Relegation ultimately has to be sustainable or will have to go in favour of flabby fixed leagues.
Some very simple rules could stop clubs spending every penny they have, and some they'll never have, on players regardless of their incomes.
Derby would obviously employ some lawyers at even more cost to try and avoid them.
We are so lucky to have the present owners and playing side management. Dream team. Great credit is due also to Trevor Stroud and his Trust Board colleagues at the time of the takeover. The outcome has been even better than it looked like being at the time. Getting back our rightful place in the Championship would be the proverbial icing on the cake!
Anybody happen to know whether he's picked that up from Companies House, or through a moody source? I've not received my founder shareholder copy from the club yet and didn't until March last year. Hopefully soon.
@micra said: @DevC would probably find flaws but that might in turn make him happy of course !
Surely you don't need enough cash in the bank to cover your debt, unless payment of the debt in full is due?
I've never had enough money in the back to pay off my mortgage in full and, so far at least, I'm still financially ok.
@micra said: @DevC would probably find flaws but that might in turn make him happy of course !
Surely you don't need enough cash in the bank to cover your debt, unless payment of the debt in full is due?
I've never had enough money in the back to pay off my mortgage in full and, so far at least, I'm still financially ok.
There is a figure in the tweeted section that refers to debt due in the next 12 months, more than that seems to be in hand already which puts us in a good position in fairly uncertain times, but yes, as long as we're likely to make enough income to cover outgoings it's generally fine.
As long as you're likely to have (or earn) enough £ to cover your mortgage payments and any other outgoings you'll be fine. Nobody expects you to have enough cash in reserve to pay it all back today. It's secured on your house do you'd probably have to remortgage or sell if it was demanded back for any reason.
Clubs that have no reserves and make hopeful guesses about future income are the ones that tend to go badly tits up.
Additionally our model (or our reality anyway) pre-takeover was cut back to try and pin losses to about £500k a year with debts already at stretching point and hope for cup run, player sales or donations, or loans of dubious intent to make up the shortfall.
We seem to be immeasurably better of at the moment, due to our year in the Championship and owners clearing debts.
I know some posters wanted us to spend more on players rather than infrastructure but we at least have the choice now. Well done to all involved.
@StrongestTeam I think that losses-of-about-£500k-model is about right. I'd imagine that in the current year, though, we'd lose something up to 3 times that. If the investment in salaries ultimately leads us to another season in the Championship, then great, but if not, we'll presumably have to cut our cloth again for life in League One.
Would be good to see the full accounts, not least to get a sense of what happened with the business interruption insurance payout and whether it was paid out in 20/21 or is still to come.
@our_frank I doubt our losses this year will be that high, because of the parachute payment on relegation from the Championship. I'm sure @ReturnToSenda will have the precise figure, but isn't it around £0.5 mill? With net reserves of £996K, I reckon prudent owners would allow current levels of spending for this season and next at least before they seriously thought about reining in the budget.
@ReturnToSenda said:
Wait, when did I become the money man? I haven't got a clue about those kinds of numbers!
'If a soccer fan buys three pies at £8, two pies at £4 and three beefy drinks at £2 every home game...how many matches will he need to attend to ensure his team buys The Player to ensure promotion but without his club having to pay any tax?'
@Wendoverman Given that we still have accumulated losses of £4.37 million, the answer to your maths is that the number of matches a fanbase of approximately 4,500 would have to attend could not be achieved before each and every one of them died with morbid obesity.
The answer @OakwoodExile is simply to halve the size of the pies and double the price. I'm not sure the beefy drinks will have a significant effect on obesity levels.
@OakwoodExile I think you've gone a little bit Steve Evans there! When Evans suggested that it was £5m, I think the Gasman worked out it was more like £230k.
@OakwoodExile said: @Wendoverman Given that we still have accumulated losses of £4.37 million, the answer to your maths is that the number of matches a fanbase of approximately 4,500 would have to attend could not be achieved before each and every one of them died with morbid obesity.
Of the limited bits of information that you can glean from the accounts, it is interesting to see that there are some intangible assets on the balance sheet. This represents the cost of transfer fees paid for players and are then written off over the length of the player(s) contracts.* This shows transfer fees paid of £207,500. Presumably this would be Uche and Horgan??
The balance sheet also shows liabilities due in more than 1 year of £1.6m. I am guessing this is loans from Bobby C? Or some kind of EFL/Covid loan?
unless of course you take Derby's _alternative _ approach to amortisation
@Rasputin said:
Of the limited bits of information that you can glean from the accounts, it is interesting to see that there are some intangible assets on the balance sheet. This represents the cost of transfer fees paid for players and are then written off over the length of the player(s) contracts.* This shows transfer fees paid of £207,500. Presumably this would be Uche and Horgan??
The balance sheet also shows liabilities due in more than 1 year of £1.6m. I am guessing this is loans from Bobby C? Or some kind of EFL/Covid loan?
unless of course you take Derby's _alternative _ approach to amortisation
In the interview above Rob says that the only debt left is trading debt , or things on 60, 90 day etc agreed payment terms, stock etc rather than anything structural.
Interesting listen , he's very relaxed in Neil Harman's company and opens up on Derby, his opinions on the review etc, don't agree with all of it but interested in his idea that teams should maybe all be paid the same TV money within a division and only be allowed to spend that on playing staff, levelling the field and encouraging spending on facilities and upkeep instead.
What kind of cretin can't understand there were still playoffs that were played our after that decision?
Still surprises me how Rotherham escaped any sort of whisper when they surely were going to lose 2nd spot with the way momentum was going, yet ended up being gifted promotion early.
