@Raminpeace said:
We have 5 players who are not out of contract this summer. At the moment we may not offer them new contracts. The club has options it could trigger with 2 of the 5 players, we're not allowed to trigger those options.
But a couple of weeks ago you said...
@Raminpeace said:
We have 7 or 8 players out of contract who we can't offer a new deal. 2 more whose contracts run out but the club does have an option to extend for a year. Those 2 options can't be used either.
I'm starting to think you've just been trolling us all along, because 5 players who are not out of contract and 7 or 8 players who are out of contract, means you have a playing squad of just 12 or 13 players. I don't think that's true.
£20M of the MSD debt is personal to MM. That's why he wants that amount for the stadium so he can pay MSD off.
The business plan has been sent to the EFL for agreement.
Nobody has been paid anything yet. That's because, until a preferred buyer had been named and it was known how much he/she would put in Q didn't know what they could offer. Only now can negotiations with creditors be started although Quantuma have had ongoing discussions with HMRC over the past months.
Including the extra £8M HMRC (no idea why that wasn't paid) I estimate the debt at around £72, it was £64M. That's not counting the £20M MSD debt as that's MM's not DCFC's. Will HMRC accept a % ? Seems they will as they've been in talks with Q for months. If there was no leeway, they wouldn't be negotiating.
Mel has stiffed the club big time and in doing so he's stiffed other companies as well as DCFC Ltd (or whatever it's called) and HMRC.
I'd love to see everybody get all they are owed. It won't happen. Never does in insolvency. Creditors either accept as much as can be offered from whatever a new owner can/will pay or a share of what would be left if all assets were liquidated. Of course, they tend to accept the higher figure. It seems CK's offer is higher than the liquidation figure. High enough to avoid -15? That's up to the EFL.
Sorry, have i understood this correctly? The total debt Derby find themselves in is somewhere near 72,000,000 GBP? I'd say starting in L1 on minus 15 is the least of your worries.
You have more faith in the outcome of the fan led inquiry than I do. I think the independent regulator will last until the first deep-pocketed promise maker is stopped from buying a football club.
When and if a plan is actually agreed (Kirchner seemed to indicate that he hadn't submitted it in the right format so has been asked to do it again) then the league and HMRC may have some explaining to do if Derby have been let off anything and set any new precedent. @Raminpeace your write up of the current squad kind of confirms my point that they've let contracts expire rather than sell some players and some of those few under contract are young internationals who should have attracted decent fees. It probably doesn't include your various youth teams either. That whole setup will be expensive. It's not clear why tax payers should be subsidising it. As for players with options that you could take up if this isn't just for resale value it's unlikely you'll want or need to take them up as you won't want or need to pay players anywhere near as much next season so it's difficult to see why you wouldn't start with a cleaner piece of paper.
@floyd said:
Sorry, have i understood this correctly? The total debt Derby find themselves in is somewhere near 72,000,000 GBP? I'd say starting in L1 on minus 15 is the least of your worries.
You have more faith in the outcome of the fan led inquiry than I do. I think the independent regulator will last until the first deep-pocketed promise maker is stopped from buying a football club.
They won’t even get to next season. They have no ground, no players to sell, bar 4/5, no training ground and 72m of debt.
@floyd said:
Sorry, have i understood this correctly? The total debt Derby find themselves in is somewhere near 72,000,000 GBP? I'd say starting in L1 on minus 15 is the least of your worries.
You have more faith in the outcome of the fan led inquiry than I do. I think the independent regulator will last until the first deep-pocketed promise maker is stopped from buying a football club.
They won’t even get to next season. They have no ground, no players to sell, bar 4/5, no training ground and 72m of debt.
@floyd said:
Sorry, have i understood this correctly? The total debt Derby find themselves in is somewhere near 72,000,000 GBP? I'd say starting in L1 on minus 15 is the least of your worries.
You have more faith in the outcome of the fan led inquiry than I do. I think the independent regulator will last until the first deep-pocketed promise maker is stopped from buying a football club.
They won’t even get to next season. They have no ground, no players to sell, bar 4/5, no training ground and 72m of debt.
They’re gone……
Welcome AFC Derby
There's no way the EFL lets that happen? Remember the day Bury were allowed to slip into oblivion Bolton were allowed to start the season?
