Apropos of nothing @glasshalffull I do know that during the Dorries period of cultural chaos, two prominent C4 news journalists were told by ministers after fiesty interviews words to the effect: THAT'S exactly why you're getting privatised...
Wrighty says he'll quit the Beeb if they give Lineker the boot. So much admiration for the way they've rallied around their colleague amid his disgraceful treatment.
Any government of today or the future has no choice. Any other stance will be considered an attack on free speech. What as a society we struggle with is that the moment someone shares a view that does not align with yours they are attacked, demanded to be fired, and generally called to be ostracised. This is not going to stop and Lineker will not be the last one to fall foul of a rulebook that doesn't exist and never can. And it is all very well saying 'I don't like what you say, but I defend your right to say it' but if you are trying to sell a product and your presenter is p1ssing off a percentage of your client base by sharing a view that you do not like meaning you do not watch / buy that product its a really tough position.
Good points, But surely not just for government or broadcasters, People making a comment that may sound offensive to someone else have rights as do those who compIain and each case needs dealing with within a rules framework. I think this is where sometimes hypocrisy is thrown around in cases that are only similar as an immediate stop as if anyone spouting anything against the party line is automatically a sacking offense. We could do with the press and politicians frankly being a bit more adult and less myopic but I won't hold my breath.
With a bit of thicker skin and a bit of simple due process the aim should be to see what offence he has caused, was it a personal attack on the person or a policy, what was he actually trying to get at, is it reasonable for him to have thought that from what they said etc, etc.
Personally I think the original policy is pretty mean and unhelpful and then the suspension doesn't really fit I with their own procedures or how they've treated others and that's why he's got support and it's blown up in their faces, much to the glee of some of their competitors and opponents.
Sympathy for the government is probably misplaced, not only did they pour fuel on with comments but have also shown huge interest in bending rules or removing them entirely when they get pulled up for cronyism or infringing rights.
I'd imagine some kind of joint climb down statement in the next few days, might be interesting wether he says much or they simply go with something like they have reiterated his responsibilities.
Various BBC regulars and their on-line critical comments about the present government have been mentioned on here. I don’t think the BBC has been paying any of them £1.35m a year. Surely not a factor in the present impasse.
Every argument put forward is greeted with tsunami of tribalistic what-aboutery. I support Lineker calling out the Government policy on immigration. I stumble with the introduction of rise of the Nazis to the argument. It didn't enhance the point it widened and detracted and possibly undermined. Like many people I have a heritage that is linked to that era (that ironically led to immigration etc etc) and so cringe when I see the frequent use of Nazi as an adjective (anything from freedom of speech to diets it seems).
I simply can't see a framework policy that can see a person understand what they can and cannot say. There is always someone that is going to take offence to something. We are need society to realise that these 280 characters are not statements of truth, they are not fact, they are not law they are largely bullshit and whimsy. But we all love to be offended these days and actively seek out ways to be offended.
I dislike Jeremy Clarkson, not a recent thing he's just not my cup of tea. He wrote what he wrote. I am guessing the people who read it were in the tens of thousands. By magnifying what he said to a larger audience the whole world got a chance to be outraged. You know what he is like, you know what he talks about, you know you don't like it, just don't read it. But it seems everyone HAD to read it to be offended. And if you weren't actively offended it you were as bad as Clarkson.
Agree with a lot of that, I have possibly similar links and hate it when that argument is used for complaints about anything from taxation to speeding and basic law and order enforcement but feel maybe blaming foreigners disproportionately, talking of swarms and invasions and removing rights to protest do stray in to the "that sounds a bit worrying" territory, I know others disagree and some just don't care but as someone pointed out what's the point of saying lest we forget and similar to ignore everything short of the most aggressive outcomes.
On Clarkson it's difficult to see how the sort of language used could fit into anything even loosely described as editorial standards and his output is fairly mainstream. Sometimes we get carried away with the fuss rather than the issue.
