Yeah, it's got discussed above but the big papers mostly have ever decreasing circulation and non-dom owners with their own agendas, not sure why they still have prominence.
Think quite a lot of newly trained doctors go off to Australia where they are better paid, work less hours and have a better climate. Does seem there should be a better way here. Slightly puzzling too why we train so few - it is extraordinarily difficult to gain a training place. OK we want quality trainees but surely a few more quantity wouldn't compromise that.
We train so few, Dev, because the Tory’s cut the training bursary and so people enter the profession massively in debt and earning £1 an hour more than someone at McDonald’s.
but certain press will tell you the strikes are only about those doctors that have been in job for many years and earning more that £60k already.
but this is really off topic now, when my intention was exactly as @StrongestTeam mentioned and theres more than one issue going on and it’s not all about Lineker
He upset the government who got at the BBC? He did that, IMO, by telling the truth. Laws to ban protest. Laws to ban strikes. Wishing to reduce Human Rights legislation. Isn't that exactly what happened in Germany in the 30s? The "boat people" have become whipping boys.
Maybe we should look at why/how this has escalated. It has been made virtually impossible for them to apply for Asylum in the UK, elsewhere in the world they come from. When Asylum seekers do get here, the system takes forever to make a decision. They aren't allowed to work which is why taxpayers pick up the bill from the hotels the government puts them in. When asylum is denied they rarely get sent back anywhere.
Set up points at Embassies/Consulates in the land/region they come from or in the EU, process claims quickly but fairly. Those qualifying for asylum should be brought over. The rest should be left where they are. Proper refugees should always be welcome. Others not.
I agree with much of what has been said above. There are multiple ongoing issues that need to be addressed, many of which are interlinked and almost all lead back to the governments of the last 13 years, though to be fair some like the creeping privatisation of the NHS pre-date Cameron's premiership.
In my view the problem of single issues grabbing the public's attention to the exclusion of everything else is in part down to the fact that the press only have one banner headline per edition, smilarly the TV/Radio news only has one lead story each bulletin & social media is a cess pit of an echo chamber where people only seem to be able to hold one thought at a time. Add to that the absence of any serious form of critical thinking amongst the under 30's & the habit of no-debate/de-platforming that they seem to engage in means we as a society are totally unable to enter into any truly meaningful form of discussion about issues before people start using the "N" & "F" words to describe those who dont hold the same agenda/faith/beliefs/interpretation of the facts. This is encouraged by the government & the press barons as it serves their ends to keep us focussed on the trivial (e.g. Lineker) rather than the substantive issues we are all facing.
You do have to wonder if they ever sit in the cabinet meetings and say ‘you know what we’ve pretty much lost control of everything, let’s give someone else a go’. You can’t think it’s a place where job satisfaction is a thing - the whole country is failing.
No that is not really true @TheDancingYak . There is incredible competition amongst school leavers to get a place in medical school. If we doubled the number of places, we could fill them.
there may well be an issue with retention but not with lack of recruits.
Junior Doctors are treated badly just as all front line staff within the NHS are. Why? Because for a decade this evil cabal of right wing free marketers that is laughably called our government have wanted to destroy what is the one institution that is most admired around the world about this country ‘free healthcare at the point of need’ (side note to the Tory press that is what our grandparents fought for and voted for post war not keeping those more unfortunate than us out of this green and pleasant land).
Spot on. Not a Red Vs Blue issue as many on the Red side also have concerns about what their leadership will bring but there must come a time when it just all gets a bit stale and something new is needed. In the corporate world they'd all get cleaned out or barred from directorship.
It's very difficult to argue that there is no money for a range of vital things after wasting so much on dubious items that pander to a need but don't actually make anything better. The amount paid out to stabilise markets after Liz Truss' mad wobble and the amount spent on unusable PPE are just highlights.
Wonder how we got to a position where caring about the environment is woke so private companies are allowed to pour excrement into rivers by the tonne.
