The ballot was nonsense - there was clearly one right decision and one wrong one, and the Cameron government should have done what they were elected for instead of the weak passing the buck of holding a referendum.
@TheAndyGrahamFanClub there are different, longer queues in European airports for non-EU visitors.
I disagree about the queues. I have whizzed through European airport queues in the past 2 years, and I have had horrid experiences at others. My longest queues have been at LHR when I can go through with what is supposed to be frictionless travel. It's largely a capacity issue IMHO.
At the 2015 election, although Cameron won a majority, UKIP polled 12.6% of the votes, which didn't get them any seats,, but would have given them 83 seats under proportional representation. That, and the growing Eurosceptic wing of the Tory party, meant that he felt he had to put the issue to bed for a generation.
Nobody inside the Westminster bubble believed there was any possibility of a Leave win, and the Civil Service were told not to make any contingency plans for such an outcome. The reality around the country was somewhat different, and but for Farage's ill-advised poster showing queues of immigrants, the winning margin may well have been greater than 52-48.
Cameron was then forced into an embarrassing resignation speech the next morning, and we ended up with the utterly hopeless Theresa May, kowtowing to the EU bureaucrats with begging bowl in hand, and years of dithering and delay instead of getting on with it.
Ah, so they just bought advertising space, you say. But there’s more:
Remember the Tories placing insider bets on the timing of the GE? That moved the betting markets. A lot.
Labour noticed. Pure observation told them the GE was coming before it was announced.
So they bought all the best ad space up.
IMO, is how you get sh!t done. You take in the relevant information, understand what’s going on, and you act decisively.
THATS the sort of people and organisation I want running a country. Not the sort of navel gazing, blame someone else, shift the blame tactics of certain other parties use.
Are labour perfect? HELL no. Are they better than we currently have. I think so.
Not one Tory seat, please. Vote for the biggest threat to the incumbent Tory in your area. They deserve an arse kicking for the constant “party over country” politics they have presided over since brexit.
The two worst places I’ve experienced have been Schipol and LHR. Both down to empty desks. In the case of our Dutch friends there was only one non-EU desk open and many EU desks, but they refused to serve non-EU. I’m guessing there’s a punishment element to this.
The thing is with the rise of the far right in France is that they are making the same mistakes in politics as our parties do. If mainstream parties ignore people they will go extreme.
We all have one vote. You can call these people whatever you like but the net result by ignoring their fears (which are not your fears) they go mainstream. Hence Trump, and now France.
People don’t like to be ignore. People don’t like to be sneered at.
I disagree strongly with the currently increasingly popular notion being put forward simultaneously by outright racists and centrists that you can't deride or ridicule patently racist or flawed viewpoints/ people. That normalises them and shifts then into the acceptable overton window.
That doesn't mean everyone on the right is racist, but to be honest, the people that use that line the most are the right wing racists themselves crying wolf, picking up on an isolated extreme left viewpoint and taking it as "all of the left", or deliberately taking a racism claim out of context to make all racism claims seem invalid.
Ok, but in the context of France they have won on the clear message of French people get priority. Regardless of colour. If you are French you go to the front of the queue. So everyone has branded all their supporters as racist. It is very possible that people are voting that as that’s their BIGGEST concern, not their only concern. So my point is that by dismissing these people’s concern you drive them into the arms of extremist. The centre needs to be listen more dismiss less.
There's a lot of sweeping generalisations in your posts @TheAndyGrahamFanClub - "everyone has branded all their supporters as racist" - which is exactly the thing you seem to be arguing against. Not everyone is branding all their supporters as racists - but the old adage from the referendum probably holds here too - "not everyone who voted leave is a racist, but everyone who is a racist voted leave". Judge me by the company I keep.
I think there is truth in the suggestion that we tar minor stuff with the label racist and then have nowhere to go with major racist stuff. There are those who take extreme positions on both sides. How do I as a moderate leftie change that.
I would like to think of myself as a moderate leftie too. I just think that the rallying cry of ‘immigration bad’ has not been maturely addressed by any party. The Tories have gone righter and labour has not really acknowledged the GENUINE fears about mass unchecked migration that is a global issue. This has left certain voters homeless
The main parties aren't going to address whatever "genuine fears" people may have because they need you to be scared of other people. It has always been that way and it always will be as long as people go around referring to "genuine fears" of others and using phrases like "mass unchecked migration" - something which simply doesn't exist.
I mean, I hate to be one of those "told you so" people, but I posted about this during the last general election cycle. Corbyn was our last chance to drag the Overton window back to the left, we didn't, and here we are - a tory party running full tilt towards far-right extremism and a centre-right labour party too scared of upsetting the far-right.
