your not asking a question, you know exactly what your doing, anyway I apologise if I caused you offence but had enough of people ridiculing my comments , this is not the reason i joined this forum
I did ask a question which is why I put a question mark at the end of the sentence. Anyway, as you are gracious enough to apologise that’s the end of it.
I think with a more competent and paid Trust, I do believe you could have both. We were promoted to League One under that ownership model. Where has the extra ticket and Championship money gone through? @perfidious_albion that's a good point about the Rob Couhig's promotion comments and I don't have experience with the "US corporate environments", so I take your point. I don't believe in our culture though it is particularly helpful to be making those comments and mainly just puts unnecessary pressure on Ainsworth and Dobbo. I don't by any means think the Couhigs are doing a bad job, but at the same time I don't believe it's particularly challenging to look good with our best managerial pairing of all time.
No surprise to hear from @glasshalffull regarding ticket price. Do you think that with this cost-of-living crisis and the lack of money for the lowest demographics in High Wycombe and surrounding areas, that the ticket prices are still accessible to the same percentage of our community as it was say three years ago? And yes, I think Ainsworth and Dobbo demonstrated they can get us promoted with a smaller budget, they have done it twice and nearly kept us up in the Championship.
Perhaps I was a bit OTT @glasshalffull/@bluenotes when I said, "weaker squad" and you're right about Freeman, Mehmeti and Forino. I do feel that for the perhaps the first time since Ainsworth's first pre-season that we haven't significantly improved our playing squad though, which I do think is a missed opportunity. Admiral Muskwe going to Fleetwood highlights that.
That's a very good point about the 25% @StrongestTeam and to be honest, not one I had considered.
I appreciate Portmouth's average attendance is far superior to ours. @ReturnToSenda and @glasshalffull I haven't seen the books, but like I said, "I have it on excellent authority that Portsmouth doesn't have a massive budget and is, in fact, mid-table."
@eric_plant for me it just isn't a risk trusting Ainsworth and Dobbo in the transfer market, they get right more often than pretty much any other pair in the Football League. Oxford United are a very good recent example of sort of revenue we could generate, season on season in sales.
Oxfords most recent accounts show a loss of £5.5 million pounds on a turnover of £5.9 million. Player sales of £1.8 million lowered the losses to £3.7 million.
The previous set of accounts showed a loss of £4 million on a turnover of £6.6 million. Player sales of £5.8 million meant they made a profit of £1.8 million. They sold four players the season we beat them in the playoff final. Two going for £2M plus.
They have a similar gambling attitude to each season as Derby and Brentford with the owners willing to bankroll massive debt and the hope they will sell players or get to the promised land.
Fleetwood posted similar figures, Cambridge might look out of place in the top half but have just spent £4.5m buying their ground back so they can spend more money doing it up, Exeter and and posh have done well on selling players, the latter by buying at some expense great lower league prospects and having the ability to say no to lesser offers.
I'd say the only thing that stops us selling Mehmeti for £5m might be one club offering £1.5m and no more and us seriously having to weigh that up.
People also don't seem to realise that it's not only player wages and fees, all the support services and staff cost and having 29/20/35000 fans a week makes a huge difference to the treatment, facilities and staff available and their choice of youth prospects. We've done brilliant for a decade due to hard work, yes - we got promoted on a shoe string the first time but we also lost £500k a year, subsequently reduced the playing budget, took a pay day loan from a prospective owner who turned out to not be interested, and could barely get a poster printed as we owed money all over town and the bank weren't going to give us anymore.
We've got two options, stay on the path and hope we can break even with Rob topping up or investing, where possible with a bit of belief in overall growth or find some other mug with real intent to piss away £5m plus and more that they'll almost certainly never see again. Form an orderly queue with your chequebooks out.
Btw If Ibe 's career had headed downwards while out on loan before Bournemouth found buying expensive Liverpool youth teamers to be in vogue we'd still owe Sharkey every penny of sell on fees for decades and have that debt hanging over us.
Or worse if he'd hoodwinked people into building that stadium, we'll just look at Coventry.
Just like the last time you mentioned Rob Couhig 'topping up' the budget I'll point out that there's absolutely no evidence that he has or is doing so. He provided an initial loan ahead of purchase which I suspect (though don't know) was repaid as soon as the Championship monies poured in. We don't have any evidence he's continued to invest or indeed has the funds to do so. There's a strong possibility he and his family are taking significant amounts from the club in consultancy fees / salaries / dividends - but again we don't know that because that information isn't in the public domain.
I think you've misread my intent, almost certainly on purpose. In addition to paying off the other lots loan, and clearing all debt on completion, when they took over they restored Ainsworths budget that had been cut and Fred appeared immediately and we went up. While I don't know the detail financially I haven't personally been asked to chip in for a while and I think it's inconceivable that we'd have been discussing exit roads and expanded facilities if we were still trust owned. If they are purely reinvesting finds from the championship year, I don't really see a problem there. If we hadn't gone up or they couldn't turn around losses they'd be responsible for debt.
