Really @doob? It got so much coverage because they announced it as a going concern backed by massive bank and said they were going. You can denigrate the response all you want but that was a massive move and an embarrassing collapse.
I think it was some way off being a reality. A European league made up of teams from just 3 countries, really? And instead we'll have a CL where the same 16 or so clubs are guaranteed entry and will play even more games (to be fitted into the domestic season of course). If Chelsea can 'qualify' because of who they are, how is that so different from having a league where certain teams can't be relegated?
If they are 'generally happy' with events of the last 48 hours they must be all be related to the Oystons. For me, this has strengthened UEFA's hand if anything. I hope @DevC prediction league charities aren't for debt-ridden football club owners next term!
This was a different situation to previous attempts, orchestrated by mainly US owners, Glazers and Henry. Significant that a Liverpool director (Dalglish) was unaware. In country people at the clubs presumably kept in the dark, other than Woodward who was always involved. Interesting how soon the government jumped on the band wagon, how do they intend financing the 51% ownership by fans? A Covid dividend?
In celebration of football tradition, here is how the top flight would look if clubs had all kept their original names:
St. Marks (West Gorton)
Newton Heath
Leicester Fosse
Chelsea
Thames Ironworks
Liverpool
Hotspur
St. Domingo
Dial Square
Leeds
Aston Villa
St. Luke’s
Crystal Palace
St. Mary’s
Newcastle
Brighton
Burnley
St. Andrews
West Bromwich Strollers
Sheffield United
This is probably the most obvious point I'll ever make but imagine last night, but there was no relegation because we were guaranteed to be in the Championship wherever we finished.
Last night was very special precisely because we are staring relegation in the face.
In one match it showed why the proposed ESL was so vehemently, and pretty much unanimously opposed.
Preach it @eric_plant if ever there was a game that proved what an abomination football without jeopardy would be...THAT was it. Having said that if Cardiff, Bournemouth and Boro have nothing to play for when we meet them, I will be happy!
I agree with you Eric. Without a consequence to the outcome, professional sport is essentially pointless. Its why I very rarely watch friendlies.
I don't really follow American football but understand many on this forum do. Why does the lack of relegation not matter? It must be obvious very early to many of the teams that they have no chance of winning their minileague or making the playoffs. Doesn't that make it a bit dull? Even more so perhaps with baseball when they play very long season (160 odd games) yet must be obvious to many teams after say 20-30 games that their competitive season is over?
@DevC though I enjoyed my visit to Yankee Stadium to see a game...it seems to be a day out eating and drinking with a bit of sport going on in the background...'matchday experience' as some may have it. The day people are eating, drinking and watching the Oasis tribute band in the Adams Park car-park rather than the game is when we will be in real trouble...
@DevC said:
I agree with you Eric. Without a consequence to the outcome, professional sport is essentially pointless. Its why I very rarely watch friendlies.
I don't really follow American football but understand many on this forum do. Why does the lack of relegation not matter? It must be obvious very early to many of the teams that they have no chance of winning their minileague or making the playoffs. Doesn't that make it a bit dull? Even more so perhaps with baseball when they play very long season (160 odd games) yet must be obvious to many teams after say 20-30 games that their competitive season is over?
As someone who has a passing interest in some US sport rather than any allegiance I think the idea is that if everything is fully regionalised you probably have historical and geographical links to an NFL, NBA and NHL team, you can't expect them all to be good all the time and the shared nature of the commercial side and allocation of players means you might be good in turn in the future. Not sure how accurate that is as success breeds success, there are worldwide stars, dynasties and clubs that stink the place out for decades.
The extra number of games could be dull as anything or give you some rivalries and something to play for even if you're not up the top of leagues, and playoffs extend the whole thing out. Maybe people follow players or the general story more than their teams to some extent too.
In reality though if that's all you know you're not going to be bothered by any of it.
I've been surprised by how quickly some of the new MLS teams put together supposedly fervent ultras or supporters groups, just as Prem teams have millions of supporters worldwide who don't go but watch on TV and abuse people on Twitter.
It's a big challenge for fans groups and owners to some extent as they want all the money they can get. Many of us will have thought much of the football behind close doors horribly soulless (last night amongst several exclusions) but it would appear some owners might have taken the view that long standing fans aren't even needed for them to turn a temporary coin.
@DevC though I enjoyed my visit to Yankee Stadium to see a game...it seems to be a day out eating and drinking with a bit of sport going on in the background...'matchday experience' as some may have it. The day people are eating, drinking and watching the Oasis tribute band in the Adams Park car-park rather than the game is when we will be in real trouble...
@DevC said:
I agree with you Eric. Without a consequence to the outcome, professional sport is essentially pointless. Its why I very rarely watch friendlies.
I don't really follow American football but understand many on this forum do. Why does the lack of relegation not matter? It must be obvious very early to many of the teams that they have no chance of winning their minileague or making the playoffs. Doesn't that make it a bit dull? Even more so perhaps with baseball when they play very long season (160 odd games) yet must be obvious to many teams after say 20-30 games that their competitive season is over?
It’s probably worth mentioning that for the majority of our existence we actually did compete in leagues where there was no possibility of promotion or relegation!
But I think the way to look at things like the NFL is to see them as cup competitions a bit like the current Champions League (or the Autoglass Trophy). A few round robin matches, some play offs (quarter finals, semi finals) and a final.
