Remember their fans' racist chanting against Everton last year? The 'punishment' was a £10,000 fine, which the club said they were disappointed by. What hope is there with that kind of attitude?
Without the benefit of knowing any of the people involved nor their motives nor having witnessed the event, I could not say more.
I recognise my intellectual inferiority and binary thinking @hcblue but something confuses me, earlier you seemed to conclude the Millwall players despite the statement they made were taking the knee due to imposed pressure from above and one of the players has obviously expressed his dismay at the events
but without knowing the people who did it or more information you cannot bring yourself to accept the fans of a club historically renowned for its racism who booed said gesture were being racist?
@chairboyscentral said:
It's absolutely disgusting - but also not surprising when the club themselves try to brush it under the carpet.
It's absolutely disgusting? I'm interested to know what you know about the event, Tom, that the people who wrote this quite carefully considered statement, written with the benefit of conversation with the club and with people directly involved in it, do not.
@chairboyscentral said:
It's absolutely disgusting - but also not surprising when the club themselves try to brush it under the carpet.
It's absolutely disgusting? I'm interested to know what you know about the event, Tom, that the people who wrote this quite carefully considered statement with the benefit of conversation with the club and with people directly involved do not.
Without the benefit of knowing any of the people involved nor their motives nor having witnessed the event, I could not say more.
I recognise my intellectual inferiority and binary thinking @hcblue but something confuses me, earlier you seemed to conclude the Millwall players despite the statement they made were taking the knee due to imposed pressure from above and one of the players has obviously expressed his dismay at the events
but without knowing the people who did it or more information you cannot bring yourself to accept the fans of a club historically renowned for its racism who booed said gesture were being racist?
I reflected on that initial post yesterday and regretted as careless the choice of words when I did so. The intended point was, being as succinct as possible, that if one chooses to communicate by gestures that are capable of being interpreted in a variety of ways, it is not surprising - or, I suggest, unreasonable - if another group elects to make a gesture of its own. I rather approve of the quoted words of Les Ferdinand in the tweet Tom just shared for one valid criticism of the status quo though there are others just as there is a certain amount to be said for it, too. What seems clear to me, and this was the crux of my point, is that "the knee" has become a part of the pre-match ritual without necessarily meaning a very great deal that is clear or agreed upon, except that which was largely agreed before, for example that racism is a bad thing.
@chairboyscentral said:
It's absolutely disgusting - but also not surprising when the club themselves try to brush it under the carpet.
It's absolutely disgusting? I'm interested to know what you know about the event, Tom, that the people who wrote this quite carefully considered statement with the benefit of conversation with the club and with people directly involved do not.
I'm not even going to answer that.
Congratulations, I assume, on your intellectual and moral superiority. I am left to assume again that the criticisms you would make of what was written would, when I read them, be self-evident and unarguable.
But it did mean something to those players according to their pre-match statement which you obviously don't accept as anything but something imposed. Also a sizeable number of people don't seem to' largely agree' that racism is bad do they?...which is why they dont like being reminded.
@Wendoverman said:
But it did mean something to those players according to their pre-match statement which you obviously don't accept as anything but something imposed. Also a sizeable number of people don't seem to' largely agree' that racism is bad do they?...which is why they dont like being reminded.
Did you even read the statement that was just shared?
The idea that some Millwall and Col U fans booed yesterday because of some deep rooted opposition to Marxist ideology is as depressing as it is stupid.
You only need to look at the usual shower of right wing commentators desperate to defend it to tell you everything you need to know.
Whatever you think of players taking a knee before games, all you need to to is keep fucking quiet for 5 seconds. It really isn't too much to ask.
If you boo then I will make a judgment on your motives, and if you defend the booing I will do the same.
It's a bit depressing to be in the year 2020 and having to defend footballers taking a public stand against discrimination and injustice.
