Firstly, I am happy to be called the ‘defender of our club’ because it has been such an important and enjoyable part of my life since I saw my first game in 1975. I make no apologies for being an optimist because there are enough negative people in this world. Apart from having a privileged seat in the ground, I am no different to any other fan and have no inside knowledge of the club’s finances, so I was equally alarmed to hear about the extent of our losses. I am a Trust member and was unable to attend Wednesday’s meeting and -like many others -failed to gain access through Zoom. I agree that the situation we find ourselves in is concerning but I believe that the Couhigs are honourable people who deserve to be treated with respect. Since first becoming involved with the club all those years ago I have witnessed criticism of the old committee chaired by Brian Lee, the subsequent board of directors headed by Ivor Beeks and including myself for many years, then the stewardships under Steve Hayes, the Trust and now Rob Couhig. Nothing wrong with criticism, it goes with the territory. Yes, mistakes have been made, but in that time we have risen from the Isthmian League to the Championship so those charged with running the club’s affairs must have got something right. They devoted time, effort and considerable sums of money to keep the club afloat with no reward. There could be tough times ahead but we have come through tougher times than this and I remain optimistic that solutions will be found.
£250k for the access road is the biggest red flag from robs mouth in this entire issue .it shows either he hasn’t done any costings , or his Calculator and knowledge of local groundworks and planning consultants is lacking.
the traffic planning reports for the agrees of the new road and added number of vehicles onto either oxford road or lane end road will come to close to £50k alone .
Even an excavated gravel road for the length required would go close to spending the extra £200k he thinks he can do it for , and that wouldn’t suffice .
a tarmac road to last More than 24 months in the sloping wet conditions will need genuine groundwork and drainage before laying the tarmac .
People posting on one of the Facebook pages who state they were there on Wednesday and they are painting a complete opposite and rosy picture of what is going on. I’m not a member of the trust but would love to see despite all the interactions regarding medical conditions a rerun of the meeting. Failing that would it not be possible for an open meeting to be arranged sometime before Christmas where all fans could attend. If practical Rob to be present as well or at least on line
Forty seven years supporting Wycombe puts you in the category of a ‘very loyal supporter’ Alan. For me the big disappointment with all of this is that heads of agreement were being negotiated prior to any of the Trust members being informed of the ongoing negotiations. The Trust board basically kept this away from the people who appointed them as custodians.
The owners (whoever they are), wanting to own the ground is obvious and I think this whole situation would have come to a head a lot sooner if we hadn’t got ourselves into the Championship.
The whole event on Wednesday evening was a shambles and Rob losing his temper when questioned about the financial logic of building a road out towards West Wycombe, increasing stadium capacity and spending a massive sum on under soil heating that we rarely use, was sad to see.
The bottom line is the Couhigs own the club and can do what they like and the Trust are powerless. He will eventually get ownership of the stadium, if that’s what he wants, as we are unable to challenge any of his plans.
Under the Couhigs stewardship we have slipped back into debt and I am not at all confident that his plans will get us out of that hole.
I’m delighted for @bluntphil that he has been appointed to the position he has, and he’s been doing a brilliant job - but it’s a shame we can’t have him also available to report on things like this with an independent voice and as a Wycombe fan.
The main chant among the younger fans in the terrace seems to consist of a 4 letter word beginning in C and ending in T.
This is aimed at any and everybody on the pitch it seems. One young man during the Morecambe game must have damaged his vocal cords he screamed it so loudly so many times. Unfortunately, this was a game I took my wife to. Safe to say she won't be returning to the terrace.
Up to a point, but granting a 50 year Lease gives him ownership in all but name and the Landlord (us) only has so many rights. It is similar to anyone owning a flat on a long-term lease.
It would be interesting to see the terms of the proposed lease but I doubt the secretive Trust Board will reveal these.
It seems clear Rob could sell the club at any time and any purchaser would have the right to buy out the Trust's interest. Would it be possible for Pete Couhig to form a company and Rob sell the Club to his nephew say for a nominal £1. Pete could then by out the Trust's interest for 25p thus wiping out any influence it has and including representation on the Club Board?
A solid thumbs up from me on this post @glasshalffull. But my nagging problem is that whilst I think Rob is well intentioned I think I am right in thinking that you thought the same about Hayes when I felt the polar opposite. Therefore if I hadn't lived through the Steve Hayes debacle I think I would be more positive about the latest proposal. But I did and so did you. So why different? You would have met both people far more than me and far more than most fans so I value your insight.
