We complain about our politicians, but at least they are broadly compos mentis unlike those two decrepit candidates in America. What is particularly worrying is that one of them will have the sole decision to press the nuclear button.
Whilst I cannot give any truly costed figures for UBI (not my area of expertise) and a lot depends on where it would be pitched, I will offer up the following figures from ONS & others:
Current benefits inc pensions plus associated costs c£280bn (2023)
Estimated underpayments/avoidance of tax c£120bn
Current total tax receipts £899bn (2023/4 est)
Labour are currently proposing a number of taxation measures that would raise some additional £15-20bn with little to no impact on working people
There is clear scope for action on excessive profits from the likes of energy companies
It is currently difficult to estimate the net effects on criminal justice & health costs of a UBI, though evidence from pilot trials globally show a net reduction on these areas costs from those in the trials, so this funding could be used to improve those services or help fund UBI
Based on Devs numbers, the first 2 items could fund a UBI of £10k per adult, with no need to do much else. Whether 10k is adequate is probably moot given the figures rescently from Resolution Foundation on the minimum income required but it would certainly be a start....
Its a bit more complicated & probably includes removing a shit load of tax loopholes etc.
As an aside when I first started work Tolley's tax guide was 2 modest volumes, the 2023 version was 17 volumes - so there is plenty of scope to simplify and tighten the UK tax code leading to less tax disappearing through the loopholes etc.
Luckily for you Farage saw you taking the photo and, knowing it's illegal to use a phone while driving a car, decided not to report you to the police because he believes in FREEDOM.
One thing I have noticed during this campaign, differently from previous elections, is an almost total absence of boards in people's front gardens, saying 'Vote [insert name]'.
This might be because people think it's a foregone conclusion, voter apathy and disillusionment with politicians in general, or simply because they don't want anyone with opposing views chucking eggs at their front door.
What I do suspect, based on conversations overheard between my wife and her friends, and people in the local community centre, is that support for Reform is understated by the polls. Whatever you think of him, the beery bombast Farage is wiping the floor with Sunak and Starmer when it comes to getting the message over. I wouldn't be surprised if they win seats in double digits.
I think the embarrassing nature of vehement political supporters of all flavours (not just in UK, and particularly in the USA) puts "normal" people off showing their support outwardly.
Complete f***wits that vote reform aren't capable of embarrassment and have no shame so they're the ones left shouting loudly.
I think the main reason for the apparent apathy in this election is that so few people trust any poiticians now and believe that whoever they vote for will make no difference to them. I was playing golf this morning and out of 12 of us, 5 were not bothering to vote and 3 or 4 were still undecide who to support. I think the turnout could be lower than expected.
You may be right Bargey. And that is both very sad and understandable. It horrifies me that perhaps one in 5 voters will vote for a party that has people close to its heart that are homophobic, misogynistic racists. That said, I am not surprised. When the conspiracy theorists talk about global elites they are both wrong and right. There are no global conspiracies to chip us or reset us. What there is, is huge arrogance and dismissiveness and contempt from politicians and others with power that righty anger people. To call Reform voters and Trump supporters thick, ignorant, “gammons” and so on is, when you step back and think about it, pretty offensive. The culture wars are exactly that, a war, and one where nobody seems to want to consider a dialogue with the perceived other side.
Farage, Trump, Le Pen and their ilk appeal to people who feel rejected by, talked down to and contemptuously dismissed by very arrogant people. Of course Farage et al are themselves arrogant and self-serving but you know what, most of their supporters know that and tolerate it because they offer a form of hope. Hope for a world that might feel stable, less confusing, with clear rules to follow and the “we know what is best for you because we’re smart and you’re stupid” types held to account.
Now I, being a left wing and very privileged elite, believe that to give power to the populists will leave societies only a step away from totalitarianism and overt institutional oppression of minorities to maintain power. I also believe that to refuse to engage with those who support the politicians I despise and instead look down on them from my ivory tower just hands them more votes. It’s why I need to keep talking to my friends and neighbours and colleagues who are thinking of voting reform, who voted ‘leave’, who really dislike being told to display their pronouns in their work email signature. who ask me “why don’t we have a white history month?” Sometimes we find common ground.
Well, I voted for Leave, and even went out canvassing around the streets of Wycombe. But I didn't support it for any reasons to do with immigration, I never believed that being in or out of the EU would make any significant difference to the net migration figures.
For me, it was a question of Law. In this country, we have a common law system, evolved over hundreds of years, which comprises a combination of statute law (Acts of Parliament), and case law (decisions by superior courts which clarify the law and create binding precedents on lower courts). This is also known as an adversarial system, in which the opposing lawyers will argue cases based on whether the matter under consideration can be held to be substantially similar to a previously settled case, or can be distinguished from it.
In the EU, with the exception of Ireland, Malta and Cyprus who use a version of the English system, they use the civil law system which involves drafting a whole code of regulations covering everything you could possibly think of, and the Judge's role becomes an inquisitorial one, to establish the facts and apply the relevant regulation. A bit like looking up a railway timetable. The fact that, once we joined, tens of thousands of EU Directives and Regulations had to be incorporated into our legal system, was in my view, undermining a system theat worked perferctly well before.