You don't think that over half a million people arriving every year might be contributing to the strain on the NHS? And you think that WWii was fought to allow unlimited immigration?
Funny - but in all seriousness it's a wonder anyone wants to be a politician these days as it's a virtually impossible job and you are unlikely to get any thanks for it.
Many of the people coming to this country @LDF come here to work in the NHS. Those who do not generally pay tax to help fund it.
The most beneficial people from a purely financial point of view for any country are those who arrive after 18 - and therefore don't need state investment into their education - and leave at around 50 before excessive healthcare and pensions liability kicks in. Immigrants tend to be the closest to this profile.
Don't believe the crap you here and read on GB News and the Daily Express and from those seeking power from spreading lies, fear and hatred.
What rhetoric? I asked you two questions. You seem to think that the men fighting WWii hoped they were paving the way for unlimited immigration. If I've got that wrong then please clarify your statement.
Quite where you have developed your world view is entirely for you to know @LDF . As I am sure you are aware, blaming immigrants for the failings of the NHS is exactly the sort of nonsense you would hear on GB News and the Daily Express, but I concede it is possible you have formed your view independently. The key issue is that, with respect, your expressed view is plainly nonsense not how you came to form it.
I’ve no idea where you get this supposition of my claiming a war was fought for unlimited immigration!? No such words meaning or even inference in my posts. Indeed that is as delusional as the term Nazi falsely being put into Linakers mouth by subversive elements.
Speaking of Gary, I would hope that you can bring yourself to agree with his latest statement that this country is predominantly tolerant, welcoming and kind to those less fortunate than ourselves.
Unless that is you live by some alternative moral code that I am unaware of?
It's immigration I'm against, not immigrants. I treat everyone with love and respect regardless of where they came from or how they got here. No country in the world has the unlimited immigration policy that progressives in Britain desire. I find it incredible that they also see no problem with the NHS recruiting staff that have been expensively trained by poor countries who need them more than we do.
I’d love to believe that @perfidious_albion but I struggle to be that positive, having read multiple stories of people who have lived their entire adult lives in the UK and have been prevented from coming home after a holiday abroad as part of the ‘hostile environment’ policy.
I also had the misfortune to witness a ‘protest’ outside a hotel housing asylum seekers last week, a large group of people outside the hotel making loud noises and shining torches into the windows in order to disrupt the sleep of those inside.
Immigration has two factors that maybe aren't discussed enough, one is that as above those coming to the country often contribute more than they take in a range of ways and the other is that the so called crisis is manufactured, we accept less people than we ever have and make it as difficult for them as possible. The costs and queues are largely down to slower processing.
Pandering to the immigration always equals bad types has already had a damaging effect on areas such as the NHS, seasonal agriculture and universities, where we used to be able to top up income by happily overcharging people from abroad to go to UK universities, but this contributed to net figures so had to stop.
There is losing office and taking yourself to the position where your party is likely to be the fourth biggest in Parliament at the next GE and will barely exist.
As a labour voter I still can't get fully embrace Keir though. Labour's whole election will be 'we are not them' and that will be enough to win but it's not lighting my fire. Maybe that's modern politics and I am not modern.
We have a net loss of 280k people per year at the moment, as in considerably more people leave this country than arrive. For immigrants to cause a strain on the NHS, immigration would need to increase five fold. Bit rich to cry foul at the mention of the Express and GBeebies when you're repeating the exact same lies as them.
Comments
No, but you can only put one front page headline.
Yeah, it's got discussed above but the big papers mostly have ever decreasing circulation and non-dom owners with their own agendas, not sure why they still have prominence.
Think quite a lot of newly trained doctors go off to Australia where they are better paid, work less hours and have a better climate. Does seem there should be a better way here. Slightly puzzling too why we train so few - it is extraordinarily difficult to gain a training place. OK we want quality trainees but surely a few more quantity wouldn't compromise that.