I have come across the Director General of the Beeb in another life. Can I just say the $#*t storm he is going through couldn’t happen to a ‘nicer bloke’!😉
I saw 12 "thumbs downs" on my earlier comments so chose to do a little more research. I know NOTHING about politics. My remarks were not in context with the debate.
I would like to retract what I said if not too late.
Anyone know why the junior doctors are striking for three days from today and everyone’s still just talking about Gary Linekar?
I can’t help but feel that whatever you feel about his tweet it’s a massive smokescreen.
prediction: everything sorted with Gary by lunchtime tomorrow, ready to hit the headlines midway through the 3 day strike and Wednesdays papers completely pushing the crippling of the nhs services to about page 8.
I have strongly supported Gary in this, but I fear he’s unwittingly become the governments useful idiot this time round.
You’re spot on in my opinion. Christ alive, junior doctors are treated incredibly poorly. I advise anyone unaware to spend 15 mins researching. Thoroughly disgraceful treatment.
Can people only consider one issue at a time now? Maybe? Should we only have one thread at a time then?
Interesting point thrown up by Barney Ronay that may explain why Shearer's statement was so short, Newcastle's owners are unlikely to share his opinion on free speech and he'd have trouble denying hypocrisy if you look in any detail.
In answer to @TheDancingYak: they're striking because of their ridiculously low pay and poor working conditions. People are still talking about Gary Lineker because it's easy/bandwagon-jumping/mass hysteria/virtue-signalling/power of celebrity/a strange sense of priorities etc. Now I'll sit back and wait for the flood of thumbs downs that prove my point.
As so often, it is hard to get to the real figures in order to form an opinion.
I understand "junior doctors" is something of a misleading term - and then figures get bandied around sometimes talking about green young recruits just out of college and some talking about actually very experienced very skilled doctors who are still termed "junior doctors".
As far as my preconceptions are concerned, doctors are well paid for doing a very important job, have very strong job security, very good pensions but are expected to work too long hours. Some of those preconceptions may be wrong - I struggle to get to the truth.
As with so many public services, it seems that we as a country are unable to organise ourselves well and are struggling to raise enough tax revenues to pay for the services we want. Honestly not sure of the solution -in truth that solution will be far more complex than simply changing the colour of the rosettes of the party in government (although getting rid of the current shower does seem a priority)
Whilst we are straying off topic here I’m always puzzled about Jr doctors. Especially as I’ve known a few.
Take your best and brightest. Give them crippling debt. Make them work til they physically drop or mentally burn out. Pay them sweet FA.
Am I missing something? But it seems this has been the norm for … well ever
A better system would be to give them higher pay and training free in exchange for a handcuff deal to keep them in the NHS surely. Thus negating the max hours which I’m sure leads to increased mortality.
Seems to be an open invitation to quit and go and do something else or work in the private sector wasting hugely expensive training doesn't it.
Agre with Dev, hugely complicated, but seems to be some backfiring cost saving and not much long term thinking. Unless the plan really is to kill it off and let private companies in to take over, which would also be hugely problematic.
Comments
Apropos of nothing @glasshalffull I do know that during the Dorries period of cultural chaos, two prominent C4 news journalists were told by ministers after fiesty interviews words to the effect: THAT'S exactly why you're getting privatised...
There’s a whole article discussing this here: https://www.theguardian.com/football/2023/mar/11/gary-lineker-was-singled-out-from-a-long-list-of-bbc-stars-who-express-political-views
Wrighty says he'll quit the Beeb if they give Lineker the boot. So much admiration for the way they've rallied around their colleague amid his disgraceful treatment.
