@LeedsBlue said:
I'm genuinely shocked that a campaign which began with "we'll be trounced every week but I don't care, I'm gonna love every minute of it because WW are in the fckin' Championship!!!" has turned into "hmmm, not sure I'll bother watching on Saturday, same old sh1te...."
Maybe you Peter Pessimists "can't watch that every week" after all...
Shame on you, and just when your "heroes" need your support more than ever.
I think you might be making the assumption that the same person/people have made both comments. My experience is that those who made the first comment aren't making the second one.
I'm sure @micra can explain for himself but I'm pretty sure he would never have said he didn't care if we lost every week.
The other point on this is about 'supporting our heroes' at the moment. The simple fact is that switching on iFollow is not the same as being at matches live. The players don't get any lift at all from an iFollow viewers stat (do the club know these figures?) but would from a big crowd at Adams Park or a massive away following. We can't support the team as we would like and that us painful.
The continuous flow of games is horrible. No time to recover, train, regroup or even appreciate. It's been a horrible season for me in that that respect. I do actually sometimes dread the next match and only because it comes so quickly and there is no event to go around the matchday.
I can honestly see why some might not watch for a match or two. I've thought about it. I want to be at matches supporting the team. I'm not adding a thing from home
You're right you know @LeedsBlue it is quite amazing how some poster's attitudes have changed on here...and how right they are to gleefully pile in to those feeling some negativity now. When I claim back my full refund and start moaning about 'that Ainsworth not having a clue' or 'this is garbage'...'or right we're going down' feel free to high handedly kick me in the Gasroom bollocks.
I always thought we would go down and expected a few tonkings- we’ve had less of those than I would have guessed. Not go down because our manager, owner, coaches and support staff aren’t good enough or because the players don’t care enough but because, like it or not, to build a team good enough to stay up requires more money than we had (or should have spent). I firmly believe that if we had begun the season the median budget in the Championship we would have stayed up comfortably this year and with the same budget and a year for the club to learn and adapt, been playoff contenders next season. We punch well above our weight in terms of attitude, character, organisation, desire, community spirit and decency. That is why I love the club so much and it is why we went from Torquay to the Championship.
But we don’t have that money yet. Whether we will one day through some yo-yoing I don’t know. I think RC thinks so and I think Gaz believes him. I’m willing to believe in them.
So I’ll watch on Saturday and every other game and remain hopeful of a win or a moment to savour (Mehmeti rounding three players and finding the top corner, JJ set piece stunner, Uche 35 yard thunderbolt). Next season Her Indoors and I will be back in the Frank Adams and expecting to be well up the top of the table all season long.
Horgan's best game this season was probably against England. He’s one of the few who’s good enough for this level. Perhaps someone who needs a better team around him to shine.
I will be watching on Saturday and every other game this season.
I was disappointed last night less by the result and more by the performance. I had hoped we would play like we did against Norwich or like we did in the reverse fixture against Watford. But we sort of did neither and too many players had off days.
There were times when the lack of cohesion, understanding and communication were farcical such as when Horgan and Uche went for the same ball, won it and both chased after it only to get in each others way and lose possession to the opposition. Our passing & crossing was generally woeful last night with too many passes under hit or just hopeful hoofs and too many crosses over hit. There were also too many times when players (of both sides) threw themselves to the floor, I would rather our guys stayed on their feet as far as possible and trusted the officials would get it right; the crying wolf often ends up meaning the ref doesnt give the one he should as he has been convinced we are trying to con him.
There are games where we have played really well and looked a decent mid to bottom half Championship side and then there are the games where we looked either clueless or shattered, sadly there have been a few more of the latter than the former.
It is too trite to excuse the tiredness by saying the schedule is grueling, it is the same for everyone yet other teams are not looking as knackered as we are; so maybe our preparation isnt as good, or our training is over arduous (hence all the absences through injury like Muskwe) or the enforced covid break was more far reaching then we have been told.
I hope the management and coaches can lift the squad, get them rested and patched up and choose a team to fit the tactic that has given us the best likelihood of a result, namely 4-1-4-1.
I love the Gasroom, it's one of the best, if not "the" best, fans forum. Good debate allowed, some great tangents and generally always done with a general respect for other posters.
