@NiceCarrots said:
F.A.O. Morris Ital - have you listened to the Price of Football podcasts on Derby's sorry saga?
Kieran Macguire was the guy who busted EFL on Derby in the first place.
We might feature on the next one as the news broke after the last podcast was recorded.
It's good that we have a board that pro-corporate governance, quite refreshing.
Yes, As an interested layman I wanted to know how we got here and what the possible outcomes for our club could be. As far as I can see the EFL want to appeal just on the 100k fine for Derbys player amortisation loophole whereas the panel has asked Derby to show their hand so to speak.
I wonder If their resubmitted accounts are compliant as they claim surely they must want to end the saga now with a paltry £100k fine and two fingers up to the EFL and ourselves.
If they delay submitting until the season starts and the accounts show a points deduction was justified this season gone do we have a case on their wilful delaying action that would make our replacing them impossible .
Good Call, If Derby are above board, their resubmitted accounts will all already arrived at EFL HQ.
I thought the two issues were separate? The £100k penalty for breaching the rules (or bending them if you’re a Derby fan) is what the EFL are appealing. Any FFP failure would result in further sanctions?
I know the DC set the date for their accounts to be resubmitted but surely that doesn’t impact us in any way, regardless of whether their accounts fall foul of FFP or not.
@Gary said:
I thought the two issues were separate? The £100k penalty for breaching the rules (or bending them if you’re a Derby fan) is what the EFL are appealing. Any FFP failure would result in further sanctions?
I know the DC set the date for their accounts to be resubmitted but surely that doesn’t impact us in any way, regardless of whether their accounts fall foul of FFP or not.
Yep those are 2 separate issues.
What seems slightly unclear, is whether the EFL have actually appealed the initial decision, if not, when will they.
And then how will the review of the original decision take place, as presumably that needs some accounts to be reviewed.
@Gary said:
I thought the two issues were separate? The £100k penalty for breaching the rules (or bending them if you’re a Derby fan) is what the EFL are appealing. Any FFP failure would result in further sanctions?
I know the DC set the date for their accounts to be resubmitted but surely that doesn’t impact us in any way, regardless of whether their accounts fall foul of FFP or not.
As I mentioned I’m a layman and anyone can correct me but I think the answer is yes and no.
The reason why Derby changed the way they calculated amortisation was as a loophole to circumvent FFP as was the sale of Pride Park to a company owned by the chairman.
The EFL are/could be appealing on the amortisation ruling.
The EFL wanted to impose a six point deduction.
It would be interesting to know what Messrs. Luby and Collis think of it all.
Derby are on the 10th manager since Mr. Morris took over when he bought out GSE (the consortium that included the above) in 2015 which might in part explain their finances or lack of.
On a positive note, it looks as if Swindle Town are having a spot of local difficulty.
The possible EFL appeal and any issues with the restated accounts are separate issues.
The former is against what many feel (including the EFL?) is a paltry slap on the wrists punishment for their amortisation fiddle with the EFL likely to request a points deduction and DCFC seeking to perhaps reduce the fine.
The accounts when resubmitted will be tested against the FFP rules and any breaches will lead to a new disciplinary action and potential punishment, having said that Keiran Maguire tweeted the other day that he thought they would probably scrape through this but had queations about the buy back/write off of £12m worth of shares and how this would treated for FFP; so I think it is very much watch this space.
I also note from various regional local papers that Rooney is saying he will resign if they are relegated which would be a very amusing development indeed.
@Erroll_Sims said:
The possible EFL appeal and any issues with the restated accounts are separate issues.
The former is against what many feel (including the EFL?) is a paltry slap on the wrists punishment for their amortisation fiddle with the EFL likely to request a points deduction and DCFC seeking to perhaps reduce the fine.
The accounts when resubmitted will be tested against the FFP rules and any breaches will lead to a new disciplinary action and potential punishment, having said that Keiran Maguire tweeted the other day that he thought they would probably scrape through this but had queations about the buy back/write off of £12m worth of shares and how this would treated for FFP; so I think it is very much watch this space.
I also note from various regional local papers that Rooney is saying he will resign if they are relegated which would be a very amusing development indeed.
If he can't be arsed with the goings-on then fair enough but considering resigning (as reported) because you don't want to manage in L1 is hilarious when you finish only one point above relegation despite creative accounting.
2018/19 Birmingham City Champ
9 points deducted for a breach of financial rules.