The irony is that one of the biggest criticisms of the gesture is that it is futile, it doesn't change anything and ultimately has no meaning. I think what happened yesterday means that all future games where players take the knee give the gesture far greater significance and meaning than it ever did before
@HCblue said:
this was the crux of my point, is that "the knee" has become a part of the pre-match ritual without necessarily meaning a very great deal that is clear or agreed upon, except that which was largely agreed before, for example that racism is a bad thing.
I do understand your argument but don't you think that symbolism has played an important historical role in changing people's minds? Whether it's throwing oneself in front of a horse, or the black power salute at the Olympics, or pride marches - these gestures have a powerful role in changing perceptions and leading to real change?
It's self evident there's still racism in this country. Players taking the knee before the start of the most popular pastime in the UK may not change anything directly, but it keeps the issue of racism at the forefront of people's minds and, hopefully, will encourage some people, not least some Millwall fans, to reflect on their attitudes.
@HCblue said:
this was the crux of my point, is that "the knee" has become a part of the pre-match ritual without necessarily meaning a very great deal that is clear or agreed upon, except that which was largely agreed before, for example that racism is a bad thing.
I do understand your argument but don't you think that symbolism has played an important historical role in changing people's minds? Whether it's throwing oneself in front of a horse, or the black power salute at the Olympics, or pride marches - these gestures have a powerful role in changing perceptions and leading to real change?
It's self evident there's still racism in this country. Players taking the knee before the start of the most popular pastime in the UK may not change anything directly, but it keeps the issue of racism at the forefront of people's minds and, hopefully, will encourage some people, not least some Millwall fans, to reflect on their attitudes.
Yes. The effect of symbolism can be more than symbolic! I'd be interested to know how many people anyone here knows that they think they might fairly categorise as racist to any meaningful degree.
"if one chooses to communicate by gestures that are capable of being interpreted in a variety of ways, it is not surprising - or, I suggest, unreasonable - if another group elects to make a gesture of its own"
And I'd argue that others are free to interpret those gestures, and form their own opinions of the people making the gestures.
"if one chooses to communicate by gestures that are capable of being interpreted in a variety of ways, it is not surprising - or, I suggest, unreasonable - if another group elects to make a gesture of its own"
And I'd argue that others are free to interpret those gestures, and form their own opinions of the people making the gestures.
I know where I stand ...
Well quite. Every gesture invites an interpretation; that is its purpose.
@aloysius said:
Whether it's throwing oneself in front of a horse, or the black power salute at the Olympics, or pride marches - these gestures have a powerful role in changing perceptions and leading to real change?
You could have tried coming up with gestures that @HCblue could get behind.
Isn't the poppy a symbol, honouring all those who died in the two world wars regardless of political leanings, race, religion or colour? As such it would be a very neutral symbol, or have I got that wrong?
@EwanHoosaami said:
Isn't the poppy a symbol, honouring all those who died in the two world wars regardless of political leanings, race, religion or colour? As such it would be a very neutral symbol, or have I got that wrong?
No. You are right. Perhaps they were worried it would offend. I think we can all agree black lives matter and if they want to support that then fine by me but the poppie decision was bizarre.
Could you not just let me know? I tried as you suggested but every link I clicked on wanted me to accept their cookies which I refuse to do, as I'm not tech savvy enough to block their constant advertising for the next 50 years!
@EwanHoosaami said:
Could you not just let me know? I tried as you suggested but every link I clicked on wanted me to accept their cookies which I refuse to do, as I'm not tech savvy enough to block their constant advertising for the next 50 years!
For some people the poppy is the exact opposite of peace - a sign of British repression!
OK, thanks for that. So, what is being said is that everything is down to personal interpretation then, as my understanding was as explained above.
Then by that surely, those Milwall fans that interpret "taking the knee" as supporting a marxist organisation that apparently want to erode family values etc, rightly or wrongly are entitled to express their displeasure? Isn't that what living in a "free"country is partly about.
