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  • edited December 2020

    Thirded.

  • Thirded. As I've said before for the thirteen or so years I've been coming to Adams Park I've heard a lot of stupid things but I am proud that I never heard anything racist from the stand I'm in or around me which is not something I can say for my hometown team...one of the reasons I stopped following Forest away.

  • Sorry @mooneyman I'll fourth instead

  • I might have mentioned this before on here, but I remember being shocked as a child when I first went to a Wycombe game and the crowd were chanting ‘Browny’ at one of our black players. Before I found out his name to much relief.

  • Fifted (?)

    A look on the Millwall forum really is an eye opener.

    If that's a vaguely representative sample of their fans, then I could easily see them not being around much longer because they're simply not going to be allowed fans in the ground due to constant bans.

    If the supporters base is that rotten them unfortunately the club might be beyond saving

  • Top post @railwaysteve. On the pitch, football is a true example of meritocracy - your family friends, old school tie etc. will do little or nothing for you. Unsurprisingly, this results in a healthy number of black players doing the business for clubs across the professional game.

    The fact this is not replicated in many other areas of society is the reason high profile awareness campaigns are valid.

  • Thank you @drcongo, @Manboobs, @mooneyman, @Wendoverman, @Username and @arnos_grove - I am as honoured as when I had a Portakabin named after me at work as a retirement present. My daughter helped me with the post. I must have done something right with her upbringing as she is a Wycombe fan.

    The tweet I put on @MillwalFC, along with tweets from 560 other people:

  • On line Forums tend to become echo chambers with dissenting voices driven away.

    Our world is becoming too fond of symbolism and confrontational defence of those symbols and less willing to compromise and find mutually agreed actions.

    I believe in equality of opportunity for all people regardless of sexual orientation, sex, age, weight or colour of skin (and I am sure I have forgotten some diversities). We are not there yet in many areas.

    I do though recognise that some people have concerns about the black lives matter campaign and all that has gone around it. They may be worried about what they perceive to be violent demonstrations or damage to statues to a society and past Britain they are proud of. They may be worried that a man's career my be ended by a careless misspeaking and misunderstanding of the current acceptable language. They may not understand why its OK in the heat of a game to call an opposition player a fcking cnt but not OK to call them a fcking black cnt. They may be worried at being tarred by being called "racist" when they express such concerns and angry at therefore being silenced. They may be worried about the pace of a change to a society they felt comfortable and safe with.

    I may not agree with many of those concerns but I do recognise them as opinions decent people may validly hold. Abusing those people or shouting them down with accusations of racism will not win their hearts and minds, it just pushes them into the hands of the true racists.

    You will never win over some of the neanderthals on the Millwall terraces but you might win over some of those who have some sympathy with them if you listen to them, understand their concerns, explain your aims and maybe find some compromise with them. There are powerful forces on the other side of the culture wars to us. If we do not fight our side of the battle wisely, I am not convinced we will win. I am not convinced we are at the moment.

  • @Username said:
    Looks like at least 1 Millwall player (Romeo) has handed in a transfer request.

    Although it would be horrendous for their reasonable fans, it would be a strong point if the squad simply downed tools, maybe then real action would be forced.

    Has this been reported anywhere? Only seen the odd unsubstantiated rumour on Twitter.

  • Many valid observations there @DevC "perceptions" being key to all sides of the debate which has been in general eloquently placed on this forum.
    The internet/social media has some downsides and creating " fake news" , (apologies for the Trumpism), is one of them.

  • @chairboyscentral said:

    @Username said:
    Looks like at least 1 Millwall player (Romeo) has handed in a transfer request.

    Although it would be horrendous for their reasonable fans, it would be a strong point if the squad simply downed tools, maybe then real action would be forced.

    Has this been reported anywhere? Only seen the odd unsubstantiated rumour on Twitter.

    Not that I've seen with a quick Google

    The other Millwall players part looks like standard Twitter rumour tbf.

    Would be shocked if Romeo played for them again, the racists have fully turned on him immediately... Shock

  • @Wendoverman said:

    @NewburyWanderer said:

    @Wendoverman said:
    Also in my fifties I know lots of people (and family members) of all ages who are racist but dont think they are racist and get angry if you point out their dislike of people of colour is actually racism. And in many cases this hatred pre-dated them Muslins wanting to blow us up...

    I guess they must have cloth ears then ?

