The clubs concerned seem confident they will successfully fight any expulsion in court and it’s just hot air from FIFA, the PL and the others oh and now government ministers have started to wade in, it’s going to be messy or is that Messi
@Shev said:
They have not stated the other three permanent members yet. We are not out of the woods!
You could be right here. Hard to believe the super league would miss out on the chance to invite a worldwide phenomenon with the best stadium in the UK.
I assume Peterborough’s involvement is being kept quiet in case it’s needed as the clincher. All resistance would crumble at the announcement of The Fenland Galacticos.
If it is just a ploy to get changes in the CL, even if this is settled it is a massive PR disaster...which makes you think that the owners are serious and our game at the top level is just fatally flawed. Fans are going to have no effect nor a government pretending to believe community is more important than big big business. Real football fans should just pick a smaller local team to support in my opinion. If Rob C is not on the phone lobbying to fill one of the extra ESL places or potentially one of the soon to be vacant slots in the Premier League, I will be very disappointed.
I agree with @bookertease there is no way the premier league (or it's members) will agree to completely devalue their product by expelling the 'rebel' clubs, in the same way the EFL backed down back in 91/92.
I'm not convinced the super League will ever happen, mind, but it will be compromise and concessions that will prevent it, not empty threats and hypothetical outrage from the likes of Everton FC.
Do you not think six teams (some of whom are presenting seriously under-performing) pissing on the others from a great height and creating a closed shop league is a totally different proposition from restructuring the top division in the pyramid @Doob ?
The ESL is a completely different animal to the launch of the Premier League. The latter has amounted to little more than a richer rebrand with, lets not forget, significant financial benefit to the rest of the pyramid. I don't see a path for Barnsley or Sheffield United to ever compete in the Super League.
I wouldn't take the opposition of other PL clubs too seriously though, they're just mad not to be invited to the feast.
For me the key issue is the closed shop nature. If that goes I am far more open to a discussion.
Would a scenario where say there was a 16 team ESL. Teams in the ESL don't play in the national leagues. They just play that. They can have a cup to if they want.
Three teams get relegated at end of season.
Champions of national leagues go into a ESL qualification tournament (played midweek) following season. Three teams that qualify from that go into ESL (so effectively it takes two seasons to get promoted into ESL - year one win national league, year two win ESL qualification league.
Loads of fine tuning and initial interim measures but does that rough principle work ok?
I cant say I am sure.
(Incidentally not sure the weakest eight of those ESL teams are going to be too happy - they may not fancy seasons fighting a relegation battle)
@DevC the whole point of the ESL is for franchise owners to have set income and profits not to have the risk of relegation. You can make up a whole new league and cup structure if you want. They don't.
You may well be right @Wendoverman but doesnt mean we have to give them all of what they want. Would the above be an acceptable compromise that we could live with or is it only status quo is good enough?
@Wendoverman said: @DevC the whole point of the ESL is for franchise owners to have set income and profits not to have the risk of relegation. You can make up a whole new league and cup structure if you want. They don't.
That risk could be partly covered by massive parachute payments in the event of relegation.
I think I've come up with a solution. We say, OK, you can piss off and form your franchise league - but - if you want it to be "super" it has to be the six best teams in England, so the top six of the premier league at the end of this season. Imagine Arsenal and Tottenham losing out on it to Leicester and West Ham, it would be beautiful to see.
@drcongo wins the prize. @DevC I don't think there should be a compromise at all. They go and the League is restructured. ESL Players not eligible to play for their nations or to play on loan in PL or lower down the league. All those happy to warm the bench on huge money can go to or stay in the ESL. The ones who want to play football in meaningful competition then have a choice.
@DevC said:
You may well be right @Wendoverman but doesnt mean we have to give them all of what they want. Would the above be an acceptable compromise that we could live with or is it only status quo is good enough?
It all depends on whether you consider a kid in, for example Malaysia, streaming every match as important as a fan in Liverpool who's been going home and away since they were a kid, like their parents and grandparents before them.
If you do, then why wouldn't you go for it? There are millions more of the first example than the second.
But also, yeah, @Wendoverman is spot on. The entire point of this whole charade is to take away the jeopardy of not qualifying for the richest clubs. Without that there's no point them doing it
@mooneyman said:
I think you will find most players at these clubs would quite happily give up playing for their countries and pick up £500k per week @Wendoverman.
I am generally a cynical cove myself @mooneyman but I am not as convinced of that as yourself.
You are very much a (small c) conservative Eric. You don't like change of any kind. You would prefer to have four divisions of a football league all playing at 3pm on a Saturday and a European cup just for the champions of those leagues. Who knows maybe that is the ideal world. But in today's world it is unrealistic.
