Premier League L9 will mean that the clubs are most likely to be expelled from the PL unless a compromise can be worked out. I'm not sure the owners of the 6 care too much about that, and I fully believe there is a Plan B in place if all ESL teams were expelled from their National Leagues.
However..... I suspect a least one of the 6 are reconsidering their position and the interview with the Real Madrid president (just what was that idiot on) has pushed them closer to reversing their decision.
The contract issue is an interesting one. I would love to see a player or two trying to get out of their club as the club would have breached the contract - especially those that have performance bonuses built in that are for competitions their club would no longer be playing in.
This is going to run and run and someone is going to have to do something to break the deadlock one way or another.
Either a compromise is going to have to start to be negotiated (though I believe this is only going to kick the problem down the road by a few years) or the PL are going to have to serve notice of expelling the teams.
Unconfirmed reports that Chelsea, and possibly City ready to pull out already. Have to remember neither of these clubs need or really want the money, the owners have untold wealth already and want the glory and the PR and the cloak of success and legitimacy it brings as perverse as it may be that this is what brings it down.
Also contraversial but If you want decent stadiums and clubs continuing you at some level need to allow people with £ to invest it a la the Couhigs.
I've been banging this drum for a while but massive keys for me for governance are:
Nothing pre-determined or forever - If you have more money that is already a privilege, we don't cosy up to you or allow you any credit or free passes based on this.
Real money only - If you want to "invest" you need to pay what you promise, possibly with it ringfenced or paid in advance to cover future years.
@floyd said:
Really surprised by this. Surely the clubs in question were prepared for the backlash?
Yes I'm sure they were. Just don't expect they thought it was going to be as universal and widespread as it has been.
As my post above said I also reckon at least one of the owners would have been shouting at their TV listening to the Real Madrid's president interview. That set the whole thing back even further - football is dying, we are saving football - the man is a total fruitloop
@floyd said:
Really surprised by this. Surely the clubs in question were prepared for the backlash?
My guess is that the theory was the clamour to be involved at the new top of the pyramid (and the riches it would bring) would buy off fans but not including most countries and ringfencing the likes of spurs just doesn't sound like a proper contest. The comments about legacy fans won't have helped. At some level we all know we are being mugged off spending silly money on everything but the clubs aren't usually stupid enough to admit it.
Not all clubs may have been equally keen. Clearly Chelsea and Man City cannot afford to be the wrong Side of a closed shop but may not have particularly fancied the closed shop either.
Or they may have been offered something
Or this may have been the plan all along and the price will be further reform to the champions league.
This is the dumbest play ever if CL reform was the plan all along. They were already receiving constant concessions by stealth, with hardly any protests. With this 'dastardly plan' they have instead accomplished the following:
Alienated their fans.
Damaged their brands.
Publicized and alerted the whole footballing world of their endgame.
Given leverage to UEFA in future negotiations.
Looked like utter cowards.
Hurt the morale of their actual teams.
Annoyed JP Morgan Chase, not a great idea for capitalists of their ilk.
This has all been slightly bizarre. It’s really hard to see this as anything other than ignorance and greed with a total lack of understanding of European football culture and seems to have been totally mishandled.
It’s given an impetus to introducing some governance (although I doubt anything will happen) and they’ve made themselves look selfish, cowardly and incompetent for no apparent benefit.
@DevC said:
You are very much a (small c) conservative Eric. You don't like change of any kind. You would prefer to have four divisions of a football league all playing at 3pm on a Saturday and a European cup just for the champions of those leagues. Who knows maybe that is the ideal world. But in today's world it is unrealistic.
I'm not sure quire how far we should compromise here, if at all. But I do see that conflict equally isn't going to benefit anyone either and if we don't compromise, it only makes conflict more likely. We can posture like the Government is, easy popularity and votes at no cost to them, or we can face reality and try to find something that isn't ideal but is better than the alternative.
If the big clubs will genuinely not accept anything that is not a de facto closed shop, then I think conflict may be inevitable. If however we can avoid that by meeting them halfway maybe that is a better solution than conflict.
I do see problems in the current situation that Bayern will win the German league virtually every year and so will PSG in France and Juventus in Italy. I can see that a PSG-Juventus league match on a standard Saturday might be more interesting to many and yes make more money than a Juventus-Crotone league game or for that matter a Man Utd-Barcelona league game on a weekday than a Champions league group game between Man U (partial) reserves and Krasnodar.
I can see why the big clubs want change. I don't at the moment see what change we can give them.
Problem here is, compromise today, then in 2 years, then in another 2 years & they end up with what they initially wanted. Namely cake & eat it.
We are lucky and rare in this country in that we have a reasonably competitive top division. Sport needs uncertainty. If the winner is virtually certain from the start, what’s the point?
Look at other big Euro leagues and you get a very different picture.
