@OxfordBlue said:
I bet you the average amount of violent behaviour and drunkenness is lower now than it was when you were a lad, whenever that was.
I must confess that I don’t have the actual statistics but I very much doubt that you are right. I shall do some research whilst ignoring your unnecessary jibe about ‘whenever that was’.
Perhaps not a true measure to assess this claim by recorded crime statistics, but I can't think of a better way to do it.
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/historical-crime-data gives recorded crime numbers since the end of the 19th century. By the figures therein, it looks like the total number of violent crimes against a person in 2014-15, the last year given in the data, was about eight times higher than in 1981. I would imagine there may be some difference in the categorising of some crimes and also that the proclivity to report certain offences may have changed. But, nonetheless, it seems your proposition may not be correct, @OxfordBlue, at least in terms of the violence if not the drunkenness.
As I said, I was simply offering the statistics rather than offering a firm judgement. I also agree, @OxfordBlue, that there are likely a lot of things now reported and recorded as violent crimes that might not have been historically. Nonetheless, that's a hell of an increase!
The following changes were made from 1 April 1998: the change to the Home Office Counting Rules for recorded crime had the effect of increasing the number of crimes counted. Numbers of offences for years before and after this date are therefore not directly comparable.
You also need to look at the National Crime Survey as well as police crime statistics. this captures people's actual experience of crime and is generally considered a much better indicator - much less impacted by changes in police recording and the public's willingness to report.
Good work, @OakwoodExile. I knew there was a reason the figures jumped markedly that year! I see, for example, that common assault became recorded that year where it had not been previously and that it accounted for 150,000 additional crimes. It has to be said, though, that the figures since then have continued to rise...
I am struggling to find a site that shows the historic results of the NCS, except on Wikipedia, which suggests a gradual decline in crime over the past twenty-odd years. Am I wrong to be a little unsure of the methodology that allows the "victim" to categorise actions as crimes?
I’m pretty sure that, say, Liverpool city centre is safer now on a Friday or Saturday night or indeed any other day of the week than it would have been in the 1960s.
@HCblue I think, with genuinely the greatest respect, that actually you are wrong. There's pretty much a consensus that crime, including violent crime, has been declining for years.
This debate has gone off on a bit of a tangent. I never mentioned crime, I simply said that general behaviour and respect for others had deteriorated and I stand by that.
@glasshalffull I would argue that if you are gay, black, Asian (not Muslim obviously) the general behaviour and respect shown to you has improved massively in recent years.
I actually think the youth of today (generalising admittedly) are more tolerant and respectful of their peers than ever before. Maybe not so of us old farts who seem so keen to fuck up their future
@glasshalffull said:
This debate has gone off on a bit of a tangent. I never mentioned crime, I simply said that general behaviour and respect for others had deteriorated and I stand by that.
@glasshalffull said:
This debate has gone off on a bit of a tangent. I never mentioned crime, I simply said that general behaviour and respect for others had deteriorated and I stand by that.
Do you think you might sound exactly like your grandparents, and their grandparents before them, ad infinitum
If standards have been slipping for so long and so consistently as people have bemoaned, we should have hit rock bottom in 2000BC
@bookertease said:
glasshalffull I would argue that if you are gay, black, Asian (not Muslim obviously) the general behaviour and respect shown to you has improved massively in recent years.
I actually think the youth of today (generalising admittedly) are more tolerant and respectful of their peers than ever before. Maybe not so of us old farts who seem so keen to fuck up their future
I assume that’s a reference to Brexit in which case I don’t see the need to politicise the argument.
It's also impossible for anybody who actually thinks about what they're saying not to politicise this argument. This harking back to an imaginary golden age when young'uns showed some respect to their elders and betters is the very essence of a particular brand of right wing nonsense. And yes, it is a brand of right wing nonsense that played a huge part in the Brexit vote.
It's actually all rather well summed up, I often think, by the phrase "Change and decay in all around I see". This is kind of vaguely football-related, since it comes from "Abide with me", the FA Cup final hymn - written by Henry Francis Lyte (1793–1847).