Not that being in L1 next season will be the end of their problems, I can see them starting the 23/24 season ground sharing in League 2.
Mel has stiffed the club big time and in doing so he's stiffed other companies as well as DCFC Ltd (or whatever it's called) and HMRC.
MM certainly stiffed everyone else, but I don't see how he stiffed DCFC Ltd. He most certainly ran as a sh!tshow, constantly pumping money into every orifice and the fans loved it while it lasted. But stiffed Derby County? Definitely not.
As for the need for tougher legislation or an independent regulator. There are already rules in place to stop this from happening, and MM & Co. deliberately crawled through every loophole they could find with the fans approval. Nothing will change.
Bluenotes, the club -and by definition Morris- knowingly broke EFL rules thereby making them liable to sanctions. Those sanctions contributed to them being relegated and going into administration. By what yardstick do you contend that he ‘didn’t stiff DCFC’?
There’s a topic on their forum about chants for next season. Some of the posts include ‘our training ground is bigger than this’ for away matches and something along the lines of ‘enjoy it because we’ll be going straight back up’. Firstly, they probably won’t even have their own training ground next season and secondly, they may be enjoying a short stay in L1 but it’s likely it’ll be the trap door that they fall out of as opposed to winning promotion. I’ve never seen so many deluded, entitled fans in my life.
Just a random thought, I've spent pretty much the last 30 years, having two holidays a year in the Med, and other hot spots that are favourites amongst British sunseekers. The kind of resorts I enjoy, are a mecca for the working class, and especially football fans, and regularly enjoy banter with opposing fans from up and down the UK.
But I can honestly say for a club that have a 25,000 to 30,000 fan base. I have rarely ever seen a Rams shirt or spoke to a Derby fan, or even seen any of their memorabilia hanging from bars.
Do Derby fans, ever leave Derby ??
@glasshalffull said:
Bluenotes, the club -and by definition Morris- knowingly broke EFL rules thereby making them liable to sanctions. Those sanctions contributed to them being relegated and going into administration. By what yardstick do you contend that he ‘didn’t stiff DCFC’?
He sunk a lot of money in to Derby, possibly as much as £250 million and all he has is a stadium to show for it. He's asking £20Million for the stadium but owes MSD £20Million.
We all know he was chasing the big dream but he employed the wrong managers and players and now DCFC are paying the price for his errors.
He never planned to stiff DCFC, in fact if anything he's stiffed himself to the tune of 250M and left his reputation in tatters.
Nobody wants to see any club go out of business but at some stage the insane levels of spending need to be checked and reversed. Maybe it's time for the unthinkable to happen.
@ChasHarps said:
Just a random thought, I've spent pretty much the last 30 years, having two holidays a year in the Med, and other hot spots that are favourites amongst British sunseekers. The kind of resorts I enjoy, are a mecca for the working class, and especially football fans, and regularly enjoy banter with opposing fans from up and down the UK.
But I can honestly say for a club that have a 25,000 to 30,000 fan base. I have rarely ever seen a Rams shirt or spoke to a Derby fan, or even seen any of their memorabilia hanging from bars.
Do Derby fans, ever leave Derby ??
I saw one in Lyme Regis once (no, I don't know why I remember this either)
The sheer level of overspend and debt at Derby still staggers me, really. But then I have friends who know Ikechi Anya as he's local to us and he was being paid £40k a week up there. Think he played about 30 games in 4 years due to injury, so maybe it's not so hard to fathom how they got into such a mess. What's more incredible is how the people paying that sort of money could ever be considered businessmen.
@glasshalffull. The people who got stiffed are those that supplied goods and/or services to Derby County and at best will get a fraction of what they are owed.
Derby County and it's fans got a good ride while it lasted, at everyone elses expense. The fact that the wheels have now fallen off that particular bus, and they are now being expected to pay the price does not mean they have been stiffed, it means that they are now getting some of the punishment they deserve.
My feeling is that any club that behaves in the way that Derby County have, should be kicked out of the league.
Also, the frustrating thing is that once the sale is completed all their debt will be wiped out and they will be in a better financial position than most of the League one clubs next season. OK they won't own the stadium and "may" start with a points deduction, but Kircher/Ashley will be in a position to sign up Rooney's 40 players.