You probably want your Chancellor to be a bright person educated in Economics to be fair.
the existence of Corbyn made Brexit and Johnson more achievable.
Hopefully before too long we can have a PR system with a credible Left Wing, one or more centre left, one or more centre right and a populist party plus a Green Party so we can vote for what we believe in.
Let's ignore the 3rd person anecdotes of people can't get houses/doctor appointments/dentists due to Somalians (or whoever) getting priority. We all know the reason behind our crumbling infrastructure and it goes back generations. Neither of the main parties have given a credible method of reducing net migration to historical levels. Rwanda - oh please, and a re-branding of Border Force- great. And that matters to a lot of people.
And that is why Reform has gathered support. I doubt if most of their supporters could name another policy they have.
I have a job, I have a house, I have a dentist, I am blessed to live in a lovely area, I am not disaffected. Thousands feel they are.
Yeah, I'm struggling to follow this too. We know that immigrants don't get priority with doctors, houses or dentists, so why should we be pandering to the hate mongers that spread those lies?
Neither of the main parties have given a credible method of reducing net migration to historical levels
Why tho? Why are you so keen on reducing net migration when it's not the cause of any of the problems these Reform Ltd. voters think it is?
1 - This photo is about 2 weeks old now as it was from one of the group games. The only reason it's being picked up online today is because the far right / fascist "Turning Point UK" social media accounts has posted a similar question to yours in an attempt to manufacture some artificial anger from the usual types.
2 - At the time, he did an interview where he was quoted saying his England shirt was in the wash (crap excuse, but who cares)
Comments
The ballot was nonsense - there was clearly one right decision and one wrong one, and the Cameron government should have done what they were elected for instead of the weak passing the buck of holding a referendum.
@TheAndyGrahamFanClub there are different, longer queues in European airports for non-EU visitors.
I disagree about the queues. I have whizzed through European airport queues in the past 2 years, and I have had horrid experiences at others. My longest queues have been at LHR when I can go through with what is supposed to be frictionless travel. It's largely a capacity issue IMHO.
At the 2015 election, although Cameron won a majority, UKIP polled 12.6% of the votes, which didn't get them any seats,, but would have given them 83 seats under proportional representation. That, and the growing Eurosceptic wing of the Tory party, meant that he felt he had to put the issue to bed for a generation.
Nobody inside the Westminster bubble believed there was any possibility of a Leave win, and the Civil Service were told not to make any contingency plans for such an outcome. The reality around the country was somewhat different, and but for Farage's ill-advised poster showing queues of immigrants, the winning margin may well have been greater than 52-48.
Cameron was then forced into an embarrassing resignation speech the next morning, and we ended up with the utterly hopeless Theresa May, kowtowing to the EU bureaucrats with begging bowl in hand, and years of dithering and delay instead of getting on with it.
This will be my only post on the politics thread.
This is what the DailyMail website looks like:
Ah, so they just bought advertising space, you say. But there’s more:
Remember the Tories placing insider bets on the timing of the GE? That moved the betting markets. A lot.
Labour noticed. Pure observation told them the GE was coming before it was announced.
So they bought all the best ad space up.
IMO, is how you get sh!t done. You take in the relevant information, understand what’s going on, and you act decisively.
THATS the sort of people and organisation I want running a country. Not the sort of navel gazing, blame someone else, shift the blame tactics of certain other parties use.
Are labour perfect? HELL no. Are they better than we currently have. I think so.
Not one Tory seat, please. Vote for the biggest threat to the incumbent Tory in your area. They deserve an arse kicking for the constant “party over country” politics they have presided over since brexit.
That’s true, but it’s also true that post-Brexit we have to use non-EU often longer queues.
The French may well be doing that soon.
The two worst places I’ve experienced have been Schipol and LHR. Both down to empty desks. In the case of our Dutch friends there was only one non-EU desk open and many EU desks, but they refused to serve non-EU. I’m guessing there’s a punishment element to this.
France looks to be going 'far right' but it's OK, 'The Markets' will do to Le Pen what they did to Liz Truss.
The thing is with the rise of the far right in France is that they are making the same mistakes in politics as our parties do. If mainstream parties ignore people they will go extreme.
We all have one vote. You can call these people whatever you like but the net result by ignoring their fears (which are not your fears) they go mainstream. Hence Trump, and now France.
People don’t like to be ignore. People don’t like to be sneered at.
If you can't sneer at racists what can you do.
By lumping everyone into woke lefties or racists I guess we see what the core issue is.
Who said everyone?
A white t-shirt. Not an England shirt. How do we deconstruct this message?