I did support Steve Hayes when he took over because I had no reason to doubt his motives and Terry Evans, our former captain whose judgment I respect, spoke highly of him. I know this will be an unpopular opinion but Steve did a lot of good things for the club in the early part of his stewardship. I think he then lost focus when he acquired Wasps and they probably became a bigger priority for him. Like Rob, he was ambitious for our club but became frustrated by the resistance to his plans and I don’t just mean the proposal to build a new stadium. There’s an old saying which sums up the pitfalls of ownership: ‘What’s the quickest way to become a millionaire? Answer: start with £3m then buy a football club!’
You're correct @mooneyman about a new owner buying out the Trusts 25% share of the football club. That is what's going to happen at the point RC sells his share in the football club. I suspect that the reaction from the Trust members to Wednesday's meeting will determine how long that is in the future and the footballs clubs financial state at that time.
The Trust, through FALL owns the ground completely separately and, provided they stand firm on not relinquishing ownership there's nothing RC or any future owner can do - and that's better served by the 50 year lease element of the current proposed deal (although not sure if they have provided provision for the rent to I crease inline with inflation over that time?). Even putting the football club into administration doesn't affect the ownership of Adams Park as things stand. It's for this reason that members mustn't give up on the Trust, even though they may feel the current board has made mistakes.
A strong and vibrant Trust with more younger members is far more likely to maintain ownership of Adams Park than if membership dwindles and a few old farts are left running the show. (Yes, I'd be one of those old farts!).
On Rob Couhig's interview on Wanderers TV, he makes the point that they offered to buy the stadium but that The Trust decided not to share this with its members.
Was this ever communicated to its members? Apologies in advance if they have.
Interview is worth a watch given the Trust board meeting was incomprehensible.
Well done to Big Phil didn't dodge the awkward questions.
Deadline for copy is normally Wednesday day time and remember that only Trust members could attend or access the meeting and as we know even that was a problem for many.
Don't mention the W word @glasshalffull . If Rob finds out there is a homeless rugby club with the potential to drive more revenue at AP we might end up with a new tenant.
Can someone confirm if we will be £3M in debt at the end of this season based on current losses? Or will that bring us down to zero? Do these £6m losses over last two seasons include significant cap ex spend or do we think it's all on wages?
Assuming if we made play-offs it would reduce significantly and if we got promoted we would then potentially dodge a bullet?
If the proposal is voted down and Rob sells the club, is there a risk that the new owner could move away from AP and leave the trust with a stadium and no football team? Who would then be responsible for the stadium and payments? As members of the trust would we have any personal liability. I'm assuming not.
As a L1/L2 team we were completely unsustainable under trust ownership and it looks like we are unsustainable under this ownership now as well. I am horrified that we have gambled after eveything that was promised to be run sustainably. Whatever happens, I suspect both trust ownership and Couhig ownership could end up in administration.
The fact we have zero time to debate, ask questions and understand anything is incredibly frustrating and completely unreasonable.
I'm particularly concerned because as many of us already have acknowledged, they just don't seem to get that we are L2/L1 team and unlikely to have longevity in the Championship without millions being injected.
We cannot predict the future with absolute certainity, however, I do not feel an access road, increased capacity and new stands will keep us in the Championship or even get us anywhere close to sustaining a place in the Championship.
The first part of the plan, isn't completely unreasonable. Reducing to 10% and a slight increase in rent so £130k a year could in theory be used on the team etc. but the rest seems to be insane.
No, but there was a summary of events (admittedly only from RC's POV) on the club website yesterday evening. It wouldn't have taken long to knock up an article highlighting the key points.
I suspect the real reason Pete is out of the succession plan is because he wouldn't want to take on the liabilities / debt and given his career to date, wouldn't necessarily retain the confidence of whoever is loaning Rob the money (I agree with whoever posited it will all mostly come from bank or other loans and he's financed whatever he's spent on the club by loading it up with debt, rather than spending whatever of his own money he has).
Speaking of the $$$s, what evidence is there that the club lost £3m last season - or indeed for any of the financial statements Rob provided? The club's published accounts are sparse on detail, shall we say? Are we really going to trust the pronouncements of a man who thinks he can build a new road in an Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty for c.£250k?
I'd still like to know how much Rob is paying himself, Missy, Pete and sundry others from club funds. Wonder whether Trevor Stroud is getting paid as well...
Comments
What evidence do you have for this?
