@Chris said:
I'm not convinced that an auditor being a supporter of a club is sufficient for there to be a conflict of interest.
Agreed, will be lots of examples of local companies assisting teams in all sorts of ways, question isn't really wether they'll be more likely to help the team than the league or any other club, there are set rules about how they have to carry out their role too and penalties for not doing so. Any auditor who turned a blind eye to accounting irregularities because they support Derby would be in massive problems should they be taken over for example as was expected.
@Chris said:
I'm not convinced that an auditor being a supporter of a club is sufficient for there to be a conflict of interest.
Agreed, will be lots of examples of local companies assisting teams in all sorts of ways, question isn't really wether they'll be more likely to help the team than the league or any other club, there are set rules about how they have to carry out their role too and penalties for not doing so. Any auditor who turned a blind eye to accounting irregularities because they support Derby would be in massive problems should they be taken over for example as was expected.
I disagree this isn’t mates rates on a new club kitchen, it’s an official inspection of the clubs accounts with the club changing their accounting policy in 2017. I don’t know why they signed off these accounts and if it was an irregularity or interpretation of a grey area but it can’t be best practice to have your auditor with an emotional interest in whether the club thrives or not and that goes for us as well as any other club.
Smith Cooper Corporate Finance provided deal advice to existing director Mel Morris on the acquisition of Derby County Football Club Ltd from North American partners LP, USA, for an undisclosed sum. (Source: Smith Cooper website)
Life-long Derby fan Mel Morris, a local businessman recognised as one of the UK’s top serial Tech entrepreneurs, who bought a 22 percent stake in the Club in 2014 has now become the sole owner. The acquisition of Derby County follows Morris’ recent investments in BriefYourMarket.com, Technology Merchant Bank and Restoration Partners Limited.
Andrew Delve, of Smith Cooper, who has acted for Mel Morris for over 20 years and acted on all of his recent investments and sales of Prevx and uDate commented: “Mel is a businessman of the highest calibre and his purchase of Derby County brings together his passion for both business and football, the result of which can only be a good thing for the Club, fans and businesses of Derby. I have worked with Mel on various investments and acquisitions over the past 20 years, but this transaction has carried additional excitement due to both its local significance, my own affection for Derby County and Smith Cooper’s longstanding relationship and sponsorship of the Club.”
Makes you wonder what % of fees earned by Mr. Delve and Smith Cooper are generated by Mr. Mel Morris and if that influenced the audit.
@Chris said:
I'm not convinced that an auditor being a supporter of a club is sufficient for there to be a conflict of interest.
Are you being serious? What do you think Derby fans would say if the auditor was a Wycombe fan? In the interests of neutrality he should step aside and be replaced to avoid any accusations of conflict of interest.
@Chris said:
I'm not convinced that an auditor being a supporter of a club is sufficient for there to be a conflict of interest.
Are you being serious? What do you think Derby fans would say if the auditor was a Wycombe fan? In the interests of neutrality he should step aside and be replaced to avoid any accusations of conflict of interest.
Probably fair to add I don't think Derby's choice of accounting tool was illegal on its own, it the fact it goes against the league's rules , and is arguably almost certainly only used to get round FFP that is in question. I'm not sure if Auditors should be aware, although if they were in the financial sector I know they would be expected to be aware of all regulatory frameworks that apply.
I would say that it probably was illegal on its own, or at least that the accounts as presented didn't give "a true and fair view". I think you could legitimately depart from straight line amortisation over the life of the relevant contracts if you put an appropriate amount of effort into an alternative method of valuation. But as I understand it DCFC just took values from some website and all were shown to be wildly overstated. In view of the significance of the relevant assets, such a cavalier approach couldn't be justified.
Mr Delve's C.V. on his webpage at Cooper Smith states he became a qualified Chartered Accountant in August 2012 and says (see my post above) he has worked with Mr. Morris 'over the past 20 years.'
@Chris said:
I'm not convinced that an auditor being a supporter of a club is sufficient for there to be a conflict of interest.
Are you being serious? What do you think Derby fans would say if the auditor was a Wycombe fan? In the interests of neutrality he should step aside and be replaced to avoid any accusations of conflict of interest.
Have you ever commentated on Wycombe/Liverpool matches?
@Chris said:
I'm not convinced that an auditor being a supporter of a club is sufficient for there to be a conflict of interest.
Are you being serious? What do you think Derby fans would say if the auditor was a Wycombe fan? In the interests of neutrality he should step aside and be replaced to avoid any accusations of conflict of interest.