Not sure where we are with registered accounts tbh , others might, The trust own 25% of the club , I'd imagine they see financial information and would notice any consultancy fees. Also find it difficult to believe you could asset strip or weedle out enough money from loss making L1 football club to justify either the purchase price or hours spent working.
Once again you have cast aspersions on our owners when, by your own admission, you don’t have any evidence that Rob and his family are taking significant amounts from the club in consultancy fees etc. If any businessman wanted to make a profit by taking over a company the very last thing he would do is buy a football club, let alone one in the lower divisions. As the saying goes: the easiest way to become a millionaire is to start with £5m and buy a football club.
And once again you've chosen to comment on one of my posts, despite, apparently, having no interest in my opinions. Is your retirement really so dull, Alan?
As you say, I pointed out very clearly that the Couhigs taking money out of the club rather than putting it in was a strong possibility rather than statement of fact. The only fact is that the information is not in the public domain; everything else is speculation.
If you would allow me one further comment, I would say that I find it amusing you lecture others on the need for high standards in journalism, critiquing others for a lack of training. I'd be interested to hear what training course teaches reporters to take what those in authority say without questioning it or holding power to account.
making up accusations against those in authority with no evidence to support them and then trying to hide behind "strong possibility" rather than "statement of fact" is not holding power to account @aloysius. If you have any evidence for any of your strong possibilities, you are welcome to share. Otherwise silence is perhaps better.
I didn’t say that at all. If you are as clever as you clearly think you are, you will know that I posted I am always civil to posters whose opinion I respect and you don’t fall into that category. FYI I have not retired and my life is far from dull, but thanks for your concern. I would have thought a person as knowledgeable as yourself would know the difference between not questioning those in authority and making snide innuendos that you are unable to substantiate.
I find most of @aloysius’s posts highly amusing. He (she/they) clearly look at the world through a different lens which I find quite interesting.
They also present their view in a relatively articulate way (albeit occasionally indulging in hyberbole - see “strong possibility…)”
I think it helps any debate to include alternative (considered - as opposed to the ‘we’re shit, ahhh’ we get from the odd poster) view from both ends of the spectrum.
They also clearly have a sense of humour and don’t flounce off into the distance at any signs of gentle piss-taking.
constructive criticism is fine of course. My jury on the Couhigs will remain out until they have managed through a difficult period. Gareth hasn’t allowed them to be tested yet.
but making shit up that could be quite damaging if believed and presenting it as a “strong possibility” is not big or clever in my view. It is one of the big negatives of the internet age and should be called out in my view.
@aloysius claims there is a strong possibility that the Couhigs are extracting large sums of money in dividends, salaries or consultancy fees.
Any dividend would also need to be paid to the trust and there is no evidence this has taken place. Besides the state of the clubs balance sheet would make any such dividend illegal.
it is reasonable to think that Couhig junior who I believe works pretty much full time on the club is paid a salary. That and any fees paid to the rest of the family would be known to the WWFC board. It feels incredibly unlikely that the Trust main board directors would allow excessive amounts to happen without protest and ultimately resignation.
So I am calling @aloysius “strong possibility” as bullshit
I agree 100% with what you say about the use of “strong possibility” @DevC but at the same time disagree with (how I see) the tone of your response (which comes over to me as a personal attack)
The use of the phrase clearly needs to have “I think there is a… “ in front of it to make it remotely viable, but it’s absence in an open debate shouldn’t really lead to people taking quite as much umbrage as they appear to.
it’s fair (and appropriate in my view) to challenge that comment (as it’s basically just an unsupported opinion) but we don’t really know or understand how it was meant to be interpreted.
For example it could be just a poorly worded ‘personal opinion’ or it could be a deliberately provocative comment designed to stimulate open discussion and help reach a more considered consensual understanding of where we are with the issue.
I think, in the internet/social media age, we do need to be a little less quick to take offence at views* that may differ from ours.
*Obviously exceptions for racist, sexist, homophobic, Peterborough supporting journalists, etc.
Alternatively, we don't have any evidence that they're taking significant amounts from the club, and there's a strong possibility that they are topping up the budget.
Comments
.
True we had Bayo & Uche for 1 year in the Championship, with a squad limit of 25 (plus under 21s).
Now we're in league 1 with a squad limit of 22 (plus under 21s).
Where else would you cut those 3 players?
Sometumes we have to accept things we can not change.
Cosgrove double today
And your point is?
you really are an argumentative little gnome aren't you. go and enjoy your Saturday night fella
Please stop making this personal.