Watford were very good last night and on reflection the way they played perhaps nullified us rather than us being below standard. They just didn't give us a sniff really except for the Wheeler offside goal and we really struggled to contain them.
Ainsworth really tinkered with the players last night and it led to us looking a little bereft of ideas. The centre mid triangle of Knight, Wheeler and Mehmeti has been majestic. We really missed the latter two in their positions yesterday.
If Gape starts he needs to be the midfielder to screen the back four and Knight needs to push into the Wheeler role. I'm not sure if Horgan was ineffective due to the opposition, himself or the fact Gape is not a great passer. Probably a combination of all three. I also would have had Curtis & Nhamdi the other way around.
The severe lack of pace on our left side of defence when Tafa and JJ play was really exposed last night, however not many teams have exposed those two regularly in a a game. Having said that Sarr was signed for £30M and they won't play against his quality again this season.
Kashket was offside, as signalled by the lino and ref before he was punched by the keeper. Not sure they can award a pen after the offside but they could give a yellow card to the keeper.
Kashket does not fit into our best system (4-5-1) and is really not good enough at this level (4 goals in 26 games, 18 starts and 8 sub appearances. Many of our other players are also not quite good enough). In order for us to compete our "best finisher" needs to convert a high amount of chances. He had two extremely good chances (based on Championship level strikers, not necessarily his capability) against Norwich and fluffed both horribly. The first was the lob which went miles over and the second the half volley just inside the area on the turn.
When opposition players have had those sorts of chances against us, they have more often than not put them away. I think as he is so poor in the air, quite weak defensively and generally has to play in a front two then for me he needs to put more of those chances away to justify his inclusion. I have no issue him playing in L1 as I think our other players can make up for his weaknesses when we are defending but I don't have the same view of him as a number of other posters this season.
Overall Horgan has been extremely disappointing. He appears to overhit 4 out of 5 crosses, not just yesterday but over the course of the season. When we get so infrequent opportunities at this level he needs to do better. I think he will be excellent at L1 level, when he can get 10-15 crosses in a game as opposed to 3 or 4 now.
We've had a really tough run of games against 3 of the top 5. I think most of us would have taken 3 points from that run. We have four winnable games out of the next 5, let's hope we can get some more points on the board and overhaul Sheff Weds as a minimum. COYB!
I think the players we have might be good enough to have kept us up. Controversial as it is to suggest this but maybe the Championship has been too big a step up for Ainsworth?
@Doob said:
I think the players we have might be good enough to have kept us up. Controversial as it is to suggest this but maybe the Championship has been too big a step up for Ainsworth?
He's gone there. None of this 'play the ball on the floor ' fudging others do.
Part of the reason I want us to play attractive football for the rest of the season is for the good of Gareth's future career. I just can't see any Championship club employing a manager who is seen as playing negative football at this level unless it's perceived as effective, which has clearly not been the case with us this season. They'd be so worried about the backlash from the fans I just don't see anyone taking the risk.
The only way of countering that would be to stick with us, get us up again and next time play attractive football. Or he could short circuit that by having us play the way we did against Huddersfield and Reading for the rest of the season and justifiably say he's grown into the role of a Championship level manager.
For the good of Gareth's career, and our viewing pleasure over the next few months, I hope he goes with the second option.
@Right_in_the_Middle It's true, I didn't do an assessment of the individuals concerned, and it's not a personal attack on anyone in particular. We should all be able to moan from time to time, some moaned last night and i moaned this morning. I just felt there was a sense of "i can't be bothered anymore" that certainly wasn't there at the start of the season, even though the vast majority expected what has come to pass. I accept that there are many discussions to be had about shape, style, personnel, etc - we're allowed not to be happy about everything. Just that one of the absolute basics, for a 'real' fan, is that you stick with it, not just 'wander off' for a bit, towards the end of such an historic season, because it's not quite going to plan. So I was surprised to hear suggestions to that effect.
I agree that not being at the games is massively weird and does have an impact as a supporter. I would say, though, that during the play-offs Gareth mentioned regularly that the team was very aware of the support 'out there' and what a motivating factor it was for them - even though we couldn't be there in person.