Before I get slammed for this, I'm not saying I agree with their views only that they are entitled to them as much as you or I.
Yes. The effect of symbolism can be more than symbolic! I'd be interested to know how many people anyone here knows that they think they might fairly categorise as racist to any meaningful degree.
As individuals- some, including family members. I’m 54. I went to a very privileged, and therefore ‘white’ school in Amersham. Many of my peers were racist, and on reflection, I am ashamed to say, so was I, in the assumptions I made about why there were almost no BAME kids in my school, my village, no BAME authors in the literature we studied. I’d like to think we have changed but I know I carry implicit racial biases. I was raised to and educated to.
I’d say every organisation I have worked for has been institutionally racist, including the NHS, my current employer (which still is). In my opinion this country remains structurally racist. As such, symbols which remind us of this carry weight.
@EwanHoosaami said:
OK, thanks for that. So, what is being said is that everything is down to personal interpretation then, as my understanding was as explained above.
Then by that surely, those Milwall fans that interpret "taking the knee" as supporting a marxist organisation that apparently want to erode family values etc, rightly or wrongly are entitled to express their displeasure? Isn't that what living in a "free"country is partly about.
Before I get slammed for this, I'm not saying I agree with their views only that they are entitled to them as much as you or I.
It’s a fair question, but the flip side of that is should we accept flat earth believers as “having an opinion”? Or perhaps more accurately anti-vaxxers, or birthers, or bell curvers? People whose outright stupidity threatens the lives of others.
On the cookies thing, I highly recommend this browser extension: https://ninja-cookie.com and if you want to block malicious spyware like Facebook ever even reaching your browser, then https://nextdns.io is outstanding.
Comments
Remember their fans' racist chanting against Everton last year? The 'punishment' was a £10,000 fine, which the club said they were disappointed by. What hope is there with that kind of attitude?
Definitely agree with you there @chairboyscentral .
Quite surprised at HC Blue's comment just above mine. But then I often find I disagree with him.
But hey it's a free country!
I recognise my intellectual inferiority and binary thinking @hcblue but something confuses me, earlier you seemed to conclude the Millwall players despite the statement they made were taking the knee due to imposed pressure from above and one of the players has obviously expressed his dismay at the events
but without knowing the people who did it or more information you cannot bring yourself to accept the fans of a club historically renowned for its racism who booed said gesture were being racist?
It's absolutely disgusting? I'm interested to know what you know about the event, Tom, that the people who wrote this quite carefully considered statement, written with the benefit of conversation with the club and with people directly involved in it, do not.
I'm not even going to answer that.
It's like a DevC tribute act.
I reflected on that initial post yesterday and regretted as careless the choice of words when I did so. The intended point was, being as succinct as possible, that if one chooses to communicate by gestures that are capable of being interpreted in a variety of ways, it is not surprising - or, I suggest, unreasonable - if another group elects to make a gesture of its own. I rather approve of the quoted words of Les Ferdinand in the tweet Tom just shared for one valid criticism of the status quo though there are others just as there is a certain amount to be said for it, too. What seems clear to me, and this was the crux of my point, is that "the knee" has become a part of the pre-match ritual without necessarily meaning a very great deal that is clear or agreed upon, except that which was largely agreed before, for example that racism is a bad thing.
Congratulations, I assume, on your intellectual and moral superiority. I am left to assume again that the criticisms you would make of what was written would, when I read them, be self-evident and unarguable.
I'd say it's pretty unarguable that defending racism is bad.
I'd say it's pretty clear that the statement specified unracist motivations behind what happened.
But it did mean something to those players according to their pre-match statement which you obviously don't accept as anything but something imposed. Also a sizeable number of people don't seem to' largely agree' that racism is bad do they?...which is why they dont like being reminded.
Did you even read the statement that was just shared?
The idea that some Millwall and Col U fans booed yesterday because of some deep rooted opposition to Marxist ideology is as depressing as it is stupid.