We still had to earn ours.
Comments
Relegation ultimately has to be sustainable or will have to go in favour of flabby fixed leagues.
Some very simple rules could stop clubs spending every penny they have, and some they'll never have, on players regardless of their incomes.
Derby would obviously employ some lawyers at even more cost to try and avoid them.
We are so lucky to have the present owners and playing side management. Dream team. Great credit is due also to Trevor Stroud and his Trust Board colleagues at the time of the takeover. The outcome has been even better than it looked like being at the time. Getting back our rightful place in the Championship would be the proverbial icing on the cake!
Anybody happen to know whether he's picked that up from Companies House, or through a moody source? I've not received my founder shareholder copy from the club yet and didn't until March last year. Hopefully soon.
Anyway, a very welcome return to solvency.
and answering my own question ... they are on the Companies House site, but minus the P&L account again.
I know this risks making me sound like Dev, but reading that balance sheet makes me happy.
@DevC would probably find flaws but that might in turn make him happy of course !
I like having a club to support, whatever the league position.
Surely you don't need enough cash in the bank to cover your debt, unless payment of the debt in full is due?
I've never had enough money in the back to pay off my mortgage in full and, so far at least, I'm still financially ok.
There is a figure in the tweeted section that refers to debt due in the next 12 months, more than that seems to be in hand already which puts us in a good position in fairly uncertain times, but yes, as long as we're likely to make enough income to cover outgoings it's generally fine.
As long as you're likely to have (or earn) enough £ to cover your mortgage payments and any other outgoings you'll be fine. Nobody expects you to have enough cash in reserve to pay it all back today. It's secured on your house do you'd probably have to remortgage or sell if it was demanded back for any reason.
Clubs that have no reserves and make hopeful guesses about future income are the ones that tend to go badly tits up.
Additionally our model (or our reality anyway) pre-takeover was cut back to try and pin losses to about £500k a year with debts already at stretching point and hope for cup run, player sales or donations, or loans of dubious intent to make up the shortfall.
We seem to be immeasurably better of at the moment, due to our year in the Championship and owners clearing debts.
I know some posters wanted us to spend more on players rather than infrastructure but we at least have the choice now. Well done to all involved.
@StrongestTeam I think that losses-of-about-£500k-model is about right. I'd imagine that in the current year, though, we'd lose something up to 3 times that. If the investment in salaries ultimately leads us to another season in the Championship, then great, but if not, we'll presumably have to cut our cloth again for life in League One.
Would be good to see the full accounts, not least to get a sense of what happened with the business interruption insurance payout and whether it was paid out in 20/21 or is still to come.
@our_frank I doubt our losses this year will be that high, because of the parachute payment on relegation from the Championship. I'm sure @ReturnToSenda will have the precise figure, but isn't it around £0.5 mill? With net reserves of £996K, I reckon prudent owners would allow current levels of spending for this season and next at least before they seriously thought about reining in the budget.
Wait, when did I become the money man? I haven't got a clue about those kinds of numbers!
'If a soccer fan buys three pies at £8, two pies at £4 and three beefy drinks at £2 every home game...how many matches will he need to attend to ensure his team buys The Player to ensure promotion but without his club having to pay any tax?'
@Wendoverman Given that we still have accumulated losses of £4.37 million, the answer to your maths is that the number of matches a fanbase of approximately 4,500 would have to attend could not be achieved before each and every one of them died with morbid obesity.
The answer @OakwoodExile is simply to halve the size of the pies and double the price. I'm not sure the beefy drinks will have a significant effect on obesity levels.
@OakwoodExile I think you've gone a little bit Steve Evans there! When Evans suggested that it was £5m, I think the Gasman worked out it was more like £230k.
We're going to need wider turnstiles...
@our_frank Did you miss the “0,”?
Of the limited bits of information that you can glean from the accounts, it is interesting to see that there are some intangible assets on the balance sheet. This represents the cost of transfer fees paid for players and are then written off over the length of the player(s) contracts.* This shows transfer fees paid of £207,500. Presumably this would be Uche and Horgan??
The balance sheet also shows liabilities due in more than 1 year of £1.6m. I am guessing this is loans from Bobby C? Or some kind of EFL/Covid loan?
In the interview above Rob says that the only debt left is trading debt , or things on 60, 90 day etc agreed payment terms, stock etc rather than anything structural.
Interesting listen , he's very relaxed in Neil Harman's company and opens up on Derby, his opinions on the review etc, don't agree with all of it but interested in his idea that teams should maybe all be paid the same TV money within a division and only be allowed to spend that on playing staff, levelling the field and encouraging spending on facilities and upkeep instead.
In Robs interview on the official one of the first things he said was that he was here to finalise the claim against Derby.
Seems Rob has upset (presumably, going by his profile)) Derby's PA guy...
What kind of cretin can't understand there were still playoffs that were played our after that decision?
Still surprises me how Rotherham escaped any sort of whisper when they surely were going to lose 2nd spot with the way momentum was going, yet ended up being gifted promotion early.
We still had to earn ours.
That bloke has accused Rob of wanting Derby to liquidate. Strange, cause he seemed to want quite the opposite... https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/derby-county-wycombe-middlesbrough-efl-6347739
If that's really Derby's PR guy then is it any wonder he hasn't got a grip on the reality of how season 19/2020 came to an end?
He certainly hasn't got a sense of the reality of what Derby have done over several seasons.
*PA - which I don't think entails understanding things, just shouting about them
If that really is Derby's PR guy, based on that tweet it's safe to assume he's never done any previous PR in his life.