Have you ever commentated on Wycombe/Liverpool matches?
Bizarre comparison. Firstly, the answer is no. We’ve only played them once, and if I’d been asked to work on the game I would have politely declined. Secondly, this issue involves the immediate future of two clubs, millions of pounds and the possibility of legal action. A completely different and more serious scanario.
@glasshalffull has been great on Wycombe games I have heard. But even if he was as biased or inaccurate as possible, he could not do any damage to any rival clubs, unlike financial cheating.
@Chris said:
I'm not convinced that an auditor being a supporter of a club is sufficient for there to be a conflict of interest.
Are you being serious? What do you think Derby fans would say if the auditor was a Wycombe fan? In the interests of neutrality he should step aside and be replaced to avoid any accusations of conflict of interest.
Have you ever commentated on Wycombe/Liverpool matches?
Commentating on a game is hardly the same as financially auditing a club.
Quick bit of delving (see what I did there?) into Companies House records shows that James Delve was born in October 1985 so all things being normal would have left school in summer 2004. Normally uni takes a minimum three years but looks like he took a little longer (year or two off travelling?, language degree? masters?) and he joined Smith Cooper in 2009. He took three years (which is standard time) to qualify as a Chartered Accountant with them and then has worked his way up to partner.
Nothing unusual in any of that.
Smith Rowe have a turnover of around £14m - so not insignificant.
No chartered accountant at age 35 is going to risk his professional practising license by deliberately falsifying accounts just for a football team he may support.
@Chris said:
I'm not convinced that an auditor being a supporter of a club is sufficient for there to be a conflict of interest.
They don't even let refs be in charge of games involving teams from the place they're from, so a fan being involved in their own club's audit is definitely less than ideal for this kind of situation.
@Chris said:
I'm not convinced that an auditor being a supporter of a club is sufficient for there to be a conflict of interest.
They don't even let refs be in charge of games involving teams from the place they're from, so a fan being involved in their own club's audit is definitely less than ideal for this kind of situation.
@DevC said:
Quick bit of delving (see what I did there?) into Companies House records shows that James Delve was born in October 1985 …..
No chartered accountant at age 35 is going to risk his professional practising license by deliberately falsifying accounts just for a football team he may support.
earlier @nicecarrots said “ Andrew Delve, of Smith Cooper, who has acted for Mel Morris for over 20 years and acted on all of his recent investments and sales of Prevx and uDate”
Who is the auditor concerned here? James or Andrew?
Not that it makes too much difference. It would still be prudent in my view for Derby to remove any accusation of bias by using a truly independent firm of accountants for their next submission.
In the mean time we, and the football league clubs in general, need to know what league each club will play in next season.
James is the auditor who signed off the 2018 accounts. Andrew is presumably his dad, and the former chairman of Smith Cooper, and signed off the 2017 accounts.
Exactly the point made by Carrickblue. No one is suggesting that this chap is in any way unprofessional or accusing him of being potentially underhand in his auditing process, just that for the removal of any doubt it would surely be better if a completely independent person was to carry out the process.
I’m still enjoying reading the Derby forum on a daily basis and this has to be one of my favourite posts - well, two posts actually. Both from the same author.
Wycombe's owner is an opportunist, the irony, for me, and this may not be popular, is that if any side should stay up at our expense, it is Rotherham. They, along with Wednesday & us, were the only other sides in with a realistic chance of survival on the final day, not Wycombe, who had a vastly inferior Goal Difference. They came within 5 minutes of achieving survival themselves, and it took an equalizer and a 6pts deduction to ensure we stopped up. Rotherham did call off games due to Covid 19, playing 3x in March, but they played 9x in April (Wycombe 6x) and 3x in May (2x for the rest of the division). How does that ensure the integrity of a competition? I'm surprised by how little fuss Rotherham have made, perhaps the final standings render this pointless, but on a moral level, they competed until the very end & actually took maximum points off us.
When a majority of the posters who responded let them know that this was a stupid idea, they added the following:
Yeah, I know the league table is as it stands with Wycombe, 22nd & it's not going to change, but over the whole season, they were never really in the battle for survival and they are deceiving themselves if they think otherwise. 5W in 35, 6W in the last 11, they played with the handbrake off. I find it dishonest that the Wycombe owner is dressing it up as if they were pipped at the post. If they stop up at our expense, so be it. It's just a personal view that Rotherham were the more competitive side throughout the season.