@aloysius said:
Part of the reason I want us to play attractive football for the rest of the season is for the good of Gareth's future career. I just can't see any Championship club employing a manager who is seen as playing negative football at this level unless it's perceived as effective, which has clearly not been the case with us this season. They'd be so worried about the backlash from the fans I just don't see anyone taking the risk.
The only way of countering that would be to stick with us, get us up again and next time play attractive football. Or he could short circuit that by having us play the way we did against Huddersfield and Reading for the rest of the season and justifiably say he's grown into the role of a Championship level manager.
For the good of Gareth's career, and our viewing pleasure over the next few months, I hope he goes with the second option.
It is winning football that keeps managers in their jobs.
I can’t recall many successful managers being sacked because fans didn’t find their style of play attractive.
@aloysius said:
Part of the reason I want us to play attractive football for the rest of the season is for the good of Gareth's future career. I just can't see any Championship club employing a manager who is seen as playing negative football at this level unless it's perceived as effective, which has clearly not been the case with us this season. They'd be so worried about the backlash from the fans I just don't see anyone taking the risk.
The only way of countering that would be to stick with us, get us up again and next time play attractive football. Or he could short circuit that by having us play the way we did against Huddersfield and Reading for the rest of the season and justifiably say he's grown into the role of a Championship level manager.
For the good of Gareth's career, and our viewing pleasure over the next few months, I hope he goes with the second option.
It is winning football that keeps managers in their jobs.
I can’t recall many successful managers being sacked because fans didn’t find their style of play attractive.
I'm glad that the light has shone on Horgan a little bit with others now. I think he's a terrific player and good players do not become bad players overnight but he has simply not delivered week after week. A goal v Brentford and an assist v Preston reserves is about the sum total of all I can remember about him this season. I still think that a 3 man midfield is the reason we are not seeing the best of him and come the end of the season that might influence his feelings as to whether he wants to continue in that role in league 1 or try a team that will play him as a true wide player - which is where I think he plays at his best.
@Doob said:
I think the players we have might be good enough to have kept us up. Controversial as it is to suggest this but maybe the Championship has been too big a step up for Ainsworth?
I am interested to know how many Championship level players you think we have to make your statement. I think very few . I agree with @drcongo even Pep couldn't have kept a top half League 1 team which we are even with the recruitment, in the Championship. Sure Ainsworth has made mistakes but when we return , hopefully with him, he will be more experienced and have a better budget to compete.
@aloysius said:
Part of the reason I want us to play attractive football for the rest of the season is for the good of Gareth's future career. I just can't see any Championship club employing a manager who is seen as playing negative football at this level unless it's perceived as effective, which has clearly not been the case with us this season. They'd be so worried about the backlash from the fans I just don't see anyone taking the risk.
The only way of countering that would be to stick with us, get us up again and next time play attractive football. Or he could short circuit that by having us play the way we did against Huddersfield and Reading for the rest of the season and justifiably say he's grown into the role of a Championship level manager.
For the good of Gareth's career, and our viewing pleasure over the next few months, I hope he goes with the second option.
It is winning football that keeps managers in their jobs.
I can’t recall many successful managers being sacked because fans didn’t find their style of play attractive.
Capello was sacked at Real Madrid after winning the la liga for playing excessively dull football.
@glasshalffull said:
Rob’s task is to make the club sustainable, Gareth’s task is to win games. Unfortunately, the two things aren’t always compatible.
It is frustrating that although we have the players to keep us in this division they are not being allowed to use their potential.The negative tactics which we witness most of the time do not permit freedom to express themselves .Horgan is a good case in point.At international level he seems brilliant,but at Wycombe his skills are negated and he looks ordinary.For goodness sake,GA,release the shackles on these players and then they will be worth watching,even if we lose
Nearly all of Horgan's career has been spent playing in Scottish and Irish leagues which are not Championship standard. There is therefor no logical reason why, at the age of 28, he would suddenly become a good Championsip player
It is frustrating that although we have the players to keep us in this division they are not being allowed to use their potential.The negative tactics which we witness most of the time do not permit freedom to express themselves .Horgan is a good case in point.At international level he seems brilliant,but at Wycombe his skills are negated and he looks ordinary.For goodness sake,GA,release the shackles on these players and then they will be worth watching,even if we lose
Sorry , just don’t see that we have enough players who can compete at Championship level. If you haven’t got the money to compete at this level you will be relegated no matter who is your manager.