I asked a question, you failed to answer it and then resorted to an insult. I think that says more about you than me.
your not asking a question, you know exactly what your doing, anyway I apologise if I caused you offence but had enough of people ridiculing my comments , this is not the reason i joined this forum
I did ask a question which is why I put a question mark at the end of the sentence. Anyway, as you are gracious enough to apologise that’s the end of it.
The reason you joined the forum was because your previous avatar got given a red card
The overseas annual online package is the one I was specifically talking about. I appreciate it would have helped if I had stated that in my post.
I think with a more competent and paid Trust, I do believe you could have both. We were promoted to League One under that ownership model. Where has the extra ticket and Championship money gone through? @perfidious_albion that's a good point about the Rob Couhig's promotion comments and I don't have experience with the "US corporate environments", so I take your point. I don't believe in our culture though it is particularly helpful to be making those comments and mainly just puts unnecessary pressure on Ainsworth and Dobbo. I don't by any means think the Couhigs are doing a bad job, but at the same time I don't believe it's particularly challenging to look good with our best managerial pairing of all time.
No surprise to hear from @glasshalffull regarding ticket price. Do you think that with this cost-of-living crisis and the lack of money for the lowest demographics in High Wycombe and surrounding areas, that the ticket prices are still accessible to the same percentage of our community as it was say three years ago? And yes, I think Ainsworth and Dobbo demonstrated they can get us promoted with a smaller budget, they have done it twice and nearly kept us up in the Championship.
Perhaps I was a bit OTT @glasshalffull/@bluenotes when I said, "weaker squad" and you're right about Freeman, Mehmeti and Forino. I do feel that for the perhaps the first time since Ainsworth's first pre-season that we haven't significantly improved our playing squad though, which I do think is a missed opportunity. Admiral Muskwe going to Fleetwood highlights that.
That's a very good point about the 25% @StrongestTeam and to be honest, not one I had considered.
I appreciate Portmouth's average attendance is far superior to ours. @ReturnToSenda and @glasshalffull I haven't seen the books, but like I said, "I have it on excellent authority that Portsmouth doesn't have a massive budget and is, in fact, mid-table."
@eric_plant for me it just isn't a risk trusting Ainsworth and Dobbo in the transfer market, they get right more often than pretty much any other pair in the Football League. Oxford United are a very good recent example of sort of revenue we could generate, season on season in sales.
Oxfords most recent accounts show a loss of £5.5 million pounds on a turnover of £5.9 million. Player sales of £1.8 million lowered the losses to £3.7 million.
The previous set of accounts showed a loss of £4 million on a turnover of £6.6 million. Player sales of £5.8 million meant they made a profit of £1.8 million. They sold four players the season we beat them in the playoff final. Two going for £2M plus.
They have a similar gambling attitude to each season as Derby and Brentford with the owners willing to bankroll massive debt and the hope they will sell players or get to the promised land.
Fleetwood posted similar figures, Cambridge might look out of place in the top half but have just spent £4.5m buying their ground back so they can spend more money doing it up, Exeter and and posh have done well on selling players, the latter by buying at some expense great lower league prospects and having the ability to say no to lesser offers.
I'd say the only thing that stops us selling Mehmeti for £5m might be one club offering £1.5m and no more and us seriously having to weigh that up.
People also don't seem to realise that it's not only player wages and fees, all the support services and staff cost and having 29/20/35000 fans a week makes a huge difference to the treatment, facilities and staff available and their choice of youth prospects. We've done brilliant for a decade due to hard work, yes - we got promoted on a shoe string the first time but we also lost £500k a year, subsequently reduced the playing budget, took a pay day loan from a prospective owner who turned out to not be interested, and could barely get a poster printed as we owed money all over town and the bank weren't going to give us anymore.
We've got two options, stay on the path and hope we can break even with Rob topping up or investing, where possible with a bit of belief in overall growth or find some other mug with real intent to piss away £5m plus and more that they'll almost certainly never see again. Form an orderly queue with your chequebooks out.
Btw If Ibe 's career had headed downwards while out on loan before Bournemouth found buying expensive Liverpool youth teamers to be in vogue we'd still owe Sharkey every penny of sell on fees for decades and have that debt hanging over us.
Or worse if he'd hoodwinked people into building that stadium, we'll just look at Coventry.
Just like the last time you mentioned Rob Couhig 'topping up' the budget I'll point out that there's absolutely no evidence that he has or is doing so. He provided an initial loan ahead of purchase which I suspect (though don't know) was repaid as soon as the Championship monies poured in. We don't have any evidence he's continued to invest or indeed has the funds to do so. There's a strong possibility he and his family are taking significant amounts from the club in consultancy fees / salaries / dividends - but again we don't know that because that information isn't in the public domain.