    It could be that they see through the progressive leftwing agenda being imposed upon them, want to rise up against it and just feel.it would be better if people who didnt like it f***ed off back to where they came from. The subtleties of their arguments are sometimes lost on me.

    Sorry @Wendoverman , my "cloth ears" comment was meant to be a feeble pun on your reference to "Muslins".

  • @DevC said:
    On line Forums tend to become echo chambers with dissenting voices driven away.

    Our world is becoming too fond of symbolism and confrontational defence of those symbols and less willing to compromise and find mutually agreed actions.

    I believe in equality of opportunity for all people regardless of sexual orientation, sex, age, weight or colour of skin (and I am sure I have forgotten some diversities). We are not there yet in many areas.

    I do though recognise that some people have concerns about the black lives matter campaign and all that has gone around it. They may be worried about what they perceive to be violent demonstrations or damage to statues to a society and past Britain they are proud of. They may be worried that a man's career my be ended by a careless misspeaking and misunderstanding of the current acceptable language. They may not understand why its OK in the heat of a game to call an opposition player a fcking cnt but not OK to call them a fcking black cnt. They may be worried at being tarred by being called "racist" when they express such concerns and angry at therefore being silenced. They may be worried about the pace of a change to a society they felt comfortable and safe with.

    I may not agree with many of those concerns but I do recognise them as opinions decent people may validly hold. Abusing those people or shouting them down with accusations of racism will not win their hearts and minds, it just pushes them into the hands of the true racists.

    You will never win over some of the neanderthals on the Millwall terraces but you might win over some of those who have some sympathy with them if you listen to them, understand their concerns, explain your aims and maybe find some compromise with them. There are powerful forces on the other side of the culture wars to us. If we do not fight our side of the battle wisely, I am not convinced we will win. I am not convinced we are at the moment.

    Puts it better than I managed.

  • I think i will invite the next person who calls someone a black **** or a p*** in front of me for a nice latte to discuss their worries and concerns about societal changes to establish if my perception of him or her as a racist is valid...if they dont tell me to f*** off of course.> @NewburyWanderer said:

    @Wendoverman said:

    @NewburyWanderer said:

    @Wendoverman said:
    Also in my fifties I know lots of people (and family members) of all ages who are racist but dont think they are racist and get angry if you point out their dislike of people of colour is actually racism. And in many cases this hatred pre-dated them Muslins wanting to blow us up...

    I guess they must have cloth ears then ?

    It could be that they see through the progressive leftwing agenda being imposed upon them, want to rise up against it and just feel.it would be better if people who didnt like it f***ed off back to where they came from. The subtleties of their arguments are sometimes lost on me.

    Sorry @Wendoverman , my "cloth ears" comment was meant to be a feeble pun on your reference to "Muslins".

    I got it too late. Which is not unusual ?

  • edited December 2020

    @DevC (and @HCblue) - I agree that tactics are always important. It is important to show respect empathy and understanding to your ideological opponents. That is what those taking the knee are asking for. There is always a balance to be struck between the feelings of those who are made angry by discrimination and those who have close relationships with those who are being discriminatory.

    Millwall have 3000 season ticket holders for the 2020 / 2021 season and are currently allocating them into two groups of 1500 fans, who are guaranteed alternate games with the remainder of seats going to ballot.
    So the majority of those at the QPR game will not be those who were at the Derby game. Millwall, as a club, have a golden opportunity to support their own black players and show racists are not welcome by banning / not allocating seats to those who show their racism by booing players who take the knee against discrimination.

    It shouldn't be beyond Millwall FC to articulate before the next game that it constitutes indecent behaviour to make your own black players feel unwelcome in their own ground and give decent people in that crowd the opportunity to choose their own behaviour.

  • @DevC said:
    On line Forums tend to become echo chambers with dissenting voices driven away.

    Our world is becoming too fond of symbolism and confrontational defence of those symbols and less willing to compromise and find mutually agreed actions.

    I believe in equality of opportunity for all people regardless of sexual orientation, sex, age, weight or colour of skin (and I am sure I have forgotten some diversities). We are not there yet in many areas.

    I do though recognise that some people have concerns about the black lives matter campaign and all that has gone around it. They may be worried about what they perceive to be violent demonstrations or damage to statues to a society and past Britain they are proud of. They may be worried that a man's career my be ended by a careless misspeaking and misunderstanding of the current acceptable language. They may not understand why its OK in the heat of a game to call an opposition player a fcking cnt but not OK to call them a fcking black cnt. They may be worried at being tarred by being called "racist" when they express such concerns and angry at therefore being silenced. They may be worried about the pace of a change to a society they felt comfortable and safe with.