In fact, to even sign up to the Treaty of Rome in 1957 was unconstitutional and unlawful, as was the Treaty of Maastricht 1992 and the Treaty of Lisbon 2009. The Bill of Rights [1689] is still on the statute book, and has never been repealed. It includes the following text, written in the language of its time:
And I doe declare That noe Forreigne Prince Person Prelate, State or Potentate hath or ought to have any Jurisdiction Power Superiority Preeminence or Authoritie Ecclesiasticall or Spirituall within this Realme Soe helpe me God.
Had I known then what I know now, and had the funds to take on the Government in a Judicial Review, I would have challenged those treaties.
Perhaps the only "Brexit Dividend" we will ever get is the chance of the death of right-wing politics in this country as a unified electoral force.
It would be a great thing if the right-wing vote is permanently crippled by being split down the middle between the Faragian swivel-eyed loons and the wetter, so-called "One Nation" lot.
The one thing you would always have to give the Tories credit for was for being a party whose sole existence was to assure power, and discipline was always ultimately maintained to that end - however fractious they got, they would always somehow pull it round when it mattered.
The whole leave remain ballot was nonsense. There is no way such a nuanced question could be summed as in and out and that was the failing.
I want in to an organisation that provides friction free trade for goods and services.
I want out of an organisation that is pushing for a European super army.
etc etc
People need boxes to tick though. Hence the result.
And to this day I’m staggered when people tweet queues at European destinations and state ‘it was all different when we didn’t have to show our passports’ and people agree! People are stupid.
As George Carlin (Bill Hicks without the jokes) said "Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.”
So yes, people are stupid. I'd say stupider now than at any time in living memory but then what? I suppose denying people the vote would make sense but the current situation where they get to vote once every five years under a rigged system is close enough.
Comments
I've never thought about it Dev. You're the one having the discussion
Thanks for your valuable input then Eric.
don't be like that, I was just trying to help
Fair Eric. My comment was unnecessarily sharp.
perhaps @Erroll_Sims will advise on when he thinks the net cost would be and how he will fund it.
Steve’s already let us know about his plans to ‘seize power’.
https://youtu.be/xr-ZY3DUUys?si=DQNSL27uKWEeIFk6
We complain about our politicians, but at least they are broadly compos mentis unlike those two decrepit candidates in America. What is particularly worrying is that one of them will have the sole decision to press the nuclear button.
Frightening indeed 🤦🤦
You're welcome to my tuppence worth to Fox this morning on last night's less-than-edifying spectacle: https://www.livenowfox.com/video/1477658
The Democrats need to press the panic button and get someone else in.
Americans look to strong leaders, and Biden looked like someone’s doddery old great-grandad.
Wow!
The Gasroom takeover of mainstream news begins.
Biden reminds me of young Mr Grace in Are You Being Served!
Hahaha
Whilst I cannot give any truly costed figures for UBI (not my area of expertise) and a lot depends on where it would be pitched, I will offer up the following figures from ONS & others:
Current benefits inc pensions plus associated costs c£280bn (2023)
Estimated underpayments/avoidance of tax c£120bn
Current total tax receipts £899bn (2023/4 est)
Labour are currently proposing a number of taxation measures that would raise some additional £15-20bn with little to no impact on working people
There is clear scope for action on excessive profits from the likes of energy companies
It is currently difficult to estimate the net effects on criminal justice & health costs of a UBI, though evidence from pilot trials globally show a net reduction on these areas costs from those in the trials, so this funding could be used to improve those services or help fund UBI
Based on Devs numbers, the first 2 items could fund a UBI of £10k per adult, with no need to do much else. Whether 10k is adequate is probably moot given the figures rescently from Resolution Foundation on the minimum income required but it would certainly be a start....
I feel like saying you could just collect all the underpaid tax is a bit like saying you could just stop crime.
Its a bit more complicated & probably includes removing a shit load of tax loopholes etc.
As an aside when I first started work Tolley's tax guide was 2 modest volumes, the 2023 version was 17 volumes - so there is plenty of scope to simplify and tighten the UK tax code leading to less tax disappearing through the loopholes etc.
Matt Butcherbird
Charles Dunnock
Just had Farage over take me on the M25
Luckily for you Farage saw you taking the photo and, knowing it's illegal to use a phone while driving a car, decided not to report you to the police because he believes in FREEDOM.
One thing I have noticed during this campaign, differently from previous elections, is an almost total absence of boards in people's front gardens, saying 'Vote [insert name]'.
This might be because people think it's a foregone conclusion, voter apathy and disillusionment with politicians in general, or simply because they don't want anyone with opposing views chucking eggs at their front door.
What I do suspect, based on conversations overheard between my wife and her friends, and people in the local community centre, is that support for Reform is understated by the polls. Whatever you think of him, the beery bombast Farage is wiping the floor with Sunak and Starmer when it comes to getting the message over. I wouldn't be surprised if they win seats in double digits.
I think the embarrassing nature of vehement political supporters of all flavours (not just in UK, and particularly in the USA) puts "normal" people off showing their support outwardly.
