@StrongestTeam said:
If Derby have taken deductions from player and staff salarys for Tax and NI and then not passed them on to HMRC it's not a big stretch to see that as theft or fraud. I'd be interested to know wether the staff are considered to have individually paid their contributions, particularly for National Insurance or if they are asked to make this up at some stage as people who take the a working break are. If I'd paid my NI but HMRC didn't recognize that as they never received it I'd certainly be upset with my employer. The comparison with commercial lenders while a stretch isn't entirely without basis either as other clubs will have borrowed to pay their dues in recent times.
Not paying debt due to HMRC on time is not legally theft or fraud. It has no effect on employees NI or tax records. When cash flow is tight and the business is struggling to pay wages and critical suppliers, it would be one of the first places I would look to preserve cash and get through the month.
In an administration or liquidation, HMRC has the same dilemma as other creditors. It wants the maximum possible pay out even if it has to wait a while. Sometimes accepting 25% from an arrangement is better than holding out and possibly getting nothing from a liquidation.
I'm sure there must be some legislation around protecting these payments otherwise dodgy employers would do it all the time
@Wendoverman said: @Raminpeace and the tax? It's not JUST a bit of silly overspending by that slightly naughty Mel is it?
The tax is appalling. Agreed. It wasn't "a bit of silly overspending". Mel spent almost twice what we got in income which was reckless. At the start of his reign in 2015, he informed the EFL of the amortisation change. It was not news to them. Why did they do absolutely nothing about it until 2019 when Gibson threatened to sue them for in excess of £100M?
‘Kinnell! I’d been listening to the interview with Al Hamadi, the typeface is too small for my ailing eyes and I read it as ‘Ali’. There really is little hope!
@Wendoverman said: @Raminpeace and the tax? It's not JUST a bit of silly overspending by that slightly naughty Mel is it?
The tax is appalling. Agreed. It wasn't "a bit of silly overspending". Mel spent almost twice what we got in income which was reckless. At the start of his reign in 2015, he informed the EFL of the amortisation change. It was not news to them. Why did they do absolutely nothing about it until 2019 when Gibson threatened to sue them for in excess of £100M?
@Raminpeace Did Morris change Derbys method of amortisation in an attempt to game the system.
@Raminpeace - to try to address some of the points you've raised:
The EFL’s P&S Rules require clubs to submit annual accounts that comply with all legal/regulatory requirements – including applicable accounting standards (FRS 102).
The Disciplinary Commission/League Arbitration Panel determined that DCFC failed to do so in three consecutive years (2016 - 2018) on the basis that (1) the amortisation policy employed by DCFC was non-compliant with FRS 102 requirements and (2) DCFC had also failed to disclose its amortisation policy adequately in its financial statements (of itself a further non-compliance with FRS 102).
For those breaches, the DC fined DCFC £100k and ordered it to submit compliant accounts for 2016 - 2018 by 18 August 2021. DCFC failed to comply with that order.
The MFC legal proceedings instituted against the EFL in September 2019 were about the stadium sale and not the amortisation issue.
Re: your suggestion that the EFL was aware of DCFC’s amortisation policy from 2015 – as mentioned above, one of DCFC’s proven breaches of the P&S Rules was that it failed to disclose its amortisation policy adequately in its financial statements. The LAP said that the explanations in DCFC’s accounts were “at best confusing and at worst seriously misleading”. Despite the EFL starting formal disciplinary proceedings against DCFC in January 2020, the DC found that it was only very shortly before the original hearing (July 2020) that the true factual picture about DCFC’s amortisation policy emerged and stated that DCFC could have clarified the position much earlier than it did.
There really isn’t anyone outside of DCFC to blame for DCFC’s current situation.
Excellent points @Azzurro, I wonder whether it will change @Raminpeace’s opinion that the EFL are responsible for this mess.
Ps @Raminpeace did you get anywhere with your quest to substantiate your claim that the EFL are looking to prevent clubs from seeking redress in the future in circumstances such as these?
DCFC administrators looking for £5 million (non refundable) from would-be owners as a gesture of good faith. Enough to ensure they complete the season perhaps?
A passing reference to the Nottingham Forest owner here, for those whose interest in the stewardship of East Midlands football clubs has been piqued by the Derby affair.
Remember the name, I've a feeling he might become quite well known at some point.
@eric_plant Ahhh, this is what you meant when you asked me about it some time ago. I get you. Glass houses and all that I suppose. Your support of blameless Derby fans in the face of the hysterical Gasroom posters trying to kill their club does you great credit.
I feel sorry for all supporters of clubs who have been managed badly by terrible owners. Derby's won't be the last set of supporters that need sympathy unfortunately.
Still no news regarding a settlement with us then. Maybe now that they have reached agreement with Boro, they think they can just play hardball with us.