I'd imagine that, as with any new business, they will find it hard to open lines of credit. Especially with the local business community they have "stiffed".
Life (rightly) should be very different for a Lg1 Derby. Let's hope they will have learnt lessons show some contrition rather than adopt the "We're so much better than Lg1" mentality of Sunderland/Ipswich etc.
@mooneyman said:
Not sure Ashley would need credit!
While financially that might be true, nearly every business runs with 30/60/90 days to pay creditors. If you have to pay upfront for everything it ought to affect the model.
There is certainly no way I'd supply goods/services to Derby without payment upfront.
Then again, they probably don't want me p***ing in the waste paper bins!
In the office on Pride Park today with everyone in - first time in two years. God almighty, the conversations! Two of my favourite claims.
‘It’s going to be a right laugh visiting all these little grounds, getting on a terrace again and battering most of them’.
‘We’ve cleared the debts and we’ll come straight back up. I’ll be amazed if we’re not Premier League within three seasons’.
The day also included a conversation with 3 DCFC season ticket holders who simply could not get their heads around understand my insistence that, no, they did not NEED a 40 man squad before August.
The only thing most of them were happy with that I could understand is that they’ll have more 3pm Saturday KOs, although I suspect the lure of WRDCFC will be too much for Sky to resist.
@Twizz I agree with you. In the distant past I worked for a company that used credit to grow too quickly, until the bubble burst, and they went into receivership, now called administration. The company was bought, and continued trading.
I have had first hand experience of speaking to suppliers who would only deal with cash up front. It went on for a couple years that way until confidence was regained. It is not an easy way to conduct business.
@arnos_grove said:
In the office on Pride Park today with everyone in - first time in two years. God almighty, the conversations! Two of my favourite claims.
‘It’s going to be a right laugh visiting all these little grounds, getting on a terrace again and battering most of them’.
‘We’ve cleared the debts and we’ll come straight back up. I’ll be amazed if we’re not Premier League within three seasons’.
The day also included a conversation with 3 DCFC season ticket holders who simply could not get their heads around understand my insistence that, no, they did not NEED a 40 man squad before August.
The only thing most of them were happy with that I could understand is that they’ll have more 3pm Saturday KOs, although I suspect the lure of WRDCFC will be too much for Sky to resist.
Looks like Derby's new saviour is effectively blackmailing the council to buy the stadium as they won't deal with Morris, seems at best a little hopeful that the council will be able to conclude that quickly even if they do decide it's worthwhile and viable.
@StrongestTeam said:
Looks like Derby's new saviour is effectively blackmailing the council to buy the stadium as they won't deal with Morris, seems at best a little hopeful that the council will be able to conclude that quickly even if they do decide it's worthwhile and viable.
I just read they're looking to play games at Stoke or Leicester next season to get around the fact they don't own their ground.
@StrongestTeam said:
Looks like Derby's new saviour is effectively blackmailing the council to buy the stadium as they won't deal with Morris, seems at best a little hopeful that the council will be able to conclude that quickly even if they do decide it's worthwhile and viable.
Anything can be done by Councils if you "grease the right palms"!
Putting together a senior squad, U23s and youth outfit is going to be a struggle when your gate receipts are being spent on rent and your revenue from in house advertising and concessions are no longer yours. Where there’s a will there’s a ‘way’ though.
@StrongestTeam said:
Looks like Derby's new saviour is effectively blackmailing the council to buy the stadium as they won't deal with Morris, seems at best a little hopeful that the council will be able to conclude that quickly even if they do decide it's worthwhile and viable.
I just read they're looking to play games at Stoke or Leicester next season to get around the fact they don't own their ground.
Yeah, that seems to be a plan B, not sure how welcome it would be by anyone, getting Morris out of the way is obviously desirable but not sure how likely the council are to ride to the rescue. Thought most councils didn't have a pot to piss in these days.
Comments
But a couple of weeks ago you said...
I'm starting to think you've just been trolling us all along, because 5 players who are not out of contract and 7 or 8 players who are out of contract, means you have a playing squad of just 12 or 13 players. I don't think that's true.
£20M of the MSD debt is personal to MM. That's why he wants that amount for the stadium so he can pay MSD off.
The business plan has been sent to the EFL for agreement.
