@HCblue said:
And I could point out that my grandparents and great aunt, admirable people in very many ways, had an inherent belief that black people were essentially inferior beings and unable to organise their own affairs competently. (Some) older people have been bemoaning declining social standards among the younger generations for hundreds of years. Your social media is your parent's milk bars or Mods and Rockers...
I can't agree about social media since I don't recall any Mods or Rockers driving anyone to suicide as has been the case with Twitter etc.
@Username said:
With respect, I think your point could be better made without recourse to sarcasm.
The behaviour inside grounds is so much better now than it was then mainly because of improved security (CCTV, stewarding etc). Sadly, the problem has moved to town centres and there have been countless examples of this, especially where the national team is concerned.
I'd argue town centres have become far quieter over the last 30-40 years. Increased CCTV, street lighting and a reduction in the number of pubs mean there are less people out drinking.
For instance, I grew up in Thame. Thame has lost a hell of a lot of pubs, and people bemoan the fact that the place is often dead as a doornail on Friday and Saturday nights now. Even in the early 00s it was far busier than it is now, let alone the 80s and 90s.
@OxfordBlue Do you go actually go out at night to witness these "quiet" town centres? There have been more stabbings and muggings reported in the BFP over the last couple of years than I can remember in previous years. In the village I live in, despite there being no pubs left, mindless vandalism seems to have been on the increase.
I'm not saying the world is some kind of idyllic place now we've reached the 21st century.
However, reading something in the paper is hardly the same as witnessing it first hand. Local newspapers aggregate all the bad news and grief in the entire county and deliver it right to your door. It's no wonder people think it goes on all the time.
@OxfordBlue said:
I'd argue town centres have become far quieter over the last 30-40 years. Increased CCTV, street lighting and a reduction in the number of pubs mean there are less people out drinking.
For instance, I grew up in Thame. Thame has lost a hell of a lot of pubs, and people bemoan the fact that the place is often dead as a doornail on Friday and Saturday nights now. Even in the early 00s it was far busier than it is now, let alone the 80s and 90s.
I was referring to how football hooliganism has moved to town centres but I also agree with mooneyman. I grew up in a tough city but it was a lot less intimidating then than it is now with so much obvious drunkeness and aggression. Also, knife and gun crime was virtually unheard of then compared to now.
@mooneyman It's important to remember the difference between causation and correlation. Those figures could just as easily be down to the fact that Theresa May keeps cutting the policing budget and reducing the number of serving officers as to any changing social attitudes. Just as it's possible to correlate Nicholas Cage movies to deaths by drowning in swimming pools.
@drcongo said:
When was the last time an opposition team's fans rampaged through Wycombe town centre smashing stuff up? 20 years ago?
I was talking mainly about some of those who follow England and the bigger Premier League clubs but since you mention it there have been several incidents as recently as this season involving visiting supporters and even some Wycombe fans.
@drcongo said:
There's always been "several incidents" glasshalffull - I presume you never went to either football matches or town centres in the 70s or 80s.
So why suggest that it doesn't happen any more? I never mentioned people 'rampaging' or 'smashing things up', you did. And of course I went to games in the 70's and 80's.
If you read your own question there you can probably see the answer. I mentioned rampaging and smashing things up because that did used to happen a long time ago, but doesn't any more. The fact that you agree that it doesn't happen any more rather defeats your entire argument doesn't it.
No it doesn't, you're talking in riddles. I am making the point that there are many other forms of anti social behaviour other than 'rampaging' and 'smashing things up'. And how can you be certain there haven't been the kind of incidents you refer to in the last 20 years? For instance, I can recall a couple of visits from Millwall that left quite an impression.
Why the sarcasm? And apologies for being pedantic but your grammar needs checking - policemen not policeman and a sentence with a question should end in a question mark.
Some things are better than they used to be some things are not. I think that is life and as we get older more things irritate or alarm us than they woudl have when we were younger. I was brought up on a council estate in the 1970s (which by the early 90s was a drug and gun crime hotspot) and would be out at all hours and not be afraid...and there was just as much fighting and danger...but fewer knives and guns. There is less trouble, caused by fewer people, but that trouble is potentially nastier. If you think littering, vandalism and low level anti-social behaviour by the yoof is any worse now than it was then (when racism, gay bashing, gang fighting and football hooliganism was rife) I would disagree. Read some Stan Barstow or Alan Sillitoe. Admittedly the Krays only killed and tortured their own and I do yearn for the days when a corrupt local beat copper could punch you in the kidneys for kicking your ball on a factory roof and your parents would shake his hand...sigh! All Our Yesterdays, eh?
Yes i was there. In the first match I saw trained Russian fighters picking off defenceless people at random, not just in the city centre but also in the ground. One poor old fella was put in a coma. The reaction of some English supporters may have been irresponsible. The threat from these people existed all over France and parts of Germany.
In the second match against Wales the only incidents I recall are of supporters of both sides enjoying a great atmosphere and a sense of camaraderie as they sought to look after each other in the face of above threat. It seemed this really disappointed some people who had previously attempted to stoke up this match into a war. Similar experience in the other matches.
So that's that example. you say there are countless...
I said that was the most recent example. You shift the blame to the Russians, who have some terrible thugs, but it takes two sides to make a fight. Things have improved with England games abroad thanks to measures taken by the police and the FA but you can’t pretend that everything is alright.
Comments
I can't agree about social media since I don't recall any Mods or Rockers driving anyone to suicide as has been the case with Twitter etc.