I'm not sure quire how far we should compromise here, if at all. But I do see that conflict equally isn't going to benefit anyone either and if we don't compromise, it only makes conflict more likely. We can posture like the Government is, easy popularity and votes at no cost to them, or we can face reality and try to find something that isn't ideal but is better than the alternative.
If the big clubs will genuinely not accept anything that is not a de facto closed shop, then I think conflict may be inevitable. If however we can avoid that by meeting them halfway maybe that is a better solution than conflict.
I do see problems in the current situation that Bayern will win the German league virtually every year and so will PSG in France and Juventus in Italy. I can see that a PSG-Juventus league match on a standard Saturday might be more interesting to many and yes make more money than a Juventus-Crotone league game or for that matter a Man Utd-Barcelona league game on a weekday than a Champions league group game between Man U (partial) reserves and Krasnodar.
I can see why the big clubs want change. I don't at the moment see what change we can give them.
As perfect conditions for a @DevC '...greed is good I can see why the wealth creator guys are all feeling a bit hard done by let's see how we can make it work for them' scenario to be followed by 'if you are so clever what would you suggest?'...have been reached. I'm out.
I am no expert in labour laws, but does anyone here know if it is realistic to ban players from tournaments if they play for these clubs? Especially given they are already under contract.
All the compromise in the world isn’t going to help, the greedy bastards may change the wording but their intent is clear football has to unite and fight
I think the players, managers and technical staff would all probably have valid claims against UEFA/FIFA etc if they are working for those clubs under a contract that pre-exists the creation of the ESL - certainly under English law they cannot be punished or held responsible for actions of their employers that they were not party to deciding upon.
The situation changes once those pre-existing contracts expire or one is approached to join one of the greedy clubs after the ESL is set up as the player/staff member knows the consequence of their choice.
Let's be honest the clubs have nailed their colours to the ESL mast and it will happen, what we have now is a huge game of chicken between the football authorities, European Leagues and the greedy 12 - who blinks first and gives concessions is anyones guess
Comments
The clubs concerned seem confident they will successfully fight any expulsion in court and it’s just hot air from FIFA, the PL and the others oh and now government ministers have started to wade in, it’s going to be messy or is that Messi
You could be right here. Hard to believe the super league would miss out on the chance to invite a worldwide phenomenon with the best stadium in the UK.
Peterborough will obviously be one!
I assume Peterborough’s involvement is being kept quiet in case it’s needed as the clincher. All resistance would crumble at the announcement of The Fenland Galacticos.
If it is just a ploy to get changes in the CL, even if this is settled it is a massive PR disaster...which makes you think that the owners are serious and our game at the top level is just fatally flawed. Fans are going to have no effect nor a government pretending to believe community is more important than big big business. Real football fans should just pick a smaller local team to support in my opinion. If Rob C is not on the phone lobbying to fill one of the extra ESL places or potentially one of the soon to be vacant slots in the Premier League, I will be very disappointed.
I think this is so similar to what happened in 1991 when the big clubs wanted to keep all the TV revenue so formed a breakaway league. The EFL threatened them they'd be on their own, if they resigned from the EFL they'd never be allowed back - that didn't last of course. And we had the same 'outrage' in parliament - https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/1991-04-26/debates/848430c3-7f4a-49c0-a704-6622e8598629/FootballPremierLeague
I agree with @bookertease there is no way the premier league (or it's members) will agree to completely devalue their product by expelling the 'rebel' clubs, in the same way the EFL backed down back in 91/92.
I'm not convinced the super League will ever happen, mind, but it will be compromise and concessions that will prevent it, not empty threats and hypothetical outrage from the likes of Everton FC.
Do you not think six teams (some of whom are presenting seriously under-performing) pissing on the others from a great height and creating a closed shop league is a totally different proposition from restructuring the top division in the pyramid @Doob ?
The ESL is a completely different animal to the launch of the Premier League. The latter has amounted to little more than a richer rebrand with, lets not forget, significant financial benefit to the rest of the pyramid. I don't see a path for Barnsley or Sheffield United to ever compete in the Super League.
I wouldn't take the opposition of other PL clubs too seriously though, they're just mad not to be invited to the feast.
For me the key issue is the closed shop nature. If that goes I am far more open to a discussion.
Would a scenario where say there was a 16 team ESL. Teams in the ESL don't play in the national leagues. They just play that. They can have a cup to if they want.
Three teams get relegated at end of season.
Champions of national leagues go into a ESL qualification tournament (played midweek) following season. Three teams that qualify from that go into ESL (so effectively it takes two seasons to get promoted into ESL - year one win national league, year two win ESL qualification league.