Firstly, I am happy to be called the ‘defender of our club’ because it has been such an important and enjoyable part of my life since I saw my first game in 1975. I make no apologies for being an optimist because there are enough negative people in this world. Apart from having a privileged seat in the ground, I am no different to any other fan and have no inside knowledge of the club’s finances, so I was equally alarmed to hear about the extent of our losses. I am a Trust member and was unable to attend Wednesday’s meeting and -like many others -failed to gain access through Zoom. I agree that the situation we find ourselves in is concerning but I believe that the Couhigs are honourable people who deserve to be treated with respect. Since first becoming involved with the club all those years ago I have witnessed criticism of the old committee chaired by Brian Lee, the subsequent board of directors headed by Ivor Beeks and including myself for many years, then the stewardships under Steve Hayes, the Trust and now Rob Couhig. Nothing wrong with criticism, it goes with the territory. Yes, mistakes have been made, but in that time we have risen from the Isthmian League to the Championship so those charged with running the club’s affairs must have got something right. They devoted time, effort and considerable sums of money to keep the club afloat with no reward. There could be tough times ahead but we have come through tougher times than this and I remain optimistic that solutions will be found.
My own ears
Even Wikipedia wouldn’t be satisfied with that as evidence. It feels like you’re just on a wind-up to me and you’re certainly no Oily Sailor.
£250k for the access road is the biggest red flag from robs mouth in this entire issue .it shows either he hasn’t done any costings , or his Calculator and knowledge of local groundworks and planning consultants is lacking.
the traffic planning reports for the agrees of the new road and added number of vehicles onto either oxford road or lane end road will come to close to £50k alone .
Even an excavated gravel road for the length required would go close to spending the extra £200k he thinks he can do it for , and that wouldn’t suffice .
a tarmac road to last More than 24 months in the sloping wet conditions will need genuine groundwork and drainage before laying the tarmac .
This is at least £980k worth of work
People posting on one of the Facebook pages who state they were there on Wednesday and they are painting a complete opposite and rosy picture of what is going on. I’m not a member of the trust but would love to see despite all the interactions regarding medical conditions a rerun of the meeting. Failing that would it not be possible for an open meeting to be arranged sometime before Christmas where all fans could attend. If practical Rob to be present as well or at least on line
You would think the BFP would be all over this. Look how much this thread has exploded.
Forty seven years supporting Wycombe puts you in the category of a ‘very loyal supporter’ Alan. For me the big disappointment with all of this is that heads of agreement were being negotiated prior to any of the Trust members being informed of the ongoing negotiations. The Trust board basically kept this away from the people who appointed them as custodians.
The owners (whoever they are), wanting to own the ground is obvious and I think this whole situation would have come to a head a lot sooner if we hadn’t got ourselves into the Championship.
The whole event on Wednesday evening was a shambles and Rob losing his temper when questioned about the financial logic of building a road out towards West Wycombe, increasing stadium capacity and spending a massive sum on under soil heating that we rarely use, was sad to see.
The bottom line is the Couhigs own the club and can do what they like and the Trust are powerless. He will eventually get ownership of the stadium, if that’s what he wants, as we are unable to challenge any of his plans.
Under the Couhigs stewardship we have slipped back into debt and I am not at all confident that his plans will get us out of that hole.
The Trust aren't powerless to stop him buying the stadium, although I fully expect Couhig to make another move in the near future.
I’m delighted for @bluntphil that he has been appointed to the position he has, and he’s been doing a brilliant job - but it’s a shame we can’t have him also available to report on things like this with an independent voice and as a Wycombe fan.
The main chant among the younger fans in the terrace seems to consist of a 4 letter word beginning in C and ending in T.
This is aimed at any and everybody on the pitch it seems. One young man during the Morecambe game must have damaged his vocal cords he screamed it so loudly so many times. Unfortunately, this was a game I took my wife to. Safe to say she won't be returning to the terrace.
Frankly even Up The Wyc would be an improvement.
Up to a point, but granting a 50 year Lease gives him ownership in all but name and the Landlord (us) only has so many rights. It is similar to anyone owning a flat on a long-term lease.
It would be interesting to see the terms of the proposed lease but I doubt the secretive Trust Board will reveal these.
It seems clear Rob could sell the club at any time and any purchaser would have the right to buy out the Trust's interest. Would it be possible for Pete Couhig to form a company and Rob sell the Club to his nephew say for a nominal £1. Pete could then by out the Trust's interest for 25p thus wiping out any influence it has and including representation on the Club Board?
A solid thumbs up from me on this post @glasshalffull. But my nagging problem is that whilst I think Rob is well intentioned I think I am right in thinking that you thought the same about Hayes when I felt the polar opposite. Therefore if I hadn't lived through the Steve Hayes debacle I think I would be more positive about the latest proposal. But I did and so did you. So why different? You would have met both people far more than me and far more than most fans so I value your insight.
I did support Steve Hayes when he took over because I had no reason to doubt his motives and Terry Evans, our former captain whose judgment I respect, spoke highly of him. I know this will be an unpopular opinion but Steve did a lot of good things for the club in the early part of his stewardship. I think he then lost focus when he acquired Wasps and they probably became a bigger priority for him. Like Rob, he was ambitious for our club but became frustrated by the resistance to his plans and I don’t just mean the proposal to build a new stadium. There’s an old saying which sums up the pitfalls of ownership: ‘What’s the quickest way to become a millionaire? Answer: start with £3m then buy a football club!’