@glasshalffull said:
Rob’s task is to make the club sustainable, Gareth’s task is to win games. Unfortunately, the two things aren’t always compatible.
He wrote a letter to season ticket holders a few weeks ago where he made it very clear that making the club sustainable was very much compatible with winning games
@eric_plant said:
He wrote a letter to season ticket holders a few weeks ago where he made it very clear that making the club sustainable was very much compatible with winning games
I am well aware that he wrote that letter, but I disagree with your interpretation of what he said. I don’t believe he made any direct correlation between his stated aim of sustainability and the affect that would have on results on the pitch.
@Doob said:
I think the players we have might be good enough to have kept us up. Controversial as it is to suggest this but maybe the Championship has been too big a step up for Ainsworth?
Do you think our squad is actually that good? In terms of the championship?
I think we have a number of players who could exist at this level, but in other teams with stronger players around them.
@eric_plant said:
He wrote a letter to season ticket holders a few weeks ago where he made it very clear that making the club sustainable was very much compatible with winning games
I am well aware that he wrote that letter, but I disagree with your interpretation of what he said. I don’t believe he made any direct correlation between his stated aim of sustainability and the affect that would have on results on the pitch.
No, he didn't. That's my point.
He said he expected to stay up (which would involve winning a lot of games).
Therefore, whatever he is doing to make the club sustainable he does not expect that to have an adverse effect on our results on the pitch.
You obviously think that might not be possible, which is fine. I agree with you
Comments
I think you might be making the assumption that the same person/people have made both comments. My experience is that those who made the first comment aren't making the second one.
I'm sure @micra can explain for himself but I'm pretty sure he would never have said he didn't care if we lost every week.
The other point on this is about 'supporting our heroes' at the moment. The simple fact is that switching on iFollow is not the same as being at matches live. The players don't get any lift at all from an iFollow viewers stat (do the club know these figures?) but would from a big crowd at Adams Park or a massive away following. We can't support the team as we would like and that us painful.
The continuous flow of games is horrible. No time to recover, train, regroup or even appreciate. It's been a horrible season for me in that that respect. I do actually sometimes dread the next match and only because it comes so quickly and there is no event to go around the matchday.
I can honestly see why some might not watch for a match or two. I've thought about it. I want to be at matches supporting the team. I'm not adding a thing from home
You're right you know @LeedsBlue it is quite amazing how some poster's attitudes have changed on here...and how right they are to gleefully pile in to those feeling some negativity now. When I claim back my full refund and start moaning about 'that Ainsworth not having a clue' or 'this is garbage'...'or right we're going down' feel free to high handedly kick me in the Gasroom bollocks.
I always thought we would go down and expected a few tonkings- we’ve had less of those than I would have guessed. Not go down because our manager, owner, coaches and support staff aren’t good enough or because the players don’t care enough but because, like it or not, to build a team good enough to stay up requires more money than we had (or should have spent). I firmly believe that if we had begun the season the median budget in the Championship we would have stayed up comfortably this year and with the same budget and a year for the club to learn and adapt, been playoff contenders next season. We punch well above our weight in terms of attitude, character, organisation, desire, community spirit and decency. That is why I love the club so much and it is why we went from Torquay to the Championship.
But we don’t have that money yet. Whether we will one day through some yo-yoing I don’t know. I think RC thinks so and I think Gaz believes him. I’m willing to believe in them.
So I’ll watch on Saturday and every other game and remain hopeful of a win or a moment to savour (Mehmeti rounding three players and finding the top corner, JJ set piece stunner, Uche 35 yard thunderbolt). Next season Her Indoors and I will be back in the Frank Adams and expecting to be well up the top of the table all season long.
COYB
Horgan's best game this season was probably against England. He’s one of the few who’s good enough for this level. Perhaps someone who needs a better team around him to shine.
I will be watching on Saturday and every other game this season.