2020/21 Sheffield Wednesday Champ
6 points deducted for breach of financial fair play rules
2020/21 Derby County Champ
£100k fine for financial irregularities
Nah. Can’t see why the EFL might think the fine might be lenient ?
And of course various clubs have had 12pts deducted for going into administration - which is a predefined sanction covered by a different rule to being sanctioned for financial irregularities.
Except so far there is no proven case that Derby have broken any FFP rule - that can't be determined until they re-file their accounts. I believe @ReturnToSenda has confirmed the deadline for that is mid August - and if you're Derby you'll clearly want to delay re-filing them until after any appeal of the current DC ruling and maybe after the new season has started.
The £100k fine and reprimand were for not producing accounts in accordance with standard accounting practice FRS102. So far as I know there is no precident set as punishment for this offence. The examples quoted for Birmingham & Sheffield Wed are not relevant in this context.
@ReturnToSenda said: @Twizz That's what Derby put in their statement, but Rob was asked about this and said that was the only place he'd seen that deadline.
They’re also under a transfer embargo for fees whilst the charges are dealt with and who are they going to be able to sign in a free if there’s a possible relegation this season or points deduction next or administration
@Twizz - agreed, but it should be noted the EFL brought the charge against Derby against the Profitabiliy and Loss section of the FPP (see para 10 of the League Arbitration Panel ruling which runs to 59 pages). Para 30 of the same states
EFL showed us on this appeal statistics comparing the effect of the Club’s amortisation treatment with that of other Championship clubs. The effect has been that by the treatment adopted, the Club significantly reduced its costs in the years in question compared to other Championship clubs, which had the effect that, because of the FFP restrictions, they were potentially able to increase their spend on player purchases in those years compared to what would have occurred had they adopted the straight-line treatment which other clubs adopt, yet, in the event, that has led to a significant subsequent year impairment when the expected values have in the event turned out to be overstated.
So although the accounts do not yet show the FPP has been broken, there is a strong case that the amortisation change was to deceive to be within FPP.
Several posters on the Derby fans forum seem to think that the dual fixture list was a face saving gesture from the EFL and they will decide not to appeal also that DCFC have a revised set of accounts ready to be submitted.
We might well find out next week where this is going
@MorrisItal_ said:
Several posters on the Derby fans forum seem to think that the dual fixture list was a face saving gesture from the EFL and they will decide not to appeal also that DCFC have a revised set of accounts ready to be submitted.
We might well find out next week where this is going
Yeah, some sort of act of pacifying us!
Imagine the nonsense of the whole affair if the EFL don't appeal after this.
@carrickblue, I'm inclined to agree that they "cheated" by "cooking the books", however as the quoted section states it's only been determined that they were potentially able to increase their spend - we need the re-filed accounts to know for sure ?.
I'd like to believe that the delay in the EFL appealing the decision is a result of the legal team ensuring they word it correctly.
Personally I think it's no better than 50:50 that a points deduction will be ultimately imposed on this charge.
Meanwhile, we are effectively in limbo because we have no certainty which league we will be playing in despite the season ending 7 weeks ago, fixture lists having already been published and the season due to start in 6 weeks.
RC has said publicly he'd respect the process - what else can he say? - privately I'd expect him to be spiting feathers.
It's a fecking ridiculous situation and shows just how poor the EFL are over the management of the game.
Thanks @NiceCarrots. Here comes the rhetorical question how can a audit of Derby County be independent when the signing auditor is a declared fervent Derby county supporter.
In my spare time, I enjoy watching and playing sport, including golf, racquetball and football, and am a passionate Derby County supporter. I also take an active involvement in charity work, taking part in a number of events and fundraisers and running the London Marathon to raise money for my chosen charity.
I suspect that there are many clubs that appoint a local auditor where some senior members of that company are avid supporters of their client. Didnt the Trust use Haines Watts of Wycombe as their auditor?
In my spare time, I enjoy watching and playing sport, including golf, racquetball and football, and am a passionate Derby County supporter. I also take an active involvement in charity work, taking part in a number of events and fundraisers and running the London Marathon to raise money for my chosen charity.
Whilst I agree this stinks from the outside Mr Delve will have a lot to lose if he supports dodgy accounts.
In my spare time, I enjoy watching and playing sport, including golf, racquetball and football, and am a passionate Derby County supporter. I also take an active involvement in charity work, taking part in a number of events and fundraisers and running the London Marathon to raise money for my chosen charity.