We train so few, Dev, because the Tory’s cut the training bursary and so people enter the profession massively in debt and earning £1 an hour more than someone at McDonald’s.
but certain press will tell you the strikes are only about those doctors that have been in job for many years and earning more that £60k already.
but this is really off topic now, when my intention was exactly as @StrongestTeam mentioned and theres more than one issue going on and it’s not all about Lineker
He upset the government who got at the BBC? He did that, IMO, by telling the truth. Laws to ban protest. Laws to ban strikes. Wishing to reduce Human Rights legislation. Isn't that exactly what happened in Germany in the 30s? The "boat people" have become whipping boys.
Maybe we should look at why/how this has escalated. It has been made virtually impossible for them to apply for Asylum in the UK, elsewhere in the world they come from. When Asylum seekers do get here, the system takes forever to make a decision. They aren't allowed to work which is why taxpayers pick up the bill from the hotels the government puts them in. When asylum is denied they rarely get sent back anywhere.
Set up points at Embassies/Consulates in the land/region they come from or in the EU, process claims quickly but fairly. Those qualifying for asylum should be brought over. The rest should be left where they are. Proper refugees should always be welcome. Others not.
Overly simplified? How hard can it be?
I agree with much of what has been said above. There are multiple ongoing issues that need to be addressed, many of which are interlinked and almost all lead back to the governments of the last 13 years, though to be fair some like the creeping privatisation of the NHS pre-date Cameron's premiership.
In my view the problem of single issues grabbing the public's attention to the exclusion of everything else is in part down to the fact that the press only have one banner headline per edition, smilarly the TV/Radio news only has one lead story each bulletin & social media is a cess pit of an echo chamber where people only seem to be able to hold one thought at a time. Add to that the absence of any serious form of critical thinking amongst the under 30's & the habit of no-debate/de-platforming that they seem to engage in means we as a society are totally unable to enter into any truly meaningful form of discussion about issues before people start using the "N" & "F" words to describe those who dont hold the same agenda/faith/beliefs/interpretation of the facts. This is encouraged by the government & the press barons as it serves their ends to keep us focussed on the trivial (e.g. Lineker) rather than the substantive issues we are all facing.
You do have to wonder if they ever sit in the cabinet meetings and say ‘you know what we’ve pretty much lost control of everything, let’s give someone else a go’. You can’t think it’s a place where job satisfaction is a thing - the whole country is failing.
No that is not really true @TheDancingYak . There is incredible competition amongst school leavers to get a place in medical school. If we doubled the number of places, we could fill them.
there may well be an issue with retention but not with lack of recruits.
Junior Doctors are treated badly just as all front line staff within the NHS are. Why? Because for a decade this evil cabal of right wing free marketers that is laughably called our government have wanted to destroy what is the one institution that is most admired around the world about this country ‘free healthcare at the point of need’ (side note to the Tory press that is what our grandparents fought for and voted for post war not keeping those more unfortunate than us out of this green and pleasant land).
Perfidious Albion indeed.
Spot on. Not a Red Vs Blue issue as many on the Red side also have concerns about what their leadership will bring but there must come a time when it just all gets a bit stale and something new is needed. In the corporate world they'd all get cleaned out or barred from directorship.
It's very difficult to argue that there is no money for a range of vital things after wasting so much on dubious items that pander to a need but don't actually make anything better. The amount paid out to stabilise markets after Liz Truss' mad wobble and the amount spent on unusable PPE are just highlights.
Wonder how we got to a position where caring about the environment is woke so private companies are allowed to pour excrement into rivers by the tonne.
You don't think that over half a million people arriving every year might be contributing to the strain on the NHS? And you think that WWii was fought to allow unlimited immigration?
I have this cynical view that they have desperately been trying to lose office ever since the Brexit fiasco. And, have failed dismally even at that.
No-one else wants the job either hence Starmer's refusal to oppose anything.
Funny - but in all seriousness it's a wonder anyone wants to be a politician these days as it's a virtually impossible job and you are unlikely to get any thanks for it.