@DevC said:
Quick bit of delving (see what I did there?) into Companies House records shows that James Delve was born in October 1985 so all things being normal would have left school in summer 2004. Normally uni takes a minimum three years but looks like he took a little longer (year or two off travelling?, language degree? masters?) and he joined Smith Cooper in 2009. He took three years (which is standard time) to qualify as a Chartered Accountant with them and then has worked his way up to partner.
Nothing unusual in any of that.
Smith Rowe have a turnover of around £14m - so not insignificant.
No chartered accountant at age 35 is going to risk his professional practising license by deliberately falsifying accounts just for a football team he may support.
>
No obvious conspiracy here.
I think your getting confused no one is accused of falsifying accounts if that was the case the EFL would be the last of his worries. Derby changed their method of calculating player amortisation in 2017 the method they chose to do it altered the figures for profit and sustainability and may have contravened the EFLs FFP rules and this is what they have been fined for. Smith Cooper as auditors signed off those accounts. Should they have done so or advised their client to differently that is the question
@Gary said:
I’m still enjoying reading the Derby forum on a daily basis and this has to be one of my favourite posts - well, two posts actually. Both from the same author.
Wycombe's owner is an opportunist, the irony, for me, and this may not be popular, is that if any side should stay up at our expense, it is Rotherham. They, along with Wednesday & us, were the only other sides in with a realistic chance of survival on the final day, not Wycombe, who had a vastly inferior Goal Difference. They came within 5 minutes of achieving survival themselves, and it took an equalizer and a 6pts deduction to ensure we stopped up. Rotherham did call off games due to Covid 19, playing 3x in March, but they played 9x in April (Wycombe 6x) and 3x in May (2x for the rest of the division). How does that ensure the integrity of a competition? I'm surprised by how little fuss Rotherham have made, perhaps the final standings render this pointless, but on a moral level, they competed until the very end & actually took maximum points off us.
When a majority of the posters who responded let them know that this was a stupid idea, they added the following:
Yeah, I know the league table is as it stands with Wycombe, 22nd & it's not going to change, but over the whole season, they were never really in the battle for survival and they are deceiving themselves if they think otherwise. 5W in 35, 6W in the last 11, they played with the handbrake off. I find it dishonest that the Wycombe owner is dressing it up as if they were pipped at the post. If they stop up at our expense, so be it. It's just a personal view that Rotherham were the more competitive side throughout the season.
Wow - echoes of Luton being the best side in L2 aside from those pesky points.
I would make the opposite argument anyway - we could have been on the beach for weeks, and Rotherham had something to play for till the last moment. To say we had better motivation for playing harder is a bit rich.
@NiceCarrots wasn't having a go. Was genuinely confused by the two names being quoted as the auditor. @Chris cleared it up by saying different people on different years.
Comments
Agreed, will be lots of examples of local companies assisting teams in all sorts of ways, question isn't really wether they'll be more likely to help the team than the league or any other club, there are set rules about how they have to carry out their role too and penalties for not doing so. Any auditor who turned a blind eye to accounting irregularities because they support Derby would be in massive problems should they be taken over for example as was expected.
I definitely think it is sufficient. Could they not find another auditor anywhere?
I disagree this isn’t mates rates on a new club kitchen, it’s an official inspection of the clubs accounts with the club changing their accounting policy in 2017. I don’t know why they signed off these accounts and if it was an irregularity or interpretation of a grey area but it can’t be best practice to have your auditor with an emotional interest in whether the club thrives or not and that goes for us as well as any other club.
Smith Cooper Corporate Finance provided deal advice to existing director Mel Morris on the acquisition of Derby County Football Club Ltd from North American partners LP, USA, for an undisclosed sum. (Source: Smith Cooper website)
Life-long Derby fan Mel Morris, a local businessman recognised as one of the UK’s top serial Tech entrepreneurs, who bought a 22 percent stake in the Club in 2014 has now become the sole owner. The acquisition of Derby County follows Morris’ recent investments in BriefYourMarket.com, Technology Merchant Bank and Restoration Partners Limited.
Andrew Delve, of Smith Cooper, who has acted for Mel Morris for over 20 years and acted on all of his recent investments and sales of Prevx and uDate commented: “Mel is a businessman of the highest calibre and his purchase of Derby County brings together his passion for both business and football, the result of which can only be a good thing for the Club, fans and businesses of Derby. I have worked with Mel on various investments and acquisitions over the past 20 years, but this transaction has carried additional excitement due to both its local significance, my own affection for Derby County and Smith Cooper’s longstanding relationship and sponsorship of the Club.”