You just didn't hear about it.... That's the difference, everything is public now.
The behaviour inside grounds is so much better now than it was then mainly because of improved security (CCTV, stewarding etc). Sadly, the problem has moved to town centres and there have been countless examples of this, especially where the national team is concerned.
I'd argue town centres have become far quieter over the last 30-40 years. Increased CCTV, street lighting and a reduction in the number of pubs mean there are less people out drinking.
For instance, I grew up in Thame. Thame has lost a hell of a lot of pubs, and people bemoan the fact that the place is often dead as a doornail on Friday and Saturday nights now. Even in the early 00s it was far busier than it is now, let alone the 80s and 90s.
@OxfordBlue Do you go actually go out at night to witness these "quiet" town centres? There have been more stabbings and muggings reported in the BFP over the last couple of years than I can remember in previous years. In the village I live in, despite there being no pubs left, mindless vandalism seems to have been on the increase.
Yes I do.
I'm not saying the world is some kind of idyllic place now we've reached the 21st century.
However, reading something in the paper is hardly the same as witnessing it first hand. Local newspapers aggregate all the bad news and grief in the entire county and deliver it right to your door. It's no wonder people think it goes on all the time.
I was referring to how football hooliganism has moved to town centres but I also agree with mooneyman. I grew up in a tough city but it was a lot less intimidating then than it is now with so much obvious drunkeness and aggression. Also, knife and gun crime was virtually unheard of then compared to now.
When was the last time an opposition team's fans rampaged through Wycombe town centre smashing stuff up? 20 years ago?
@OxfordBlue
The crime figures don't appear to support your argument.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40665733
@mooneyman We've already covered this. Crime reporting has changed immeasurably since the 1960s.
@OxfordBlue We will have to agree to disagree. Whilst I felt safe going into Wycombe at night 10-15 years ago, I certainly don't now.
@mooneyman It's important to remember the difference between causation and correlation. Those figures could just as easily be down to the fact that Theresa May keeps cutting the policing budget and reducing the number of serving officers as to any changing social attitudes. Just as it's possible to correlate Nicholas Cage movies to deaths by drowning in swimming pools.
I was talking mainly about some of those who follow England and the bigger Premier League clubs but since you mention it there have been several incidents as recently as this season involving visiting supporters and even some Wycombe fans.
There's always been "several incidents" @glasshalffull - I presume you never went to either football matches or town centres in the 70s or 80s.
If you read your own question there you can probably see the answer. I mentioned rampaging and smashing things up because that did used to happen a long time ago, but doesn't any more. The fact that you agree that it doesn't happen any more rather defeats your entire argument doesn't it.
That's a self fulfilling prophecy for you though, you believe it's now dangerous, so you don't feel safe, regardless of whether it is or isn't
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on whether actual levels of violence, drunkneness and disorder have reduced since the 1960s.
What we can agree on is that glasshalffull could not be a less fitting username.
No it doesn't, you're talking in riddles. I am making the point that there are many other forms of anti social behaviour other than 'rampaging' and 'smashing things up'. And how can you be certain there haven't been the kind of incidents you refer to in the last 20 years? For instance, I can recall a couple of visits from Millwall that left quite an impression.
@glasshalffull I admire your ironic sense of humour. Why else would you choose that as your username rather than @glass90percentempty?
I chose that name to reflect my philosophy towards Wycombe Wanderers rather than any view of crime and disorder.
Don't policeman look so much younger these days too.
Why the sarcasm? And apologies for being pedantic but your grammar needs checking - policemen not policeman and a sentence with a question should end in a question mark.
See below.
Some things are better than they used to be some things are not. I think that is life and as we get older more things irritate or alarm us than they woudl have when we were younger. I was brought up on a council estate in the 1970s (which by the early 90s was a drug and gun crime hotspot) and would be out at all hours and not be afraid...and there was just as much fighting and danger...but fewer knives and guns. There is less trouble, caused by fewer people, but that trouble is potentially nastier. If you think littering, vandalism and low level anti-social behaviour by the yoof is any worse now than it was then (when racism, gay bashing, gang fighting and football hooliganism was rife) I would disagree. Read some Stan Barstow or Alan Sillitoe. Admittedly the Krays only killed and tortured their own and I do yearn for the days when a corrupt local beat copper could punch you in the kidneys for kicking your ball on a factory roof and your parents would shake his hand...sigh! All Our Yesterdays, eh?
@glasshalffull can you give details of these 'countless examples' where 'the national team is concerned?
Did you not see the incidents involving England fans at last year’s European Championships, just to mention the most recent example?
Yes i was there. In the first match I saw trained Russian fighters picking off defenceless people at random, not just in the city centre but also in the ground. One poor old fella was put in a coma. The reaction of some English supporters may have been irresponsible. The threat from these people existed all over France and parts of Germany.
In the second match against Wales the only incidents I recall are of supporters of both sides enjoying a great atmosphere and a sense of camaraderie as they sought to look after each other in the face of above threat. It seemed this really disappointed some people who had previously attempted to stoke up this match into a war. Similar experience in the other matches.
So that's that example. you say there are countless...
fair play, one of the more successful wind-ups in recent times
hats off
I said that was the most recent example. You shift the blame to the Russians, who have some terrible thugs, but it takes two sides to make a fight. Things have improved with England games abroad thanks to measures taken by the police and the FA but you can’t pretend that everything is alright.