Complete f***wits that vote reform aren't capable of embarrassment and have no shame so they're the ones left shouting loudly.
My guess is that it’s because everyone (and by that I mean around 41% of voters) will be voting Labour but without any enthusiasm.
IN THE NET, @Chris.
I think the main reason for the apparent apathy in this election is that so few people trust any poiticians now and believe that whoever they vote for will make no difference to them. I was playing golf this morning and out of 12 of us, 5 were not bothering to vote and 3 or 4 were still undecide who to support. I think the turnout could be lower than expected.
Whatever happened to cars/vans with loudspeakers blaring out 'Vote (party name/candidate)?
You may be right Bargey. And that is both very sad and understandable. It horrifies me that perhaps one in 5 voters will vote for a party that has people close to its heart that are homophobic, misogynistic racists. That said, I am not surprised. When the conspiracy theorists talk about global elites they are both wrong and right. There are no global conspiracies to chip us or reset us. What there is, is huge arrogance and dismissiveness and contempt from politicians and others with power that righty anger people. To call Reform voters and Trump supporters thick, ignorant, “gammons” and so on is, when you step back and think about it, pretty offensive. The culture wars are exactly that, a war, and one where nobody seems to want to consider a dialogue with the perceived other side.
Farage, Trump, Le Pen and their ilk appeal to people who feel rejected by, talked down to and contemptuously dismissed by very arrogant people. Of course Farage et al are themselves arrogant and self-serving but you know what, most of their supporters know that and tolerate it because they offer a form of hope. Hope for a world that might feel stable, less confusing, with clear rules to follow and the “we know what is best for you because we’re smart and you’re stupid” types held to account.
Now I, being a left wing and very privileged elite, believe that to give power to the populists will leave societies only a step away from totalitarianism and overt institutional oppression of minorities to maintain power. I also believe that to refuse to engage with those who support the politicians I despise and instead look down on them from my ivory tower just hands them more votes. It’s why I need to keep talking to my friends and neighbours and colleagues who are thinking of voting reform, who voted ‘leave’, who really dislike being told to display their pronouns in their work email signature. who ask me “why don’t we have a white history month?” Sometimes we find common ground.
Well, I voted for Leave, and even went out canvassing around the streets of Wycombe. But I didn't support it for any reasons to do with immigration, I never believed that being in or out of the EU would make any significant difference to the net migration figures.
For me, it was a question of Law. In this country, we have a common law system, evolved over hundreds of years, which comprises a combination of statute law (Acts of Parliament), and case law (decisions by superior courts which clarify the law and create binding precedents on lower courts). This is also known as an adversarial system, in which the opposing lawyers will argue cases based on whether the matter under consideration can be held to be substantially similar to a previously settled case, or can be distinguished from it.
In the EU, with the exception of Ireland, Malta and Cyprus who use a version of the English system, they use the civil law system which involves drafting a whole code of regulations covering everything you could possibly think of, and the Judge's role becomes an inquisitorial one, to establish the facts and apply the relevant regulation. A bit like looking up a railway timetable. The fact that, once we joined, tens of thousands of EU Directives and Regulations had to be incorporated into our legal system, was in my view, undermining a system theat worked perferctly well before.
In fact, to even sign up to the Treaty of Rome in 1957 was unconstitutional and unlawful, as was the Treaty of Maastricht 1992 and the Treaty of Lisbon 2009. The Bill of Rights [1689] is still on the statute book, and has never been repealed. It includes the following text, written in the language of its time:
And I doe declare That noe Forreigne Prince Person Prelate, State or Potentate hath or ought to have any Jurisdiction Power Superiority Preeminence or Authoritie Ecclesiasticall or Spirituall within this Realme Soe helpe me God.
Had I known then what I know now, and had the funds to take on the Government in a Judicial Review, I would have challenged those treaties.
Perhaps the only "Brexit Dividend" we will ever get is the chance of the death of right-wing politics in this country as a unified electoral force.
It would be a great thing if the right-wing vote is permanently crippled by being split down the middle between the Faragian swivel-eyed loons and the wetter, so-called "One Nation" lot.
The one thing you would always have to give the Tories credit for was for being a party whose sole existence was to assure power, and discipline was always ultimately maintained to that end - however fractious they got, they would always somehow pull it round when it mattered.
In just the same way that Labour wouldn't.
No more.
The whole leave remain ballot was nonsense. There is no way such a nuanced question could be summed as in and out and that was the failing.
I want in to an organisation that provides friction free trade for goods and services.
I want out of an organisation that is pushing for a European super army.
etc etc
People need boxes to tick though. Hence the result.
And to this day I’m staggered when people tweet queues at European destinations and state ‘it was all different when we didn’t have to show our passports’ and people agree! People are stupid.
As George Carlin (Bill Hicks without the jokes) said "Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.”
So yes, people are stupid. I'd say stupider now than at any time in living memory but then what? I suppose denying people the vote would make sense but the current situation where they get to vote once every five years under a rigged system is close enough.
Eddie Hitler understood.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcisPM-JmhU