Why the need to be angry and abusive because you don’t agree with a different viewpoint? I think you may have confirmed exactly what I was trying to say.
I'm not in the least bit angry. I don't even think I was being particularly abusive - if "right wing nonsense" is your idea of abuse you must have lived a very sheltered life. And since I'm (a) quite old and (b) have always been at least this abusive, I rather think I prove the contrary point!
@glasshalffull not sure how much difference the use of a capital letter makes in this case, but I'm happy to be corrected.
Just out of interest, what period of history do you aspire to with regards to this time when people had more respect etc? Not a dig, genuinely curious.
@glasshalffull apologies my last sentence previously was meant to be tongue-in-cheek and I was referring more to them being the first generation likely to be worse off than their families - although I personally think Brexit won’t help.
If you want an example of why I disagree with your main premise though, look at the current furore around the inappropriate behaviour of (predominantly male) MPs in the (mainly) past. The argument is that their behaviour was ‘acceptable’ 15 years ago (it never should have been) but not now. So for at least half the population it is obvious that the behaviour and respect shown them now is (generally) much better than it used to be.
@OakwoodExile said:
I'm not in the least bit angry. I don't even think I was being particularly abusive - if "right wing nonsense" is your idea of abuse you must have lived a very sheltered life. And since I'm (a) quite old and (b) have always been at least this abusive, I rather think I prove the contrary point!
glasshalffull apologies my last sentence previously was meant to be tongue-in-cheek and I was referring more to them being the first generation likely to be worse off than their families - although I personally think Brexit won’t help.
If you want an example of why I disagree with your main premise though, look at the current furore around the inappropriate behaviour of (predominantly male) MPs in the (mainly) past. The argument is that their behaviour was ‘acceptable’ 15 years ago (it never should have been) but not now. So for at least half the population it is obvious that the behaviour and respect shown them now is (generally) much better than it used to be.
But there are 2 sides to every argument. I could point out the disgraceful lack of respect to others so prevalent on social media, especially in the football world. And the behaviour of the ‘Brits abroad’ people (mainly the younger element) who continually bring the country into disrepute.
And I could point out that my grandparents and great aunt, admirable people in very many ways, had an inherent belief that black people were essentially inferior beings and unable to organise their own affairs competently. (Some) older people have been bemoaning declining social standards among the younger generations for hundreds of years. Your social media is your parent's milk bars or Mods and Rockers...
Comments
I must confess that I don’t have the actual statistics but I very much doubt that you are right. I shall do some research whilst ignoring your unnecessary jibe about ‘whenever that was’.
Perhaps not a true measure to assess this claim by recorded crime statistics, but I can't think of a better way to do it.
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/historical-crime-data gives recorded crime numbers since the end of the 19th century. By the figures therein, it looks like the total number of violent crimes against a person in 2014-15, the last year given in the data, was about eight times higher than in 1981. I would imagine there may be some difference in the categorising of some crimes and also that the proclivity to report certain offences may have changed. But, nonetheless, it seems your proposition may not be correct, @OxfordBlue, at least in terms of the violence if not the drunkenness.
Thanks for saving me a job before I listen to our game at Accrington. For the record, I was ‘a lad’ in the 1960’s.
I'd argue statistics don't do justice in this instance. Crime is far better reported, document and categorised now than it has ever been before.
As I said, I was simply offering the statistics rather than offering a firm judgement. I also agree, @OxfordBlue, that there are likely a lot of things now reported and recorded as violent crimes that might not have been historically. Nonetheless, that's a hell of an increase!
@HCblue - See Note 59:
The following changes were made from 1 April 1998: the change to the Home Office Counting Rules for recorded crime had the effect of increasing the number of crimes counted. Numbers of offences for years before and after this date are therefore not directly comparable.
You also need to look at the National Crime Survey as well as police crime statistics. this captures people's actual experience of crime and is generally considered a much better indicator - much less impacted by changes in police recording and the public's willingness to report.
Good work, @OakwoodExile. I knew there was a reason the figures jumped markedly that year! I see, for example, that common assault became recorded that year where it had not been previously and that it accounted for 150,000 additional crimes. It has to be said, though, that the figures since then have continued to rise...