Nobody has been paid anything yet. That's because, until a preferred buyer had been named and it was known how much he/she would put in Q didn't know what they could offer. Only now can negotiations with creditors be started although Quantuma have had ongoing discussions with HMRC over the past months.
Including the extra £8M HMRC (no idea why that wasn't paid) I estimate the debt at around £72, it was £64M. That's not counting the £20M MSD debt as that's MM's not DCFC's. Will HMRC accept a % ? Seems they will as they've been in talks with Q for months. If there was no leeway, they wouldn't be negotiating.
Mel has stiffed the club big time and in doing so he's stiffed other companies as well as DCFC Ltd (or whatever it's called) and HMRC.
I'd love to see everybody get all they are owed. It won't happen. Never does in insolvency. Creditors either accept as much as can be offered from whatever a new owner can/will pay or a share of what would be left if all assets were liquidated. Of course, they tend to accept the higher figure. It seems CK's offer is higher than the liquidation figure. High enough to avoid -15? That's up to the EFL.
Looks like the new Laws from Parliament based on the results of the fan led inquiry are to be passed soon.... https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/61211255?fbclid=IwAR2hvRWfkmU6MWWy_aw8SZYqXvH-IVtVkxbaVV0N4zJDtTfCEv7edR0UHAg
A right royal mess. Thanks for nowt Mel.
Sorry, have i understood this correctly? The total debt Derby find themselves in is somewhere near 72,000,000 GBP? I'd say starting in L1 on minus 15 is the least of your worries.
You have more faith in the outcome of the fan led inquiry than I do. I think the independent regulator will last until the first deep-pocketed promise maker is stopped from buying a football club.
When and if a plan is actually agreed (Kirchner seemed to indicate that he hadn't submitted it in the right format so has been asked to do it again) then the league and HMRC may have some explaining to do if Derby have been let off anything and set any new precedent. @Raminpeace your write up of the current squad kind of confirms my point that they've let contracts expire rather than sell some players and some of those few under contract are young internationals who should have attracted decent fees. It probably doesn't include your various youth teams either. That whole setup will be expensive. It's not clear why tax payers should be subsidising it. As for players with options that you could take up if this isn't just for resale value it's unlikely you'll want or need to take them up as you won't want or need to pay players anywhere near as much next season so it's difficult to see why you wouldn't start with a cleaner piece of paper.
They won’t even get to next season. They have no ground, no players to sell, bar 4/5, no training ground and 72m of debt.
They’re gone……
Welcome AFC Derby
Let's hope you're wrong eh?
*AFC Wayne Rooney's Derby
There's no way the EFL lets that happen? Remember the day Bury were allowed to slip into oblivion Bolton were allowed to start the season?
Not that being in L1 next season will be the end of their problems, I can see them starting the 23/24 season ground sharing in League 2.
MM certainly stiffed everyone else, but I don't see how he stiffed DCFC Ltd. He most certainly ran as a sh!tshow, constantly pumping money into every orifice and the fans loved it while it lasted. But stiffed Derby County? Definitely not.
As for the need for tougher legislation or an independent regulator. There are already rules in place to stop this from happening, and MM & Co. deliberately crawled through every loophole they could find with the fans approval. Nothing will change.
Bluenotes, the club -and by definition Morris- knowingly broke EFL rules thereby making them liable to sanctions. Those sanctions contributed to them being relegated and going into administration. By what yardstick do you contend that he ‘didn’t stiff DCFC’?
There’s a topic on their forum about chants for next season. Some of the posts include ‘our training ground is bigger than this’ for away matches and something along the lines of ‘enjoy it because we’ll be going straight back up’. Firstly, they probably won’t even have their own training ground next season and secondly, they may be enjoying a short stay in L1 but it’s likely it’ll be the trap door that they fall out of as opposed to winning promotion. I’ve never seen so many deluded, entitled fans in my life.
Just a random thought, I've spent pretty much the last 30 years, having two holidays a year in the Med, and other hot spots that are favourites amongst British sunseekers. The kind of resorts I enjoy, are a mecca for the working class, and especially football fans, and regularly enjoy banter with opposing fans from up and down the UK.
But I can honestly say for a club that have a 25,000 to 30,000 fan base. I have rarely ever seen a Rams shirt or spoke to a Derby fan, or even seen any of their memorabilia hanging from bars.