In Spain 15 of the last 16 titles have been one by one of two teams
In Portugal each of the last 18 titles have been one of two teams
In France seven of the last eight years have gone to one team
In Germany same team has won it for eight years
In Italy same team for nine years
Hardly a big league but in Scotland it’s 35 years since a non Glasgow team won
Perhaps this is a time to look at this and see what can be done. The status quo doesn’t look sustainable to me.
@DevC - I agree. Competitive football at the highest level has been dying on the vine for competitiveness, not to mention the more important issue of how the trickle down effect of the prevalent greed hurts smaller clubs. This might be a blessing in disguise if it actually causes serious reform. By highlighting their endgame, the rich elite may actually receive more pushback against their other stealth concessions. However, I massively doubt it. Though the ESL was an ode to the folly of greed, the 'virtuous' PL, UEFA and FIFA are all as bad in their own way. It's all posturing.
@DevC said:
We are lucky and rare in this country in that we have a reasonably competitive top division. Sport needs uncertainty. If the winner is virtually certain from the start, what’s the point?
Look at other big Euro leagues and you get a very different picture.
In Spain 15 of the last 16 titles have been one by one of two teams
In Portugal each of the last 18 titles have been one of two teams
In France seven of the last eight years have gone to one team
In Germany same team has won it for eight years
In Italy same team for nine years
Hardly a big league but in Scotland it’s 35 years since a non Glasgow team won
Perhaps this is a time to look at this and see what can be done. The status quo doesn’t look sustainable to me.
I've never heard the Portuguese league described as one of Europe's big leagues before (and France is dubious).
But yeah you make an obvious point. This isn't new it has always been thus.
What an embarrassing sh1t show this past 72 hours has been for these six clubs.
The various roll backs coming out and still to come out are toe curlingly bad and I’m guessing the heads will continue to roll at various clubs.
But this is certainly not the end. A project is bank-rolled, the desire is there, some of these clubs would have seen this money as essential to their plans and even existence.
Whilst I’m happy to be part of a club that seems to have a mantra of good governance and sensible spending many, many clubs up and down the pyramid don’t and until this changes along with PROPER ownership checks.
All over now. Those six clubs may never gain the trust of their supporters again.
It all just makes you realise how lucky we have been to have the Couhigs as our owners. A family who have fully immersed themselves in the history of our club and are true supporters. We are very fortunate indeed.
@eric_plant said:
I'm interested to hear the Couhigs' views on the proposed ESL as it goes
Yes. I would hope not but I assume as American businessmen they see the logic. I agree that the handling of this has been shockingly incompetent from these supposed billionaire high flyers. Fans of all of those clubs know what the plan is now.
The idea for a European breakaway league gets floated every few years and it's hard to know why it got so much coverage this time round. It's generally an exercise in muscle flexing by the big clubs. I'm sure they'll be generally quite happy with the changes that have gone through to the Champions League, almost unnoticed. Perhaps the Chelsea fans that were out last night will continue their protest that under the new set up Chelsea would, apparently, be in line to play in next season's CL regardless of where they finish in the PL. Bit like having a Super League where certain clubs are guaranteed participation year after year.
Comments
Premier League L9 will mean that the clubs are most likely to be expelled from the PL unless a compromise can be worked out. I'm not sure the owners of the 6 care too much about that, and I fully believe there is a Plan B in place if all ESL teams were expelled from their National Leagues.
However..... I suspect a least one of the 6 are reconsidering their position and the interview with the Real Madrid president (just what was that idiot on) has pushed them closer to reversing their decision.
The contract issue is an interesting one. I would love to see a player or two trying to get out of their club as the club would have breached the contract - especially those that have performance bonuses built in that are for competitions their club would no longer be playing in.
This is going to run and run and someone is going to have to do something to break the deadlock one way or another.
Either a compromise is going to have to start to be negotiated (though I believe this is only going to kick the problem down the road by a few years) or the PL are going to have to serve notice of expelling the teams.
Someone beat me to it
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000–01_FA_Cup
I can't see the others holding out now Chelsea are leaving.
Unconfirmed reports that Chelsea, and possibly City ready to pull out already. Have to remember neither of these clubs need or really want the money, the owners have untold wealth already and want the glory and the PR and the cloak of success and legitimacy it brings as perverse as it may be that this is what brings it down.
Also contraversial but If you want decent stadiums and clubs continuing you at some level need to allow people with £ to invest it a la the Couhigs.
I've been banging this drum for a while but massive keys for me for governance are:
Nothing pre-determined or forever - If you have more money that is already a privilege, we don't cosy up to you or allow you any credit or free passes based on this.
Real money only - If you want to "invest" you need to pay what you promise, possibly with it ringfenced or paid in advance to cover future years.
Really surprised by this. Surely the clubs in question were prepared for the backlash?
Yes I'm sure they were. Just don't expect they thought it was going to be as universal and widespread as it has been.