Whilst I agree this stinks from the outside Mr Delve will have a lot to lose if he supports dodgy accounts.
It messes with his objectivity, you wouldn’t have an exam invigilator in charge of their own kids GCSE maths exam.
There is a legal precedent for a retrospective points deduction as recently as last year:
11 August 202011 August 2020. Source: BBC
Macclesfield were in the Football League from 1997 to 2012 and regained their status in 2018
Macclesfield Town have been relegated to the National League after the English Football League won an appeal against a points deduction.
The decision means a reprieve for Stevenage, who will retain their League Two status.
Macclesfield had been given a suspended four-point sanction, but that will be applied immediately, dropping the Silkmen to the foot of the table.
The EFL said an independent panel's decision was "final and binding".
Macclesfield appeared to have escaped relegation in June, after coronavirus ended the League Two season early, when they were docked two points, with four suspended, for breaches of regulations relating to non-payment of wages.
It left them one point above Stevenage in the table, but the appeal decision means they finish three points below their rivals, having been deducted 17 points in total over the course of the 2019-20 season, across three disciplinary cases.
Comments
Unless they delay the opening games, which would cause even sillier knock on problems.
Good Call, If Derby are above board, their resubmitted accounts will all already arrived at EFL HQ.
I thought the two issues were separate? The £100k penalty for breaching the rules (or bending them if you’re a Derby fan) is what the EFL are appealing. Any FFP failure would result in further sanctions?
I know the DC set the date for their accounts to be resubmitted but surely that doesn’t impact us in any way, regardless of whether their accounts fall foul of FFP or not.
Yep those are 2 separate issues.
What seems slightly unclear, is whether the EFL have actually appealed the initial decision, if not, when will they.
And then how will the review of the original decision take place, as presumably that needs some accounts to be reviewed.
@Malone Rob said the other night that he expected them to appeal within a week or so
As I mentioned I’m a layman and anyone can correct me but I think the answer is yes and no.
The reason why Derby changed the way they calculated amortisation was as a loophole to circumvent FFP as was the sale of Pride Park to a company owned by the chairman.
The EFL are/could be appealing on the amortisation ruling.
The EFL wanted to impose a six point deduction.
It would be interesting to know what Messrs. Luby and Collis think of it all.
Derby are on the 10th manager since Mr. Morris took over when he bought out GSE (the consortium that included the above) in 2015 which might in part explain their finances or lack of.
On a positive note, it looks as if Swindle Town are having a spot of local difficulty.
Another basket case.
The possible EFL appeal and any issues with the restated accounts are separate issues.
The former is against what many feel (including the EFL?) is a paltry slap on the wrists punishment for their amortisation fiddle with the EFL likely to request a points deduction and DCFC seeking to perhaps reduce the fine.
The accounts when resubmitted will be tested against the FFP rules and any breaches will lead to a new disciplinary action and potential punishment, having said that Keiran Maguire tweeted the other day that he thought they would probably scrape through this but had queations about the buy back/write off of £12m worth of shares and how this would treated for FFP; so I think it is very much watch this space.
I also note from various regional local papers that Rooney is saying he will resign if they are relegated which would be a very amusing development indeed.
If he can't be arsed with the goings-on then fair enough but considering resigning (as reported) because you don't want to manage in L1 is hilarious when you finish only one point above relegation despite creative accounting.
2018/19 Birmingham City Champ
9 points deducted for a breach of financial rules.
2020/21 Sheffield Wednesday Champ
6 points deducted for breach of financial fair play rules
2020/21 Derby County Champ
£100k fine for financial irregularities
Nah. Can’t see why the EFL might think the fine might be lenient ?
And of course various clubs have had 12pts deducted for going into administration - which is a predefined sanction covered by a different rule to being sanctioned for financial irregularities.
Except so far there is no proven case that Derby have broken any FFP rule - that can't be determined until they re-file their accounts. I believe @ReturnToSenda has confirmed the deadline for that is mid August - and if you're Derby you'll clearly want to delay re-filing them until after any appeal of the current DC ruling and maybe after the new season has started.
The £100k fine and reprimand were for not producing accounts in accordance with standard accounting practice FRS102. So far as I know there is no precident set as punishment for this offence. The examples quoted for Birmingham & Sheffield Wed are not relevant in this context.
@Twizz That's what Derby put in their statement, but Rob was asked about this and said that was the only place he'd seen that deadline.