I think this is actually the most sensible way forward for the BBC from here
Any government of today or the future has no choice. Any other stance will be considered an attack on free speech. What as a society we struggle with is that the moment someone shares a view that does not align with yours they are attacked, demanded to be fired, and generally called to be ostracised. This is not going to stop and Lineker will not be the last one to fall foul of a rulebook that doesn't exist and never can. And it is all very well saying 'I don't like what you say, but I defend your right to say it' but if you are trying to sell a product and your presenter is p1ssing off a percentage of your client base by sharing a view that you do not like meaning you do not watch / buy that product its a really tough position.
The world remains an angry place
Good points, But surely not just for government or broadcasters, People making a comment that may sound offensive to someone else have rights as do those who compIain and each case needs dealing with within a rules framework. I think this is where sometimes hypocrisy is thrown around in cases that are only similar as an immediate stop as if anyone spouting anything against the party line is automatically a sacking offense. We could do with the press and politicians frankly being a bit more adult and less myopic but I won't hold my breath.
With a bit of thicker skin and a bit of simple due process the aim should be to see what offence he has caused, was it a personal attack on the person or a policy, what was he actually trying to get at, is it reasonable for him to have thought that from what they said etc, etc.
Personally I think the original policy is pretty mean and unhelpful and then the suspension doesn't really fit I with their own procedures or how they've treated others and that's why he's got support and it's blown up in their faces, much to the glee of some of their competitors and opponents.
Sympathy for the government is probably misplaced, not only did they pour fuel on with comments but have also shown huge interest in bending rules or removing them entirely when they get pulled up for cronyism or infringing rights.
I'd imagine some kind of joint climb down statement in the next few days, might be interesting wether he says much or they simply go with something like they have reiterated his responsibilities.
Various BBC regulars and their on-line critical comments about the present government have been mentioned on here. I don’t think the BBC has been paying any of them £1.35m a year. Surely not a factor in the present impasse.
Sorry about that. Not on this occasion a case of my mind going blank.
Has anyone seen GB News' 'Alternative Match of the Day'? There are people who unironically watch that channel...
I’ve seen clips but you couldn’t pay me to watch the whole thing.
I'd assumed it was just a bit of a spoof, surely wasn't serious
Every argument put forward is greeted with tsunami of tribalistic what-aboutery. I support Lineker calling out the Government policy on immigration. I stumble with the introduction of rise of the Nazis to the argument. It didn't enhance the point it widened and detracted and possibly undermined. Like many people I have a heritage that is linked to that era (that ironically led to immigration etc etc) and so cringe when I see the frequent use of Nazi as an adjective (anything from freedom of speech to diets it seems).
I simply can't see a framework policy that can see a person understand what they can and cannot say. There is always someone that is going to take offence to something. We are need society to realise that these 280 characters are not statements of truth, they are not fact, they are not law they are largely bullshit and whimsy. But we all love to be offended these days and actively seek out ways to be offended.
I dislike Jeremy Clarkson, not a recent thing he's just not my cup of tea. He wrote what he wrote. I am guessing the people who read it were in the tens of thousands. By magnifying what he said to a larger audience the whole world got a chance to be outraged. You know what he is like, you know what he talks about, you know you don't like it, just don't read it. But it seems everyone HAD to read it to be offended. And if you weren't actively offended it you were as bad as Clarkson.
Maybe I embrace ambivalence a bit too easily.
Unfortunately, that is GB News' typical output
What's bugged me about the whole 'Lineker' debate is that those seeking to detract from what he said keep quoting him as having used the word 'Nazi'.
Now this word immediately invokes in many people an extreme reaction and, I suspect, that's why he didn't use that specific word.
You might argue that is exactly what he meant but to me it's an attempt to discredit any validity to his tweet.
Agree with a lot of that, I have possibly similar links and hate it when that argument is used for complaints about anything from taxation to speeding and basic law and order enforcement but feel maybe blaming foreigners disproportionately, talking of swarms and invasions and removing rights to protest do stray in to the "that sounds a bit worrying" territory, I know others disagree and some just don't care but as someone pointed out what's the point of saying lest we forget and similar to ignore everything short of the most aggressive outcomes.