Makes you wonder what % of fees earned by Mr. Delve and Smith Cooper are generated by Mr. Mel Morris and if that influenced the audit.
Are you being serious? What do you think Derby fans would say if the auditor was a Wycombe fan? In the interests of neutrality he should step aside and be replaced to avoid any accusations of conflict of interest.
Do we know Wycombe's auditor isn't a Wycombe fan?
Probably fair to add I don't think Derby's choice of accounting tool was illegal on its own, it the fact it goes against the league's rules , and is arguably almost certainly only used to get round FFP that is in question. I'm not sure if Auditors should be aware, although if they were in the financial sector I know they would be expected to be aware of all regulatory frameworks that apply.
I would say that it probably was illegal on its own, or at least that the accounts as presented didn't give "a true and fair view". I think you could legitimately depart from straight line amortisation over the life of the relevant contracts if you put an appropriate amount of effort into an alternative method of valuation. But as I understand it DCFC just took values from some website and all were shown to be wildly overstated. In view of the significance of the relevant assets, such a cavalier approach couldn't be justified.
Mr Delve's C.V. on his webpage at Cooper Smith states he became a qualified Chartered Accountant in August 2012 and says (see my post above) he has worked with Mr. Morris 'over the past 20 years.'
How do these two statements tally?
You can work in accountancy without being a qualified accountant, indeed I suspect you are required to have done before becoming chartered.
Have you ever commentated on Wycombe/Liverpool matches?
Bizarre comparison. Firstly, the answer is no. We’ve only played them once, and if I’d been asked to work on the game I would have politely declined. Secondly, this issue involves the immediate future of two clubs, millions of pounds and the possibility of legal action. A completely different and more serious scanario.
Wycombe or Liverpool, not Wycombe v Liverpool.
Makes no difference, same answer applies.
@glasshalffull has been great on Wycombe games I have heard. But even if he was as biased or inaccurate as possible, he could not do any damage to any rival clubs, unlike financial cheating.
Commentating on a game is hardly the same as financially auditing a club.
For one you don't have to be professionally regulated to be a commentator.
Quick bit of delving (see what I did there?) into Companies House records shows that James Delve was born in October 1985 so all things being normal would have left school in summer 2004. Normally uni takes a minimum three years but looks like he took a little longer (year or two off travelling?, language degree? masters?) and he joined Smith Cooper in 2009. He took three years (which is standard time) to qualify as a Chartered Accountant with them and then has worked his way up to partner.
Nothing unusual in any of that.
Smith Rowe have a turnover of around £14m - so not insignificant.
No chartered accountant at age 35 is going to risk his professional practising license by deliberately falsifying accounts just for a football team he may support.
No obvious conspiracy here.
They don't even let refs be in charge of games involving teams from the place they're from, so a fan being involved in their own club's audit is definitely less than ideal for this kind of situation.
It's fine, there are other safeguards in place.
earlier @nicecarrots said “ Andrew Delve, of Smith Cooper, who has acted for Mel Morris for over 20 years and acted on all of his recent investments and sales of Prevx and uDate”
Who is the auditor concerned here? James or Andrew?
Not that it makes too much difference. It would still be prudent in my view for Derby to remove any accusation of bias by using a truly independent firm of accountants for their next submission.
In the mean time we, and the football league clubs in general, need to know what league each club will play in next season.
James is the auditor who signed off the 2018 accounts. Andrew is presumably his dad, and the former chairman of Smith Cooper, and signed off the 2017 accounts.
Exactly the point made by Carrickblue. No one is suggesting that this chap is in any way unprofessional or accusing him of being potentially underhand in his auditing process, just that for the removal of any doubt it would surely be better if a completely independent person was to carry out the process.
But they are completely independent.
I’m still enjoying reading the Derby forum on a daily basis and this has to be one of my favourite posts - well, two posts actually. Both from the same author.
When a majority of the posters who responded let them know that this was a stupid idea, they added the following:
F.A.O. Carrick Blue Sorry for this, there is both a JAMES and an Andrew DELVE referred to on the Smith Cooper website.
Incidentally Wycombe's auditor is Gary Heywood of Haines Watts who is a Man Utd fan.
>
Wow - echoes of Luton being the best side in L2 aside from those pesky points.
I would make the opposite argument anyway - we could have been on the beach for weeks, and Rotherham had something to play for till the last moment. To say we had better motivation for playing harder is a bit rich.
@NiceCarrots wasn't having a go. Was genuinely confused by the two names being quoted as the auditor. @Chris cleared it up by saying different people on different years.