    I may not agree with many of those concerns but I do recognise them as opinions decent people may validly hold. Abusing those people or shouting them down with accusations of racism will not win their hearts and minds, it just pushes them into the hands of the true racists.

    You will never win over some of the neanderthals on the Millwall terraces but you might win over some of those who have some sympathy with them if you listen to them, understand their concerns, explain your aims and maybe find some compromise with them. There are powerful forces on the other side of the culture wars to us. If we do not fight our side of the battle wisely, I am not convinced we will win. I am not convinced we are at the moment.

    In my opinion, we're at the point now where those on the racist side of the argument are just going to be cut from society if they don't change their views or keep quiet.

    People have had enough of waiting for action on equality, and the excuse of preventing change because Bob might not realise he's racist but is has worn thin.

    Yes there will be some people who are unfairly pinned, but that's far less damaging for far less people than carrying on accepting the systematic racism throughout society.

    Let's be honest, the people who get in trouble for saying the wrong thing "innocently" repeatedly are usually either outright racists being snide and then wailing when they're caught, or people who are so far behind the times with what's acceptable they don't care - even if they don't think they are being offensive.

    How many people do you know of who have racist views? How many would describe themselves as racist? I'm guessing the numbers are vastly different, but for a fair section of people they're going to soon find out their views are unacceptable, even if they don't see it.

    This is going to come to a massive head in the near future

  • I'm afraid he lost me at the same person simultaneously not understanding why it's wrong to shout "you fking black ct" whilst also being dismayed at how quickly society is changing

    Not nearly quickly enough, which of course is the whole point of the gesture, and indeed BLM

  • (I've no idea how that bold type happened)

  • The players explained pre-match what they were going to do and why...they still got booed...after the match one of their players who expresses dismay is racially abused. As well as the reactions of some fans on twitter, one of their fans comes on here to sadly make it clear its a regular and disgusting part of the culture of the club. A club that may well be seriously undermined financially by their behaviour. Other clubs call it out and a club who had stopped taking the knee is going to do it at their next game at Millwall in support . All intellectualising of perceptions aside, and the danger of branding someone a racist for behaving like one by accident for me it is clear the events on Saturday were racist in origins.

  • @eric_plant said:
    I'm afraid he lost me at the same person simultaneously not understanding why it's wrong to shout "you fking black ct" whilst also being dismayed at how quickly society is changing

    Not nearly quickly enough, which of course is the whole point of the gesture, and indeed BLM

    Exactly

    How do people on the side of the fence not realise that the protests are exactly because people and society hasn't changed sufficiently quickly.

    If your views are outdated (if you prefer that word to racist) then you're the problem. (General you, not you, Eric, I'm not posh enough to use "ones views")

  • @DevC said:

    I do though recognise that some people have concerns about the black lives matter campaign and all that has gone around it. They may be worried about what they perceive to be violent demonstrations or damage to statues to a society and past Britain they are proud of. They may be worried that a man's career my be ended by a careless misspeaking and misunderstanding of the current acceptable language. They may not understand why its OK in the heat of a game to call an opposition player a fcking cnt but not OK to call them a fcking black cnt. They may be worried at being tarred by being called "racist" when they express such concerns and angry at therefore being silenced. They may be worried about the pace of a change to a society they felt comfortable and safe with.

    I may not agree with many of those concerns but I do recognise them as opinions decent people may validly hold. Abusing those people or shouting them down with accusations of racism will not win their hearts and minds, it just pushes them into the hands of the true racists.

    >

    None of the above are genuine passable reasons anymore for showing open disdain towards footballers (humans, if you will) making a stand against racial prejudice by making a commonly recognised anti-racist gesture. To sympathise with these sentiments in 2020 is to suggest there is some validity to those opposing racial equality. No matter what angle they're coming at it from, there is no validity in this at all.

    The concerns about a changing world, caring more about statues than ethnic minorities, a loss of identity etc etc are all just jingoistic terms exploited by politicians and certain publications of a particular ideological creed who want to radicalise anyone they can to oppose equality.

    Have minorities ever really been afforded the same benefit of the doubt by those who seem so upset by footballers kneeling for 10 seconds than the Millwall Supporters statement and other such ludicrous comments on Twitter etc seem to be asking for? I somehow doubt it.

  • If you put things between asterisks the text becomes italics, or double asterisks it becomes bold.