I disagree strongly with the currently increasingly popular notion being put forward simultaneously by outright racists and centrists that you can't deride or ridicule patently racist or flawed viewpoints/ people. That normalises them and shifts then into the acceptable overton window.
That doesn't mean everyone on the right is racist, but to be honest, the people that use that line the most are the right wing racists themselves crying wolf, picking up on an isolated extreme left viewpoint and taking it as "all of the left", or deliberately taking a racism claim out of context to make all racism claims seem invalid.
Ok, but in the context of France they have won on the clear message of French people get priority. Regardless of colour. If you are French you go to the front of the queue. So everyone has branded all their supporters as racist. It is very possible that people are voting that as that’s their BIGGEST concern, not their only concern. So my point is that by dismissing these people’s concern you drive them into the arms of extremist. The centre needs to be listen more dismiss less.
There's a lot of sweeping generalisations in your posts @TheAndyGrahamFanClub - "everyone has branded all their supporters as racist" - which is exactly the thing you seem to be arguing against. Not everyone is branding all their supporters as racists - but the old adage from the referendum probably holds here too - "not everyone who voted leave is a racist, but everyone who is a racist voted leave". Judge me by the company I keep.
Admittedly I haven’t spoken to everyone. Just a read through social media today would suggest that the consensus is that this is the case.
But as a society we haven’t learned from the Brexit vote. Label and ignore at our peril.
So what do you suggest.
I think there is truth in the suggestion that we tar minor stuff with the label racist and then have nowhere to go with major racist stuff. There are those who take extreme positions on both sides. How do I as a moderate leftie change that.
I would like to think of myself as a moderate leftie too. I just think that the rallying cry of ‘immigration bad’ has not been maturely addressed by any party. The Tories have gone righter and labour has not really acknowledged the GENUINE fears about mass unchecked migration that is a global issue. This has left certain voters homeless
Ok but what are the GENUINE fears that you think have not been addressed?
The main parties aren't going to address whatever "genuine fears" people may have because they need you to be scared of other people. It has always been that way and it always will be as long as people go around referring to "genuine fears" of others and using phrases like "mass unchecked migration" - something which simply doesn't exist.
I mean, I hate to be one of those "told you so" people, but I posted about this during the last general election cycle. Corbyn was our last chance to drag the Overton window back to the left, we didn't, and here we are - a tory party running full tilt towards far-right extremism and a centre-right labour party too scared of upsetting the far-right.
On Friday a bloke who studied PPE at Oxford will be replaced as Chancellor of the Exchequer by a woman who studied PPE at Oxford.
Big changes on the way!
You probably want your Chancellor to be a bright person educated in Economics to be fair.
the existence of Corbyn made Brexit and Johnson more achievable.
Hopefully before too long we can have a PR system with a credible Left Wing, one or more centre left, one or more centre right and a populist party plus a Green Party so we can vote for what we believe in.
A degree in PPE is like an A Level in General Studies.
Let's ignore the 3rd person anecdotes of people can't get houses/doctor appointments/dentists due to Somalians (or whoever) getting priority. We all know the reason behind our crumbling infrastructure and it goes back generations. Neither of the main parties have given a credible method of reducing net migration to historical levels. Rwanda - oh please, and a re-branding of Border Force- great. And that matters to a lot of people.
And that is why Reform has gathered support. I doubt if most of their supporters could name another policy they have.
I have a job, I have a house, I have a dentist, I am blessed to live in a lovely area, I am not disaffected. Thousands feel they are.
OK so how do we address those fears that populists are exploiting by blaming everything on immigration where that isn't the case.
As for asylum, how do we convey the realities amongst a sea of lies?
Not sure what you are asking for to be honest.
With respect that is a really dumb thing to say.
Yeah, I'm struggling to follow this too. We know that immigrants don't get priority with doctors, houses or dentists, so why should we be pandering to the hate mongers that spread those lies?
Neither of the main parties have given a credible method of reducing net migration to historical levels
Why tho? Why are you so keen on reducing net migration when it's not the cause of any of the problems these Reform Ltd. voters think it is?
And you may find yourself living in a lovely area
And you may find yourself in a beautiful house, with a beautiful dentist
And you may ask yourself, "Well, how did I get here?"
1 - This photo is about 2 weeks old now as it was from one of the group games. The only reason it's being picked up online today is because the far right / fascist "Turning Point UK" social media accounts has posted a similar question to yours in an attempt to manufacture some artificial anger from the usual types.
2 - At the time, he did an interview where he was quoted saying his England shirt was in the wash (crap excuse, but who cares)
3 - Who genuinely cares about this?