As my post above said I also reckon at least one of the owners would have been shouting at their TV listening to the Real Madrid's president interview. That set the whole thing back even further - football is dying, we are saving football - the man is a total fruitloop
Wow! Chelsea folded faster than a cheap suit
My guess is that the theory was the clamour to be involved at the new top of the pyramid (and the riches it would bring) would buy off fans but not including most countries and ringfencing the likes of spurs just doesn't sound like a proper contest. The comments about legacy fans won't have helped. At some level we all know we are being mugged off spending silly money on everything but the clubs aren't usually stupid enough to admit it.
ESL 0-1 Football (Chelsea own goal, 2nd minute)
Unfortunately, football is still buggered. This is like running from an erupting volcano and being glad you did not get hit by a falling meteorite.
I suspect UEFA have offered them something
2 down
Sky now saying City out.
I hope they expel them anyway, just for fun.
Don't really get why last night's game wasn't postponed
Send them all to the bottom of the pyramid it’ll give them a real appreciation for the game’s grassroots
Not all clubs may have been equally keen. Clearly Chelsea and Man City cannot afford to be the wrong Side of a closed shop but may not have particularly fancied the closed shop either.
Or they may have been offered something
Or this may have been the plan all along and the price will be further reform to the champions league.
Things are not always as they seem.
Peterborough play in blue, will they be considered as a replacement for Chelsea?
This is the dumbest play ever if CL reform was the plan all along. They were already receiving constant concessions by stealth, with hardly any protests. With this 'dastardly plan' they have instead accomplished the following:
Not exactly Machiavellian!
Stamford Bridge is owned by Chelsea Pitch Owners, rather than Chelsea Football Club. I’d expect that’s got something to do with it.
This has all been slightly bizarre. It’s really hard to see this as anything other than ignorance and greed with a total lack of understanding of European football culture and seems to have been totally mishandled.
It’s given an impetus to introducing some governance (although I doubt anything will happen) and they’ve made themselves look selfish, cowardly and incompetent for no apparent benefit.
Weird. But lots of fun
Problem here is, compromise today, then in 2 years, then in another 2 years & they end up with what they initially wanted. Namely cake & eat it.
We are lucky and rare in this country in that we have a reasonably competitive top division. Sport needs uncertainty. If the winner is virtually certain from the start, what’s the point?
Look at other big Euro leagues and you get a very different picture.
In Spain 15 of the last 16 titles have been one by one of two teams
In Portugal each of the last 18 titles have been one of two teams
In France seven of the last eight years have gone to one team
In Germany same team has won it for eight years
In Italy same team for nine years
Hardly a big league but in Scotland it’s 35 years since a non Glasgow team won
Perhaps this is a time to look at this and see what can be done. The status quo doesn’t look sustainable to me.
@DevC - I agree. Competitive football at the highest level has been dying on the vine for competitiveness, not to mention the more important issue of how the trickle down effect of the prevalent greed hurts smaller clubs. This might be a blessing in disguise if it actually causes serious reform. By highlighting their endgame, the rich elite may actually receive more pushback against their other stealth concessions. However, I massively doubt it. Though the ESL was an ode to the folly of greed, the 'virtuous' PL, UEFA and FIFA are all as bad in their own way. It's all posturing.
I've never heard the Portuguese league described as one of Europe's big leagues before (and France is dubious).
But yeah you make an obvious point. This isn't new it has always been thus.
What an embarrassing sh1t show this past 72 hours has been for these six clubs.
The various roll backs coming out and still to come out are toe curlingly bad and I’m guessing the heads will continue to roll at various clubs.
But this is certainly not the end. A project is bank-rolled, the desire is there, some of these clubs would have seen this money as essential to their plans and even existence.
Whilst I’m happy to be part of a club that seems to have a mantra of good governance and sensible spending many, many clubs up and down the pyramid don’t and until this changes along with PROPER ownership checks.
All over now. Those six clubs may never gain the trust of their supporters again.
It all just makes you realise how lucky we have been to have the Couhigs as our owners. A family who have fully immersed themselves in the history of our club and are true supporters. We are very fortunate indeed.
I'm interested to hear the Couhigs' views on the proposed ESL as it goes
Yes. I would hope not but I assume as American businessmen they see the logic. I agree that the handling of this has been shockingly incompetent from these supposed billionaire high flyers. Fans of all of those clubs know what the plan is now.
The idea for a European breakaway league gets floated every few years and it's hard to know why it got so much coverage this time round. It's generally an exercise in muscle flexing by the big clubs. I'm sure they'll be generally quite happy with the changes that have gone through to the Champions League, almost unnoticed. Perhaps the Chelsea fans that were out last night will continue their protest that under the new set up Chelsea would, apparently, be in line to play in next season's CL regardless of where they finish in the PL. Bit like having a Super League where certain clubs are guaranteed participation year after year.