Three deadlines mentioned in that article, Wednesday and Thursday of last week and Monday of this week. One can surely be forgiven for feeling a bit cynical about how dead the line is, if Derby can’t demonstrate that they can fund the remainder of the season today the EFL will give tuem more time.
Comments
Dodgy employers? In Great Britain? Surely not.
The tax is appalling. Agreed. It wasn't "a bit of silly overspending". Mel spent almost twice what we got in income which was reckless. At the start of his reign in 2015, he informed the EFL of the amortisation change. It was not news to them. Why did they do absolutely nothing about it until 2019 when Gibson threatened to sue them for in excess of £100M?
Chill out everyone, Peter Ridsdale is a recently appointed EFL director.
Where do I know his name from?
Well, at least he seems to have some experience of dealing with liquidating company's which owe £?00,000's
That was the joke
I did that at the time but it made no sense. Not going to lose sleep but I do hate not ‘getting’ it!
@micra Replace 'much' with 'all' in the sentence 'Much of the blame for the current situation lies with Mel overspending'.
Hope it was worth the wait!!!
‘Kinnell! I’d been listening to the interview with Al Hamadi, the typeface is too small for my ailing eyes and I read it as ‘Ali’. There really is little hope!
@Raminpeace Did Morris change Derbys method of amortisation in an attempt to game the system.
lmao.
@Raminpeace - to try to address some of the points you've raised:
The EFL’s P&S Rules require clubs to submit annual accounts that comply with all legal/regulatory requirements – including applicable accounting standards (FRS 102).
The Disciplinary Commission/League Arbitration Panel determined that DCFC failed to do so in three consecutive years (2016 - 2018) on the basis that (1) the amortisation policy employed by DCFC was non-compliant with FRS 102 requirements and (2) DCFC had also failed to disclose its amortisation policy adequately in its financial statements (of itself a further non-compliance with FRS 102).
For those breaches, the DC fined DCFC £100k and ordered it to submit compliant accounts for 2016 - 2018 by 18 August 2021. DCFC failed to comply with that order.
The MFC legal proceedings instituted against the EFL in September 2019 were about the stadium sale and not the amortisation issue.
Re: your suggestion that the EFL was aware of DCFC’s amortisation policy from 2015 – as mentioned above, one of DCFC’s proven breaches of the P&S Rules was that it failed to disclose its amortisation policy adequately in its financial statements. The LAP said that the explanations in DCFC’s accounts were “at best confusing and at worst seriously misleading”. Despite the EFL starting formal disciplinary proceedings against DCFC in January 2020, the DC found that it was only very shortly before the original hearing (July 2020) that the true factual picture about DCFC’s amortisation policy emerged and stated that DCFC could have clarified the position much earlier than it did.
There really isn’t anyone outside of DCFC to blame for DCFC’s current situation.
Thanks @Azzurro an excellent post .
Excellent points @Azzurro, I wonder whether it will change @Raminpeace’s opinion that the EFL are responsible for this mess.
Ps @Raminpeace did you get anywhere with your quest to substantiate your claim that the EFL are looking to prevent clubs from seeking redress in the future in circumstances such as these?
DCFC administrators looking for £5 million (non refundable) from would-be owners as a gesture of good faith. Enough to ensure they complete the season perhaps?
https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/derby-county-major-deposit-takeover-6692215
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/60483819
A passing reference to the Nottingham Forest owner here, for those whose interest in the stewardship of East Midlands football clubs has been piqued by the Derby affair.
Remember the name, I've a feeling he might become quite well known at some point.
@eric_plant Ahhh, this is what you meant when you asked me about it some time ago. I get you. Glass houses and all that I suppose. Your support of blameless Derby fans in the face of the hysterical Gasroom posters trying to kill their club does you great credit.
I feel sorry for all supporters of clubs who have been managed badly by terrible owners. Derby's won't be the last set of supporters that need sympathy unfortunately.
It might even be us one day.
What's the latest on all of this?
I keep reading..."days until Derby go into extinction".
How many days exactly?
https://www.skysports.com/football/news/30964/12550534/derby-countys-administrators-review-formal-bids-following-wednesdays-deadline-to-buy-club
Still no news regarding a settlement with us then. Maybe now that they have reached agreement with Boro, they think they can just play hardball with us.
Have we heard anything about a settlement yet?
Is the final deadline tomorrow 28th Feb? Or is there another final deadline?
Deadline was Wednesday (see article linked above)
Three deadlines mentioned in that article, Wednesday and Thursday of last week and Monday of this week. One can surely be forgiven for feeling a bit cynical about how dead the line is, if Derby can’t demonstrate that they can fund the remainder of the season today the EFL will give tuem more time.
Never mind, FIFA would let them play against Russia. Football is so corrupt.
Update: no update
If the admins had the evidence, surely they would have provided it by now?
Also, the EFL: where deadlines are actually lifelines.
“I love deadlines. I love the whooshing noise they make as they go by.” - Douglas Adams