They’re also under a transfer embargo for fees whilst the charges are dealt with and who are they going to be able to sign in a free if there’s a possible relegation this season or points deduction next or administration
@Twizz - agreed, but it should be noted the EFL brought the charge against Derby against the Profitabiliy and Loss section of the FPP (see para 10 of the League Arbitration Panel ruling which runs to 59 pages). Para 30 of the same states
So although the accounts do not yet show the FPP has been broken, there is a strong case that the amortisation change was to deceive to be within FPP.
Several posters on the Derby fans forum seem to think that the dual fixture list was a face saving gesture from the EFL and they will decide not to appeal also that DCFC have a revised set of accounts ready to be submitted.
We might well find out next week where this is going
Yeah, some sort of act of pacifying us!
Imagine the nonsense of the whole affair if the EFL don't appeal after this.
@carrickblue, I'm inclined to agree that they "cheated" by "cooking the books", however as the quoted section states it's only been determined that they were potentially able to increase their spend - we need the re-filed accounts to know for sure ?.
I'd like to believe that the delay in the EFL appealing the decision is a result of the legal team ensuring they word it correctly.
Personally I think it's no better than 50:50 that a points deduction will be ultimately imposed on this charge.
Meanwhile, we are effectively in limbo because we have no certainty which league we will be playing in despite the season ending 7 weeks ago, fixture lists having already been published and the season due to start in 6 weeks.
RC has said publicly he'd respect the process - what else can he say? - privately I'd expect him to be spiting feathers.
It's a fecking ridiculous situation and shows just how poor the EFL are over the management of the game.
Derby fiasco is feature on the new Price of Football podcast
PriceOfFootball
@KieranMaguire
·
1h
EP. 168
@POF_POD
with
@kevinhunterday
⚽️Derby
⚽️Salary cap
⚽️China
⚽️Agents
⚽️Klopp’s footwear
⚽️Ecuador
⚽️Merging leagues
⚽️Disclosing salaries
⚽️Insurance
⚽️Plymouth
⚽️Sky Bet
? https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-price-of-football/id1482886394?i=1000527057607…
? https://open.spotify.com/episode/1ojPp3EXkSrcRVI9Y04EUN?si=SEZUxR7qRHCD3FXzJxL50w&dl_branch=1
Thanks @NiceCarrots. Here comes the rhetorical question how can a audit of Derby County be independent when the signing auditor is a declared fervent Derby county supporter.
James Delve Partner
In my spare time, I enjoy watching and playing sport, including golf, racquetball and football, and am a passionate Derby County supporter. I also take an active involvement in charity work, taking part in a number of events and fundraisers and running the London Marathon to raise money for my chosen charity.
Well if you can appoint an auditor with such an obvious conflict of interest there’s something going wrong somewhere.
I suspect that there are many clubs that appoint a local auditor where some senior members of that company are avid supporters of their client. Didnt the Trust use Haines Watts of Wycombe as their auditor?
Whilst I agree this stinks from the outside Mr Delve will have a lot to lose if he supports dodgy accounts.
With a surname like Delve, you'd have expected a detailed audit...
It messes with his objectivity, you wouldn’t have an exam invigilator in charge of their own kids GCSE maths exam.
At some point, the senior partners of Smith Cooper will arrive at the conclusion that the reputational damage outweighs the fees.
Not sure how the company that audits Krispy Kreme can do it without a conflict of interest
Delve is a great name for an auditor. Very different to the names I call them
There is a legal precedent for a retrospective points deduction as recently as last year:
11 August 202011 August 2020. Source: BBC
Macclesfield were in the Football League from 1997 to 2012 and regained their status in 2018
Macclesfield Town have been relegated to the National League after the English Football League won an appeal against a points deduction.
The decision means a reprieve for Stevenage, who will retain their League Two status.
Macclesfield had been given a suspended four-point sanction, but that will be applied immediately, dropping the Silkmen to the foot of the table.
The EFL said an independent panel's decision was "final and binding".
Macclesfield appeared to have escaped relegation in June, after coronavirus ended the League Two season early, when they were docked two points, with four suspended, for breaches of regulations relating to non-payment of wages.
It left them one point above Stevenage in the table, but the appeal decision means they finish three points below their rivals, having been deducted 17 points in total over the course of the 2019-20 season, across three disciplinary cases.
I'm not convinced that an auditor being a supporter of a club is sufficient for there to be a conflict of interest.