Loads of fine tuning and initial interim measures but does that rough principle work ok?
I cant say I am sure.
(Incidentally not sure the weakest eight of those ESL teams are going to be too happy - they may not fancy seasons fighting a relegation battle)
It will be fun to hear one of these clubs (Spurs) referred to as ESL basement dwellers.
@DevC the whole point of the ESL is for franchise owners to have set income and profits not to have the risk of relegation. You can make up a whole new league and cup structure if you want. They don't.
You may well be right @Wendoverman but doesnt mean we have to give them all of what they want. Would the above be an acceptable compromise that we could live with or is it only status quo is good enough?
That risk could be partly covered by massive parachute payments in the event of relegation.
I think I've come up with a solution. We say, OK, you can piss off and form your franchise league - but - if you want it to be "super" it has to be the six best teams in England, so the top six of the premier league at the end of this season. Imagine Arsenal and Tottenham losing out on it to Leicester and West Ham, it would be beautiful to see.
@floyd Arsenal, surely, on this season's evidence, at least.
@drcongo wins the prize.
@DevC I don't think there should be a compromise at all. They go and the League is restructured. ESL Players not eligible to play for their nations or to play on loan in PL or lower down the league. All those happy to warm the bench on huge money can go to or stay in the ESL. The ones who want to play football in meaningful competition then have a choice.
I think you will find most players at these clubs would quite happily give up playing for their countries and pick up £500k per week @Wendoverman.
It all depends on whether you consider a kid in, for example Malaysia, streaming every match as important as a fan in Liverpool who's been going home and away since they were a kid, like their parents and grandparents before them.
If you do, then why wouldn't you go for it? There are millions more of the first example than the second.
But also, yeah, @Wendoverman is spot on. The entire point of this whole charade is to take away the jeopardy of not qualifying for the richest clubs. Without that there's no point them doing it
Coincidentally, removing risk for the super rich is also the entire point of liberal and neoliberal politics.
I am generally a cynical cove myself @mooneyman but I am not as convinced of that as yourself.
Yes, I know it's The Guardian but this is a very interesting take on the whole thing.https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2021/apr/20/supporters-of-the-rich-six-can-now-see-the-price-paid-for-success-manchester-city
You are very much a (small c) conservative Eric. You don't like change of any kind. You would prefer to have four divisions of a football league all playing at 3pm on a Saturday and a European cup just for the champions of those leagues. Who knows maybe that is the ideal world. But in today's world it is unrealistic.
I'm not sure quire how far we should compromise here, if at all. But I do see that conflict equally isn't going to benefit anyone either and if we don't compromise, it only makes conflict more likely. We can posture like the Government is, easy popularity and votes at no cost to them, or we can face reality and try to find something that isn't ideal but is better than the alternative.
If the big clubs will genuinely not accept anything that is not a de facto closed shop, then I think conflict may be inevitable. If however we can avoid that by meeting them halfway maybe that is a better solution than conflict.
I do see problems in the current situation that Bayern will win the German league virtually every year and so will PSG in France and Juventus in Italy. I can see that a PSG-Juventus league match on a standard Saturday might be more interesting to many and yes make more money than a Juventus-Crotone league game or for that matter a Man Utd-Barcelona league game on a weekday than a Champions league group game between Man U (partial) reserves and Krasnodar.
I can see why the big clubs want change. I don't at the moment see what change we can give them.
As perfect conditions for a @DevC '...greed is good I can see why the wealth creator guys are all feeling a bit hard done by let's see how we can make it work for them' scenario to be followed by 'if you are so clever what would you suggest?'...have been reached. I'm out.
I am no expert in labour laws, but does anyone here know if it is realistic to ban players from tournaments if they play for these clubs? Especially given they are already under contract.
All the compromise in the world isn’t going to help, the greedy bastards may change the wording but their intent is clear football has to unite and fight
I'm not in favour of the ESL = I don't like change "of any kind"
Even by Dev's standards this is one of the daftest things I've read in some time
I think the players, managers and technical staff would all probably have valid claims against UEFA/FIFA etc if they are working for those clubs under a contract that pre-exists the creation of the ESL - certainly under English law they cannot be punished or held responsible for actions of their employers that they were not party to deciding upon.
The situation changes once those pre-existing contracts expire or one is approached to join one of the greedy clubs after the ESL is set up as the player/staff member knows the consequence of their choice.
Let's be honest the clubs have nailed their colours to the ESL mast and it will happen, what we have now is a huge game of chicken between the football authorities, European Leagues and the greedy 12 - who blinks first and gives concessions is anyones guess
Chelsea blinked first!