To be fair to the American side of things, it all happened fairly organically. With the huge cities and vast travel distances, a team from Duluth MN or Shreveport, LA was always unlikely to field a team for a national league. Green Bay is a quite marvellous anomaly. Even if relegation had been subsequently introduced, the travel cost and other heightened expenses would likely have limited any kind of pyramid. American sports also tend to be equipment heavy, with large matchday squads. I am sure it could still have somehow happened (Russia has some kind of league system, after all) but at least there are some mitigating factors.
Give me the English football pyramid any day of the week, though!
Comments
Really @doob? It got so much coverage because they announced it as a going concern backed by massive bank and said they were going. You can denigrate the response all you want but that was a massive move and an embarrassing collapse.
I think it was some way off being a reality. A European league made up of teams from just 3 countries, really? And instead we'll have a CL where the same 16 or so clubs are guaranteed entry and will play even more games (to be fitted into the domestic season of course). If Chelsea can 'qualify' because of who they are, how is that so different from having a league where certain teams can't be relegated?
If they are 'generally happy' with events of the last 48 hours they must be all be related to the Oystons. For me, this has strengthened UEFA's hand if anything. I hope @DevC prediction league charities aren't for debt-ridden football club owners next term!
This was a different situation to previous attempts, orchestrated by mainly US owners, Glazers and Henry. Significant that a Liverpool director (Dalglish) was unaware. In country people at the clubs presumably kept in the dark, other than Woodward who was always involved. Interesting how soon the government jumped on the band wagon, how do they intend financing the 51% ownership by fans? A Covid dividend?
In celebration of football tradition, here is how the top flight would look if clubs had all kept their original names:
St. Marks (West Gorton)
Newton Heath
Leicester Fosse
Chelsea
Thames Ironworks
Liverpool
Hotspur
St. Domingo
Dial Square
Leeds
Aston Villa
St. Luke’s
Crystal Palace
St. Mary’s
Newcastle
Brighton
Burnley
St. Andrews
West Bromwich Strollers
Sheffield United
Careful @Shev - mentioning football history could get you banned from the ground.
North Town Wanderers, would be an iconic name in any era !!
This is probably the most obvious point I'll ever make but imagine last night, but there was no relegation because we were guaranteed to be in the Championship wherever we finished.
Last night was very special precisely because we are staring relegation in the face.
In one match it showed why the proposed ESL was so vehemently, and pretty much unanimously opposed.
Preach it @eric_plant if ever there was a game that proved what an abomination football without jeopardy would be...THAT was it. Having said that if Cardiff, Bournemouth and Boro have nothing to play for when we meet them, I will be happy!
I agree with you Eric. Without a consequence to the outcome, professional sport is essentially pointless. Its why I very rarely watch friendlies.
I don't really follow American football but understand many on this forum do. Why does the lack of relegation not matter? It must be obvious very early to many of the teams that they have no chance of winning their minileague or making the playoffs. Doesn't that make it a bit dull? Even more so perhaps with baseball when they play very long season (160 odd games) yet must be obvious to many teams after say 20-30 games that their competitive season is over?
@DevC though I enjoyed my visit to Yankee Stadium to see a game...it seems to be a day out eating and drinking with a bit of sport going on in the background...'matchday experience' as some may have it. The day people are eating, drinking and watching the Oasis tribute band in the Adams Park car-park rather than the game is when we will be in real trouble...
As someone who has a passing interest in some US sport rather than any allegiance I think the idea is that if everything is fully regionalised you probably have historical and geographical links to an NFL, NBA and NHL team, you can't expect them all to be good all the time and the shared nature of the commercial side and allocation of players means you might be good in turn in the future. Not sure how accurate that is as success breeds success, there are worldwide stars, dynasties and clubs that stink the place out for decades.
The extra number of games could be dull as anything or give you some rivalries and something to play for even if you're not up the top of leagues, and playoffs extend the whole thing out. Maybe people follow players or the general story more than their teams to some extent too.
In reality though if that's all you know you're not going to be bothered by any of it.
I've been surprised by how quickly some of the new MLS teams put together supposedly fervent ultras or supporters groups, just as Prem teams have millions of supporters worldwide who don't go but watch on TV and abuse people on Twitter.
It's a big challenge for fans groups and owners to some extent as they want all the money they can get. Many of us will have thought much of the football behind close doors horribly soulless (last night amongst several exclusions) but it would appear some owners might have taken the view that long standing fans aren't even needed for them to turn a temporary coin.
Hopefully th> @Wendoverman said:
I thought Oasis were a tribute band
It’s probably worth mentioning that for the majority of our existence we actually did compete in leagues where there was no possibility of promotion or relegation!
But I think the way to look at things like the NFL is to see them as cup competitions a bit like the current Champions League (or the Autoglass Trophy). A few round robin matches, some play offs (quarter finals, semi finals) and a final.
To be fair to the American side of things, it all happened fairly organically. With the huge cities and vast travel distances, a team from Duluth MN or Shreveport, LA was always unlikely to field a team for a national league. Green Bay is a quite marvellous anomaly. Even if relegation had been subsequently introduced, the travel cost and other heightened expenses would likely have limited any kind of pyramid. American sports also tend to be equipment heavy, with large matchday squads. I am sure it could still have somehow happened (Russia has some kind of league system, after all) but at least there are some mitigating factors.
Give me the English football pyramid any day of the week, though!
Interesting info as part of a decent thread. Give these cretins all of the money in the world and they'll need that times 3 in 5 years.
The county championship in cricket only introduced promotion and relegation at the advent of the new century.