' and Boro's cases are a bit more arguable than I did.
I think the case is extremely arguable.
Civil cases like this award damages on a regular basis.
I genuinely struggle with this. They are bang to rights. Their defence appears to be that they have been around for a long time and are a big club.
So we get to lose out 'cos we are a smaller club and have not been in the league as long.
Do I want to see Derby go out of business, of course not, same as Macclesfield, Bury etc etc and those fans were not living in a deluded state of denial. This is a club that was systematically cheating and the fans were loving it. Don't act dumb you know when the numbers don't stack up - Rooney? Please. He could have gone to the Premiership, he joined Derby for free and was happy being paid minimal wage? Now it's crocodile tears.
It's a common enough story. Sorry I was caught, not sorry I did the crime.
And if Ashley was serious that **** can afford a few bob extra in the takeover to pay little Wycombe off. Let alone square up HMRC and ever other poor sod that Derby have ripped off. Oh wait, why should he do the proper thing either?
Wycombe Sociopaths. Neil Harman's next expose?
@Ed_
The companies involve play within a league in which agreed rules apply - check
All clubs and club officials undertake that they are subject to the jurisdiction of the league - check
The league has applied its rules in this case and instituted penalties as a result - check
The league has established systems for arbitration which can lead to payment of compensation which have not been used by the company in this case - check
To the extent that Wycombe Wanderers were disadvantage in season 20/21, 23 clubs were disadvantaged each season from 2015 - check
Aside from one, those other clubs appear to have accepted the league's penalty - check
@our_frank - Not wishstanding the clubs' participation in a league, they are both encorporated bodies subject to UK law and the governance of HMRC and Companies House. The EFC and Premier League are not a law unto themselves and their jurisdiction is finite.
If it can be established to what extent other clubs have been disadvantaged in previous seasons then I am sure that is a worthy exercise, but to say that they have been disadvantaged to the extent that WWFC have been disadvantaged is pure guesswork. In any case, those instances are for those other clubs to assess and for them to act upon if they so wish. We just have to deal with the merits of our own suit which is not prejudiced by a failure of other parties to act in the past. Imagine if we lived in a society which said ' this behaviour has been put up with by the victims before so the court is throwing your suit out' - happily that's not UK law.
https://www.change.org/p/sports-minister-for-england-sports-minister-to-look-into-the-ongoing-situation-between-the-efl-derby-county?recruiter=false&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=psf_combo_share_initial&utm_term=signature_receipt&recruited_by_id=9b7ea770-77a9-11ec-8186-1964d570a5c6&utm_content=fht-32051992-en-gb:0
I see Derby fans are now petitioning the Sports Minister asking him to intervene in the row.
To be fair to Derby, lots of the financial rules don’t really seem to apply to big clubs.