I was disappointed last night less by the result and more by the performance. I had hoped we would play like we did against Norwich or like we did in the reverse fixture against Watford. But we sort of did neither and too many players had off days.
There were times when the lack of cohesion, understanding and communication were farcical such as when Horgan and Uche went for the same ball, won it and both chased after it only to get in each others way and lose possession to the opposition. Our passing & crossing was generally woeful last night with too many passes under hit or just hopeful hoofs and too many crosses over hit. There were also too many times when players (of both sides) threw themselves to the floor, I would rather our guys stayed on their feet as far as possible and trusted the officials would get it right; the crying wolf often ends up meaning the ref doesnt give the one he should as he has been convinced we are trying to con him.
There are games where we have played really well and looked a decent mid to bottom half Championship side and then there are the games where we looked either clueless or shattered, sadly there have been a few more of the latter than the former.
It is too trite to excuse the tiredness by saying the schedule is grueling, it is the same for everyone yet other teams are not looking as knackered as we are; so maybe our preparation isnt as good, or our training is over arduous (hence all the absences through injury like Muskwe) or the enforced covid break was more far reaching then we have been told.
I hope the management and coaches can lift the squad, get them rested and patched up and choose a team to fit the tactic that has given us the best likelihood of a result, namely 4-1-4-1.
Anyway COYB do us and yourselves proud
I love the Gasroom, it's one of the best, if not "the" best, fans forum. Good debate allowed, some great tangents and generally always done with a general respect for other posters.
Watford were very good last night and on reflection the way they played perhaps nullified us rather than us being below standard. They just didn't give us a sniff really except for the Wheeler offside goal and we really struggled to contain them.
Ainsworth really tinkered with the players last night and it led to us looking a little bereft of ideas. The centre mid triangle of Knight, Wheeler and Mehmeti has been majestic. We really missed the latter two in their positions yesterday.
If Gape starts he needs to be the midfielder to screen the back four and Knight needs to push into the Wheeler role. I'm not sure if Horgan was ineffective due to the opposition, himself or the fact Gape is not a great passer. Probably a combination of all three. I also would have had Curtis & Nhamdi the other way around.
The severe lack of pace on our left side of defence when Tafa and JJ play was really exposed last night, however not many teams have exposed those two regularly in a a game. Having said that Sarr was signed for £30M and they won't play against his quality again this season.
Kashket was offside, as signalled by the lino and ref before he was punched by the keeper. Not sure they can award a pen after the offside but they could give a yellow card to the keeper.
Kashket does not fit into our best system (4-5-1) and is really not good enough at this level (4 goals in 26 games, 18 starts and 8 sub appearances. Many of our other players are also not quite good enough). In order for us to compete our "best finisher" needs to convert a high amount of chances. He had two extremely good chances (based on Championship level strikers, not necessarily his capability) against Norwich and fluffed both horribly. The first was the lob which went miles over and the second the half volley just inside the area on the turn.
When opposition players have had those sorts of chances against us, they have more often than not put them away. I think as he is so poor in the air, quite weak defensively and generally has to play in a front two then for me he needs to put more of those chances away to justify his inclusion. I have no issue him playing in L1 as I think our other players can make up for his weaknesses when we are defending but I don't have the same view of him as a number of other posters this season.
Overall Horgan has been extremely disappointing. He appears to overhit 4 out of 5 crosses, not just yesterday but over the course of the season. When we get so infrequent opportunities at this level he needs to do better. I think he will be excellent at L1 level, when he can get 10-15 crosses in a game as opposed to 3 or 4 now.
We've had a really tough run of games against 3 of the top 5. I think most of us would have taken 3 points from that run. We have four winnable games out of the next 5, let's hope we can get some more points on the board and overhaul Sheff Weds as a minimum. COYB!
I think the players we have might be good enough to have kept us up. Controversial as it is to suggest this but maybe the Championship has been too big a step up for Ainsworth?
He's gone there. None of this 'play the ball on the floor ' fudging others do.
Pep Guardiola wouldn't have fared any better this season with our squad and budget. Though it might have been a little prettier to watch.