I am struggling to find a site that shows the historic results of the NCS, except on Wikipedia, which suggests a gradual decline in crime over the past twenty-odd years. Am I wrong to be a little unsure of the methodology that allows the "victim" to categorise actions as crimes?
I’m pretty sure that, say, Liverpool city centre is safer now on a Friday or Saturday night or indeed any other day of the week than it would have been in the 1960s.
@HCblue I think, with genuinely the greatest respect, that actually you are wrong. There's pretty much a consensus that crime, including violent crime, has been declining for years.
This debate has gone off on a bit of a tangent. I never mentioned crime, I simply said that general behaviour and respect for others had deteriorated and I stand by that.
@glasshalffull I would argue that if you are gay, black, Asian (not Muslim obviously) the general behaviour and respect shown to you has improved massively in recent years.
I actually think the youth of today (generalising admittedly) are more tolerant and respectful of their peers than ever before. Maybe not so of us old farts who seem so keen to fuck up their future
You can stand by it, but you're wrong
Do you think you might sound exactly like your grandparents, and their grandparents before them, ad infinitum
If standards have been slipping for so long and so consistently as people have bemoaned, we should have hit rock bottom in 2000BC
Guys, it’s my personal observation and experience that’s all.
I assume that’s a reference to Brexit in which case I don’t see the need to politicise the argument.
Wait, wasn't it you that brought liberalism into this in the first place?
It’s only politicising the argument if it’s someone else’s politics.
I referred to liberalism with a small ‘l’ as I’m sure you realised.
Sorry I don’t understand what you mean.
It's also impossible for anybody who actually thinks about what they're saying not to politicise this argument. This harking back to an imaginary golden age when young'uns showed some respect to their elders and betters is the very essence of a particular brand of right wing nonsense. And yes, it is a brand of right wing nonsense that played a huge part in the Brexit vote.
It's actually all rather well summed up, I often think, by the phrase "Change and decay in all around I see". This is kind of vaguely football-related, since it comes from "Abide with me", the FA Cup final hymn - written by Henry Francis Lyte (1793–1847).
Why the need to be angry and abusive because you don’t agree with a different viewpoint? I think you may have confirmed exactly what I was trying to say.
I'm not in the least bit angry. I don't even think I was being particularly abusive - if "right wing nonsense" is your idea of abuse you must have lived a very sheltered life. And since I'm (a) quite old and (b) have always been at least this abusive, I rather think I prove the contrary point!
If you interpret any disagreement as angry, abusive or disrespectful then that may well be the source of the problem that you perceive.
@glasshalffull not sure how much difference the use of a capital letter makes in this case, but I'm happy to be corrected.
Just out of interest, what period of history do you aspire to with regards to this time when people had more respect etc? Not a dig, genuinely curious.
A few people have chickened out
@glasshalffull apologies my last sentence previously was meant to be tongue-in-cheek and I was referring more to them being the first generation likely to be worse off than their families - although I personally think Brexit won’t help.
If you want an example of why I disagree with your main premise though, look at the current furore around the inappropriate behaviour of (predominantly male) MPs in the (mainly) past. The argument is that their behaviour was ‘acceptable’ 15 years ago (it never should have been) but not now. So for at least half the population it is obvious that the behaviour and respect shown them now is (generally) much better than it used to be.
‘Anybody who thinks a> @bookertease said:
But there are 2 sides to every argument. I could point out the disgraceful lack of respect to others so prevalent on social media, especially in the football world. And the behaviour of the ‘Brits abroad’ people (mainly the younger element) who continually bring the country into disrepute.
Yh those football fans with their bad words on social media these days are so much worse than football fans in the 70s/80s.
And I could point out that my grandparents and great aunt, admirable people in very many ways, had an inherent belief that black people were essentially inferior beings and unable to organise their own affairs competently. (Some) older people have been bemoaning declining social standards among the younger generations for hundreds of years. Your social media is your parent's milk bars or Mods and Rockers...