On Clarkson it's difficult to see how the sort of language used could fit into anything even loosely described as editorial standards and his output is fairly mainstream. Sometimes we get carried away with the fuss rather than the issue.
Yep. The BBC have utterly underestimated this one.
I have come across the Director General of the Beeb in another life. Can I just say the $#*t storm he is going through couldn’t happen to a ‘nicer bloke’!😉
He lives in Henley by the way.
Your last sentence is everything. And. It just on this quite frankly non issue topic.
Hey remember those WhatApp messages? They were fun times
I saw 12 "thumbs downs" on my earlier comments so chose to do a little more research. I know NOTHING about politics. My remarks were not in context with the debate.
I would like to retract what I said if not too late.
Football, yes. Politics, no.
Anyone know why the junior doctors are striking for three days from today and everyone’s still just talking about Gary Linekar?
I can’t help but feel that whatever you feel about his tweet it’s a massive smokescreen.
prediction: everything sorted with Gary by lunchtime tomorrow, ready to hit the headlines midway through the 3 day strike and Wednesdays papers completely pushing the crippling of the nhs services to about page 8.
I have strongly supported Gary in this, but I fear he’s unwittingly become the governments useful idiot this time round.
Gary Lineker??? Today's all about a comedy version of The Matrix that was going to star Jackie Chan but dumped him and went on to win all the Oscars.
Not for the right wing Tory supporting entities it’s not. But you’re right. That distracts the others for a morning or so.
Had a quick read. It was the bit about telling someone to "grow up" for posting what they believed that I thought was a curious comment.
Especially when all of us are constantly wittering away on an online forum ourselves!
You’re spot on in my opinion. Christ alive, junior doctors are treated incredibly poorly. I advise anyone unaware to spend 15 mins researching. Thoroughly disgraceful treatment.
Can people only consider one issue at a time now? Maybe? Should we only have one thread at a time then?
Interesting point thrown up by Barney Ronay that may explain why Shearer's statement was so short, Newcastle's owners are unlikely to share his opinion on free speech and he'd have trouble denying hypocrisy if you look in any detail.
In answer to @TheDancingYak: they're striking because of their ridiculously low pay and poor working conditions. People are still talking about Gary Lineker because it's easy/bandwagon-jumping/mass hysteria/virtue-signalling/power of celebrity/a strange sense of priorities etc. Now I'll sit back and wait for the flood of thumbs downs that prove my point.
As so often, it is hard to get to the real figures in order to form an opinion.
I understand "junior doctors" is something of a misleading term - and then figures get bandied around sometimes talking about green young recruits just out of college and some talking about actually very experienced very skilled doctors who are still termed "junior doctors".
As far as my preconceptions are concerned, doctors are well paid for doing a very important job, have very strong job security, very good pensions but are expected to work too long hours. Some of those preconceptions may be wrong - I struggle to get to the truth.
As with so many public services, it seems that we as a country are unable to organise ourselves well and are struggling to raise enough tax revenues to pay for the services we want. Honestly not sure of the solution -in truth that solution will be far more complex than simply changing the colour of the rosettes of the party in government (although getting rid of the current shower does seem a priority)
Whilst we are straying off topic here I’m always puzzled about Jr doctors. Especially as I’ve known a few.
Take your best and brightest. Give them crippling debt. Make them work til they physically drop or mentally burn out. Pay them sweet FA.
Am I missing something? But it seems this has been the norm for … well ever
A better system would be to give them higher pay and training free in exchange for a handcuff deal to keep them in the NHS surely. Thus negating the max hours which I’m sure leads to increased mortality.
Seems to be an open invitation to quit and go and do something else or work in the private sector wasting hugely expensive training doesn't it.
Agre with Dev, hugely complicated, but seems to be some backfiring cost saving and not much long term thinking. Unless the plan really is to kill it off and let private companies in to take over, which would also be hugely problematic.