Many of the people coming to this country @LDF come here to work in the NHS. Those who do not generally pay tax to help fund it.
The most beneficial people from a purely financial point of view for any country are those who arrive after 18 - and therefore don't need state investment into their education - and leave at around 50 before excessive healthcare and pensions liability kicks in. Immigrants tend to be the closest to this profile.
Don't believe the crap you here and read on GB News and the Daily Express and from those seeking power from spreading lies, fear and hatred.
Immigrants to the UK are a net benefit to our economy, and without migrant workers the NHS would have died years ago
It is difficult to have a rational debate with such hysterical rhetoric.
Thank goodness for your rational sanity @DevC and @eric_plant on this issue. Couldn’t have put it better.
What rhetoric? I asked you two questions. You seem to think that the men fighting WWii hoped they were paving the way for unlimited immigration. If I've got that wrong then please clarify your statement.
I don't believe in the primacy of economic growth.
My world view is not shaped by GB News and The Daily Express, ROFL.
Quite where you have developed your world view is entirely for you to know @LDF . As I am sure you are aware, blaming immigrants for the failings of the NHS is exactly the sort of nonsense you would hear on GB News and the Daily Express, but I concede it is possible you have formed your view independently. The key issue is that, with respect, your expressed view is plainly nonsense not how you came to form it.
I’ve no idea where you get this supposition of my claiming a war was fought for unlimited immigration!? No such words meaning or even inference in my posts. Indeed that is as delusional as the term Nazi falsely being put into Linakers mouth by subversive elements.
Speaking of Gary, I would hope that you can bring yourself to agree with his latest statement that this country is predominantly tolerant, welcoming and kind to those less fortunate than ourselves.
Unless that is you live by some alternative moral code that I am unaware of?
It's immigration I'm against, not immigrants. I treat everyone with love and respect regardless of where they came from or how they got here. No country in the world has the unlimited immigration policy that progressives in Britain desire. I find it incredible that they also see no problem with the NHS recruiting staff that have been expensively trained by poor countries who need them more than we do.
I’d love to believe that @perfidious_albion but I struggle to be that positive, having read multiple stories of people who have lived their entire adult lives in the UK and have been prevented from coming home after a holiday abroad as part of the ‘hostile environment’ policy.
I also had the misfortune to witness a ‘protest’ outside a hotel housing asylum seekers last week, a large group of people outside the hotel making loud noises and shining torches into the windows in order to disrupt the sleep of those inside.
Immigration has two factors that maybe aren't discussed enough, one is that as above those coming to the country often contribute more than they take in a range of ways and the other is that the so called crisis is manufactured, we accept less people than we ever have and make it as difficult for them as possible. The costs and queues are largely down to slower processing.
Pandering to the immigration always equals bad types has already had a damaging effect on areas such as the NHS, seasonal agriculture and universities, where we used to be able to top up income by happily overcharging people from abroad to go to UK universities, but this contributed to net figures so had to stop.
There is losing office and taking yourself to the position where your party is likely to be the fourth biggest in Parliament at the next GE and will barely exist.
As a labour voter I still can't get fully embrace Keir though. Labour's whole election will be 'we are not them' and that will be enough to win but it's not lighting my fire. Maybe that's modern politics and I am not modern.
Your argument continues to evolve @LDF .
No one I have seen has argued for an unlimited immigration policy. Certainly not me.
You have provided no evidence to support your apparent claim that the failings of the NHS are down to immigration.
I agree with you - we should train more doctors ourselves. Always nice to end on agreement.
We have a net loss of 280k people per year at the moment, as in considerably more people leave this country than arrive. For immigrants to cause a strain on the NHS, immigration would need to increase five fold. Bit rich to cry foul at the mention of the Express and GBeebies when you're repeating the exact same lies as them.
Don't get me started on the state of our education system!
Where on Earth are you getting your figures from? Net immigration in 2022 was 504k - reported in any news outlet you care to name.