You only need to look at the usual shower of right wing commentators desperate to defend it to tell you everything you need to know.
Whatever you think of players taking a knee before games, all you need to to is keep fucking quiet for 5 seconds. It really isn't too much to ask.
If you boo then I will make a judgment on your motives, and if you defend the booing I will do the same.
It's a bit depressing to be in the year 2020 and having to defend footballers taking a public stand against discrimination and injustice.
The irony is that one of the biggest criticisms of the gesture is that it is futile, it doesn't change anything and ultimately has no meaning. I think what happened yesterday means that all future games where players take the knee give the gesture far greater significance and meaning than it ever did before
I do understand your argument but don't you think that symbolism has played an important historical role in changing people's minds? Whether it's throwing oneself in front of a horse, or the black power salute at the Olympics, or pride marches - these gestures have a powerful role in changing perceptions and leading to real change?
It's self evident there's still racism in this country. Players taking the knee before the start of the most popular pastime in the UK may not change anything directly, but it keeps the issue of racism at the forefront of people's minds and, hopefully, will encourage some people, not least some Millwall fans, to reflect on their attitudes.
Yes. The effect of symbolism can be more than symbolic! I'd be interested to know how many people anyone here knows that they think they might fairly categorise as racist to any meaningful degree.
Quite a lot.
Not that categorising people as racist is helpful.
@HC blue, you wrote
"if one chooses to communicate by gestures that are capable of being interpreted in a variety of ways, it is not surprising - or, I suggest, unreasonable - if another group elects to make a gesture of its own"
And I'd argue that others are free to interpret those gestures, and form their own opinions of the people making the gestures.
I know where I stand ...
Well quite. Every gesture invites an interpretation; that is its purpose.
You could have tried coming up with gestures that @HCblue could get behind.
I do wonder if those who think BLM is an enforced political message think the same about footballers wearing poppies.
That has been a big argument about the poppies. I think that was a cock up.
Isn't the poppy a symbol, honouring all those who died in the two world wars regardless of political leanings, race, religion or colour? As such it would be a very neutral symbol, or have I got that wrong?
Type James Mclean poppy into google and see!
No. You are right. Perhaps they were worried it would offend. I think we can all agree black lives matter and if they want to support that then fine by me but the poppie decision was bizarre.
Could you not just let me know? I tried as you suggested but every link I clicked on wanted me to accept their cookies which I refuse to do, as I'm not tech savvy enough to block their constant advertising for the next 50 years!
For some people the poppy is the exact opposite of peace - a sign of British repression!
OK, thanks for that. So, what is being said is that everything is down to personal interpretation then, as my understanding was as explained above.
Then by that surely, those Milwall fans that interpret "taking the knee" as supporting a marxist organisation that apparently want to erode family values etc, rightly or wrongly are entitled to express their displeasure? Isn't that what living in a "free"country is partly about.
Before I get slammed for this, I'm not saying I agree with their views only that they are entitled to them as much as you or I.
As individuals- some, including family members. I’m 54. I went to a very privileged, and therefore ‘white’ school in Amersham. Many of my peers were racist, and on reflection, I am ashamed to say, so was I, in the assumptions I made about why there were almost no BAME kids in my school, my village, no BAME authors in the literature we studied. I’d like to think we have changed but I know I carry implicit racial biases. I was raised to and educated to.
I’d say every organisation I have worked for has been institutionally racist, including the NHS, my current employer (which still is). In my opinion this country remains structurally racist. As such, symbols which remind us of this carry weight.
It’s a fair question, but the flip side of that is should we accept flat earth believers as “having an opinion”? Or perhaps more accurately anti-vaxxers, or birthers, or bell curvers? People whose outright stupidity threatens the lives of others.
On the cookies thing, I highly recommend this browser extension: https://ninja-cookie.com and if you want to block malicious spyware like Facebook ever even reaching your browser, then https://nextdns.io is outstanding.