Part of the reason I want us to play attractive football for the rest of the season is for the good of Gareth's future career. I just can't see any Championship club employing a manager who is seen as playing negative football at this level unless it's perceived as effective, which has clearly not been the case with us this season. They'd be so worried about the backlash from the fans I just don't see anyone taking the risk.
The only way of countering that would be to stick with us, get us up again and next time play attractive football. Or he could short circuit that by having us play the way we did against Huddersfield and Reading for the rest of the season and justifiably say he's grown into the role of a Championship level manager.
For the good of Gareth's career, and our viewing pleasure over the next few months, I hope he goes with the second option.
@Right_in_the_Middle It's true, I didn't do an assessment of the individuals concerned, and it's not a personal attack on anyone in particular. We should all be able to moan from time to time, some moaned last night and i moaned this morning. I just felt there was a sense of "i can't be bothered anymore" that certainly wasn't there at the start of the season, even though the vast majority expected what has come to pass. I accept that there are many discussions to be had about shape, style, personnel, etc - we're allowed not to be happy about everything. Just that one of the absolute basics, for a 'real' fan, is that you stick with it, not just 'wander off' for a bit, towards the end of such an historic season, because it's not quite going to plan. So I was surprised to hear suggestions to that effect.
I agree that not being at the games is massively weird and does have an impact as a supporter. I would say, though, that during the play-offs Gareth mentioned regularly that the team was very aware of the support 'out there' and what a motivating factor it was for them - even though we couldn't be there in person.
It is winning football that keeps managers in their jobs.
I can’t recall many successful managers being sacked because fans didn’t find their style of play attractive.
I think I made this point
I'm glad that the light has shone on Horgan a little bit with others now. I think he's a terrific player and good players do not become bad players overnight but he has simply not delivered week after week. A goal v Brentford and an assist v Preston reserves is about the sum total of all I can remember about him this season. I still think that a 3 man midfield is the reason we are not seeing the best of him and come the end of the season that might influence his feelings as to whether he wants to continue in that role in league 1 or try a team that will play him as a true wide player - which is where I think he plays at his best.
I am interested to know how many Championship level players you think we have to make your statement. I think very few . I agree with @drcongo even Pep couldn't have kept a top half League 1 team which we are even with the recruitment, in the Championship. Sure Ainsworth has made mistakes but when we return , hopefully with him, he will be more experienced and have a better budget to compete.
If Gareth had the budget to go out and buy more Championship standard, experienced players I am sure we would not be in the bottom three.
Don't let Rob Couhig hear you talking like that
Rob’s task is to make the club sustainable, Gareth’s task is to win games. Unfortunately, the two things aren’t always compatible.
Capello was sacked at Real Madrid after winning the la liga for playing excessively dull football.
Not what he said in his letter
It is frustrating that although we have the players to keep us in this division they are not being allowed to use their potential.The negative tactics which we witness most of the time do not permit freedom to express themselves .Horgan is a good case in point.At international level he seems brilliant,but at Wycombe his skills are negated and he looks ordinary.For goodness sake,GA,release the shackles on these players and then they will be worth watching,even if we lose
Nearly all of Horgan's career has been spent playing in Scottish and Irish leagues which are not Championship standard. There is therefor no logical reason why, at the age of 28, he would suddenly become a good Championsip player
@Hughie said:
Sorry , just don’t see that we have enough players who can compete at Championship level. If you haven’t got the money to compete at this level you will be relegated no matter who is your manager.
I think you’ll find that expectations are slightly higher at Real Madrid.
Please explain?
He wrote a letter to season ticket holders a few weeks ago where he made it very clear that making the club sustainable was very much compatible with winning games
I've got an image in my head of a Louisiana plantation owner scribbling away with a quill pen wearing a funny wig
I am well aware that he wrote that letter, but I disagree with your interpretation of what he said. I don’t believe he made any direct correlation between his stated aim of sustainability and the affect that would have on results on the pitch.
Do you think our squad is actually that good? In terms of the championship?
I think we have a number of players who could exist at this level, but in other teams with stronger players around them.
No, he didn't. That's my point.
He said he expected to stay up (which would involve winning a lot of games).
Therefore, whatever he is doing to make the club sustainable he does not expect that to have an adverse effect on our results on the pitch.
You obviously think that might not be possible, which is fine. I agree with you