  • I work for a large (40000+) organisation, which is woefully unrepresented by BAME (and female) employees higher up the ladder.

    Despite having a fairly progressive agenda to change things, progress is relatively slow.

    One of the benefits that came out of the BLM movement and debate in the summer is that my BAME colleagues throughout the industry felt empowered to speak out about their everyday experiences.

    It has since been accepted at higher management levels that there had been a complacency that institutional racism had been ‘defeated’.

    BLM opened their eyes to the injustices some people regularly experienced in applying for promotions, etc due to the colour of their skin.

    A long long way to go but our complacency had become complicit in people being unfairly treated.

    That for me is sufficient to continue supporting any gestures that help BAME people feel less isolated.

  • I had a go at reasoning with a couple of tweeters who insisted on giving me their views on this (very much from the point of taking the knee needing to stop). One ended up blocking me when I mentioned poppies being worn on shirts (‘You don’t go there. Lowest of the low’), the other called me a fucking clown (fair enough, but a bit rude nonetheless).

    I’m not sure they can be won round in all honesty. Even when you try to suck it up and explain your position, the hostility is so extreme.

  • I think a number of points that @DevC has made above are valid. For example...
    "They may be worried that a man's career my be ended by a careless misspeaking and misunderstanding of the current acceptable language."
    Some people, especially those from an older generation, may find it difficult to keep up with what is currently acceptable language. They may wonder why it's no longer acceptable to refer to "coloured people", but more acceptable to refer to "people of colour". When they were children, they may have been taught that the former term was correct and polite. I was certainly told that. In no way does the use of such language on its own mean that those people are necessarily racist, which is what seems to be generally assumed these days.
    And on a loosely related subject, I believe that anyone is just as entitled to be offended by the use of the words f--k and c--t (for example) in print and on the internet, as by the use of racist language.

  • edited December 2020

    @NewburyWanderer said:
    I think a number of points that @DevC has made above are valid. For example...
    "They may be worried that a man's career my be ended by a careless misspeaking and misunderstanding of the current acceptable language."
    Some people, especially those from an older generation, may find it difficult to keep up with what is currently acceptable language. They may wonder why it's no longer acceptable to refer to "coloured people", but more acceptable to refer to "people of colour". When they were children, they may have been taught that the former term was correct and polite. I was certainly told that. In no way does the use of such language on its own mean that those people are necessarily racist, which is what seems to be generally assumed these days.
    And on a loosely related subject, I believe that anyone is just as entitled to be offended by the use of the words f--k and c--t (for example) in print and on the internet, as by the use of racist language.

    In reality, unless your job is to set the example (see Greg Clarke) the misspeak fear is another distraction, certainly around words which have changed relatively recently. I've said the wrong thing even as a twenty something, then I've been told, I've apologized and not done it again and moved on and learnt. Racists don't want to do that.

    If you're so far out of touch that you say something that wasn't acceptable 10 years ago then you're probably a liability to an employer either way.

    The people that parrot that line are worried because they won't be able to continue spouting their rubbish and getting away with it, so they muddy the waters.

  • Also, keeping with the changing times has, and always will be a part of being in a society.

  • @arnos_grove said:
    I had a go at reasoning with a couple of tweeters who insisted on giving me their views on this (very much from the point of taking the knee needing to stop). One ended up blocking me when I mentioned poppies being worn on shirts (‘You don’t go there. Lowest of the low’), the other called me a fucking clown (fair enough, but a bit rude nonetheless).

    I’m not sure they can be won round in all honesty. Even when you try to suck it up and explain your position, the hostility is so extreme.

    Unfortunately this is exactly what I've found almost universally.

    How do you educate someone with the brain capacity of a brick?

    The only way they'll change is by force- when they're cut out of society. We're getting to the point where enough people may have had enough of waiting for people to be educated, and demanding that the bigots are the ones paying the societal price for their views, rather than accepting them as fringe views which belong in the past, but get a free pass just because "they don't know better". People have had enough time, they've just chosen not to engage

  • @Username OK, so do you believe that people who use the outdated terms are, by definition, always racist?

  • edited December 2020

    @NewburyWanderer said:
    @Username OK, so do you believe that people who use the outdated terms are, by definition, always racist?

    Not if they haven't been informed that they are/ why, people aren't going to get the sack if they use say "coloured", it's highlighted, and the person apologizes, takes in that it isn't acceptable and then move on.

    If they have and continue to use them, then yes. "It used to be ok" isn't a valid excuse.

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