I think you've misread my intent, almost certainly on purpose. In addition to paying off the other lots loan, and clearing all debt on completion, when they took over they restored Ainsworths budget that had been cut and Fred appeared immediately and we went up. While I don't know the detail financially I haven't personally been asked to chip in for a while and I think it's inconceivable that we'd have been discussing exit roads and expanded facilities if we were still trust owned. If they are purely reinvesting finds from the championship year, I don't really see a problem there. If we hadn't gone up or they couldn't turn around losses they'd be responsible for debt.
Not sure where we are with registered accounts tbh , others might, The trust own 25% of the club , I'd imagine they see financial information and would notice any consultancy fees. Also find it difficult to believe you could asset strip or weedle out enough money from loss making L1 football club to justify either the purchase price or hours spent working.
Once again you have cast aspersions on our owners when, by your own admission, you don’t have any evidence that Rob and his family are taking significant amounts from the club in consultancy fees etc. If any businessman wanted to make a profit by taking over a company the very last thing he would do is buy a football club, let alone one in the lower divisions. As the saying goes: the easiest way to become a millionaire is to start with £5m and buy a football club.
And once again you've chosen to comment on one of my posts, despite, apparently, having no interest in my opinions. Is your retirement really so dull, Alan?
As you say, I pointed out very clearly that the Couhigs taking money out of the club rather than putting it in was a strong possibility rather than statement of fact. The only fact is that the information is not in the public domain; everything else is speculation.
If you would allow me one further comment, I would say that I find it amusing you lecture others on the need for high standards in journalism, critiquing others for a lack of training. I'd be interested to hear what training course teaches reporters to take what those in authority say without questioning it or holding power to account.
making up accusations against those in authority with no evidence to support them and then trying to hide behind "strong possibility" rather than "statement of fact" is not holding power to account @aloysius. If you have any evidence for any of your strong possibilities, you are welcome to share. Otherwise silence is perhaps better.
I'm not sure I'm trying to hide, Dev. We'll see how transparent the club are about monies out when the annual accounts are published.
I didn’t say that at all. If you are as clever as you clearly think you are, you will know that I posted I am always civil to posters whose opinion I respect and you don’t fall into that category. FYI I have not retired and my life is far from dull, but thanks for your concern. I would have thought a person as knowledgeable as yourself would know the difference between not questioning those in authority and making snide innuendos that you are unable to substantiate.
I find most of @aloysius’s posts highly amusing. He (she/they) clearly look at the world through a different lens which I find quite interesting.
They also present their view in a relatively articulate way (albeit occasionally indulging in hyberbole - see “strong possibility…)”
I think it helps any debate to include alternative (considered - as opposed to the ‘we’re shit, ahhh’ we get from the odd poster) view from both ends of the spectrum.
They also clearly have a sense of humour and don’t flounce off into the distance at any signs of gentle piss-taking.
constructive criticism is fine of course. My jury on the Couhigs will remain out until they have managed through a difficult period. Gareth hasn’t allowed them to be tested yet.
but making shit up that could be quite damaging if believed and presenting it as a “strong possibility” is not big or clever in my view. It is one of the big negatives of the internet age and should be called out in my view.
@aloysius claims there is a strong possibility that the Couhigs are extracting large sums of money in dividends, salaries or consultancy fees.
Any dividend would also need to be paid to the trust and there is no evidence this has taken place. Besides the state of the clubs balance sheet would make any such dividend illegal.
it is reasonable to think that Couhig junior who I believe works pretty much full time on the club is paid a salary. That and any fees paid to the rest of the family would be known to the WWFC board. It feels incredibly unlikely that the Trust main board directors would allow excessive amounts to happen without protest and ultimately resignation.
So I am calling @aloysius “strong possibility” as bullshit
I agree 100% with what you say about the use of “strong possibility” @DevC but at the same time disagree with (how I see) the tone of your response (which comes over to me as a personal attack)
The use of the phrase clearly needs to have “I think there is a… “ in front of it to make it remotely viable, but it’s absence in an open debate shouldn’t really lead to people taking quite as much umbrage as they appear to.
it’s fair (and appropriate in my view) to challenge that comment (as it’s basically just an unsupported opinion) but we don’t really know or understand how it was meant to be interpreted.
For example it could be just a poorly worded ‘personal opinion’ or it could be a deliberately provocative comment designed to stimulate open discussion and help reach a more considered consensual understanding of where we are with the issue.
I think, in the internet/social media age, we do need to be a little less quick to take offence at views* that may differ from ours.
*Obviously exceptions for racist, sexist, homophobic, Peterborough supporting journalists, etc.
Alternatively, we don't have any evidence that they're taking significant amounts from the club, and there's a strong possibility that they are topping up the budget.
About them signings. Who do we think is realistic for January then?
Exactly :)
I genuinely think we have everyone we need in the building. We just need them to be fit!
If Vokes, Hanlan or both remain out for long patches others will have chances they need to take or that will be the main focus one way or another.