You're correct @mooneyman about a new owner buying out the Trusts 25% share of the football club. That is what's going to happen at the point RC sells his share in the football club. I suspect that the reaction from the Trust members to Wednesday's meeting will determine how long that is in the future and the footballs clubs financial state at that time.
The Trust, through FALL owns the ground completely separately and, provided they stand firm on not relinquishing ownership there's nothing RC or any future owner can do - and that's better served by the 50 year lease element of the current proposed deal (although not sure if they have provided provision for the rent to I crease inline with inflation over that time?). Even putting the football club into administration doesn't affect the ownership of Adams Park as things stand. It's for this reason that members mustn't give up on the Trust, even though they may feel the current board has made mistakes.
A strong and vibrant Trust with more younger members is far more likely to maintain ownership of Adams Park than if membership dwindles and a few old farts are left running the show. (Yes, I'd be one of those old farts!).
On Rob Couhig's interview on Wanderers TV, he makes the point that they offered to buy the stadium but that The Trust decided not to share this with its members.
Was this ever communicated to its members? Apologies in advance if they have.
Interview is worth a watch given the Trust board meeting was incomprehensible.
Well done to Big Phil didn't dodge the awkward questions.
If only their four letter word beginning with C and ending with T was Cost
They haven't covered the news whatsoever as far as I can tell
Deadline for copy is normally Wednesday day time and remember that only Trust members could attend or access the meeting and as we know even that was a problem for many.
They have a website...
You're right. It's like the Trust is being asked to pay for it again.
Don't mention the W word @glasshalffull . If Rob finds out there is a homeless rugby club with the potential to drive more revenue at AP we might end up with a new tenant.
That wouldn’t help them to attend the meeting..
Love the precision of 980k. Presumably you've done some costings there, or you'd have just said 1m 😀
I see you've made 6 posts since the meeting. Did you sign up just because of the rage of that? Or did you used to post as someone else?
The lack of BFP coverage is interesting, particularly since most of their online articles seem to come straight from here and the facebook group.
Can someone confirm if we will be £3M in debt at the end of this season based on current losses? Or will that bring us down to zero? Do these £6m losses over last two seasons include significant cap ex spend or do we think it's all on wages?
Assuming if we made play-offs it would reduce significantly and if we got promoted we would then potentially dodge a bullet?
If the proposal is voted down and Rob sells the club, is there a risk that the new owner could move away from AP and leave the trust with a stadium and no football team? Who would then be responsible for the stadium and payments? As members of the trust would we have any personal liability. I'm assuming not.
As a L1/L2 team we were completely unsustainable under trust ownership and it looks like we are unsustainable under this ownership now as well. I am horrified that we have gambled after eveything that was promised to be run sustainably. Whatever happens, I suspect both trust ownership and Couhig ownership could end up in administration.
The fact we have zero time to debate, ask questions and understand anything is incredibly frustrating and completely unreasonable.
I'm particularly concerned because as many of us already have acknowledged, they just don't seem to get that we are L2/L1 team and unlikely to have longevity in the Championship without millions being injected.
We cannot predict the future with absolute certainity, however, I do not feel an access road, increased capacity and new stands will keep us in the Championship or even get us anywhere close to sustaining a place in the Championship.
The first part of the plan, isn't completely unreasonable. Reducing to 10% and a slight increase in rent so £130k a year could in theory be used on the team etc. but the rest seems to be insane.
This would actually involve writing an article.
No, but there was a summary of events (admittedly only from RC's POV) on the club website yesterday evening. It wouldn't have taken long to knock up an article highlighting the key points.
I suspect the real reason Pete is out of the succession plan is because he wouldn't want to take on the liabilities / debt and given his career to date, wouldn't necessarily retain the confidence of whoever is loaning Rob the money (I agree with whoever posited it will all mostly come from bank or other loans and he's financed whatever he's spent on the club by loading it up with debt, rather than spending whatever of his own money he has).
Speaking of the $$$s, what evidence is there that the club lost £3m last season - or indeed for any of the financial statements Rob provided? The club's published accounts are sparse on detail, shall we say? Are we really going to trust the pronouncements of a man who thinks he can build a new road in an Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty for c.£250k?
I'd still like to know how much Rob is paying himself, Missy, Pete and sundry others from club funds. Wonder whether Trevor Stroud is getting paid as well...
I signed up after the meeting having been encouraged to by my partner who is a poster and trust member too .