Do Derby fans, ever leave Derby ??
He sunk a lot of money in to Derby, possibly as much as £250 million and all he has is a stadium to show for it. He's asking £20Million for the stadium but owes MSD £20Million.
We all know he was chasing the big dream but he employed the wrong managers and players and now DCFC are paying the price for his errors.
He never planned to stiff DCFC, in fact if anything he's stiffed himself to the tune of 250M and left his reputation in tatters.
Nobody wants to see any club go out of business but at some stage the insane levels of spending need to be checked and reversed. Maybe it's time for the unthinkable to happen.
I saw one in Lyme Regis once (no, I don't know why I remember this either)
The sheer level of overspend and debt at Derby still staggers me, really. But then I have friends who know Ikechi Anya as he's local to us and he was being paid £40k a week up there. Think he played about 30 games in 4 years due to injury, so maybe it's not so hard to fathom how they got into such a mess. What's more incredible is how the people paying that sort of money could ever be considered businessmen.
In 2018 they had FOURTEEN players earning over £1m a year!
Check you out with your lifestyle
@glasshalffull. The people who got stiffed are those that supplied goods and/or services to Derby County and at best will get a fraction of what they are owed.
Derby County and it's fans got a good ride while it lasted, at everyone elses expense. The fact that the wheels have now fallen off that particular bus, and they are now being expected to pay the price does not mean they have been stiffed, it means that they are now getting some of the punishment they deserve.
My feeling is that any club that behaves in the way that Derby County have, should be kicked out of the league.
POTD @bluenotes.
Also, the frustrating thing is that once the sale is completed all their debt will be wiped out and they will be in a better financial position than most of the League one clubs next season. OK they won't own the stadium and "may" start with a points deduction, but Kircher/Ashley will be in a position to sign up Rooney's 40 players.
I'd imagine that, as with any new business, they will find it hard to open lines of credit. Especially with the local business community they have "stiffed".
Life (rightly) should be very different for a Lg1 Derby. Let's hope they will have learnt lessons show some contrition rather than adopt the "We're so much better than Lg1" mentality of Sunderland/Ipswich etc.
Not sure Ashley would need credit!
While financially that might be true, nearly every business runs with 30/60/90 days to pay creditors. If you have to pay upfront for everything it ought to affect the model.
There is certainly no way I'd supply goods/services to Derby without payment upfront.
Then again, they probably don't want me p***ing in the waste paper bins!
In the office on Pride Park today with everyone in - first time in two years. God almighty, the conversations! Two of my favourite claims.
‘It’s going to be a right laugh visiting all these little grounds, getting on a terrace again and battering most of them’.
‘We’ve cleared the debts and we’ll come straight back up. I’ll be amazed if we’re not Premier League within three seasons’.
The day also included a conversation with 3 DCFC season ticket holders who simply could not get their heads around understand my insistence that, no, they did not NEED a 40 man squad before August.
The only thing most of them were happy with that I could understand is that they’ll have more 3pm Saturday KOs, although I suspect the lure of WRDCFC will be too much for Sky to resist.
@Twizz I agree with you. In the distant past I worked for a company that used credit to grow too quickly, until the bubble burst, and they went into receivership, now called administration. The company was bought, and continued trading.
I have had first hand experience of speaking to suppliers who would only deal with cash up front. It went on for a couple years that way until confidence was regained. It is not an easy way to conduct business.
?
Looks like Derby's new saviour is effectively blackmailing the council to buy the stadium as they won't deal with Morris, seems at best a little hopeful that the council will be able to conclude that quickly even if they do decide it's worthwhile and viable.
I just read they're looking to play games at Stoke or Leicester next season to get around the fact they don't own their ground.
Anything can be done by Councils if you "grease the right palms"!
Putting together a senior squad, U23s and youth outfit is going to be a struggle when your gate receipts are being spent on rent and your revenue from in house advertising and concessions are no longer yours. Where there’s a will there’s a ‘way’ though.
Yeah, that seems to be a plan B, not sure how welcome it would be by anyone, getting Morris out of the way is obviously desirable but not sure how likely the council are to ride to the rescue. Thought most councils didn't have a pot to piss in these days.