Sadly, I’m not sure that many players nowadays would be too upset if they were banned from representing their country. That was certainly the impression I got a few years ago but, to be fair, there does seem to have been a resurgence of commitment under Gareth’s regime. Great guys these Gareths!
@MorrisItal_ said:
How about the national leagues creating replacement teams AFC... and let them ground share with nearby remaining member clubs, that would throw the cat among the pigeons
On second thoughts that’s a terrible idea
It's not a million miles away from being something decent. I wrote a bit for the wanderer a while back about horrendous owners, league shares and some kind of compulsory orders where if your owner pisses all your money away the relevant trust should be able to takeover the club under certain circumstances or their essence. Not easy at all but you can't have these pricks constantly dumping on fans. Enshrine the badge and the region in the community and let JP Morgan try and sell sponsorship and tickets for Merseyside FC Vs North London Gunners like some crappy computer game.
The Premier League is not ideal but a closed shop Super League would be a much worse entity to have at the top of football. The 6 greedy English clubs involved must have broken a Premier League rule. The Premier League should deduct a point per day for every day from their current totals until they renounce their plans. I would bet Tottenham and Arsenal would soon crack.
Absolutely, though the likes of Rio and Neville pontificating about those left behind from their Sky and BT microphones is hypocrisy let's not have that overshadow how shitty this idea is, Closed shops, most countries not included, entry based on someone shadys opinions of 20/21 balance sheets, 6 out of 20 clubs are Investment company owned English teams and they stay forever. No mention of how this becomes fairer and £ drips down in the future. All a load of old crap. Have to agree they should be thrown out of all other competitions and have players banned from National teams if they want this circus.
We really should fight this, there is enough outrage across the football world in this country to at least stand a chance. We need ammunition and weapons, to throw the clubs out of all other competitions is a long term nuclear option which could result in a divided circus like boxing.
Those that abhor the idea of further commodifying the passions that make football what it is need short term effective weapons - I believe a daily points deduction for each of the English Premier League clubs involved would be such a weapon. Even if the scheme is just a negotiating ploy deducting points would strengthen the hands of those who will negotiate for football rather than for money.
If others think a point a day deduction is a good idea I will have a good go at spreading it as wide as I can.
Money talks, always has and always will regrettably. Let them go with their spoilt, selfish, greedy and vastly overpaid players. They can take VAR with them as well!
Back bone is needed here by FIFA/UEFA and the Countries FAs. I feel like this is just a way to try and ringfence the co-efficient places in the new Champions League proposal and is not actually got any sporting merit. These clubs think UEFA will just back down. Time to throw the kitchen sink at them and call their bluff.
It's an ultimatum to UEFA to guarantee these clubs European games every season, regardless of whether they qualify or not.
This could take year's to resolve because the lawyers will get involved and the ESL have already told UEFA don't try and stop us the lawyers are ready.
The countries FAs and UEFA should, if they can within the current rules, revoke these clubs membership for the 2021-22 season from all domestic competitions. If those clubs back down and cancel the ESL and rejoin domestic leagues & cups, they should ban these clubs for 5 years from entering any European competitions, regardless. Players who join the ESL should get a 5 year ban from playing for their countries, if they cannot get that legally signed then FAs should refuse to pick the players.
Current TV companies should withhold money from the ESL clubs now due to breach of contract.
UEFA, the FAs, Sky, BT and other TV companies have created this issue and this could be the time to redress the balance. The German, French, Italian, Spanish and English leagues are all pretty boring with the same teams winning over and over again. Leicester being the only recent exception.
@Commoner said:
Players who join the ESL should get a 5 year ban from playing for their countries, if they cannot get that legally signed then FAs should refuse to pick the players.
It would harsh to penalise an employee for his/her employers actions. But any player transferring into or extending an existing contract should accept that they are then choosing to play in a league that prevents them from representing their countries.
Perhaps even adding a minimum of a year back at a qualifying club before international representation is possible.
I don't think this is a bluff for a few reasons. Firstly, Chase are committing billions to get this off the ground. I am not sure how well they are known over there, but they are not the type of corporation to be used as a pawn in someone else's game. They would only do this (to my mind) if there is something tangible and green in it for them.
Secondly, many of these owners are American, and simply do not care about the history of football, or the English pyramid. Stan Kroenke is actually from Missouri, but still screwed over St. Louis in order to move the Rams to L.A., where they have hardly any fans but will still make ridiculous money. He is willing to be massively unpopular for the sake of more money.
Lastly, these may be greedy men, but they are not dumb. They all know that this is a crossing of the Rubicon, and that it would be a stunningly unpopular decision (at first - never put it past people to adjust to a new reality and forget about their outrage). I don't think they would want to damage their brands this thoroughly if they weren't willing to see the whole thing through.
I could be wrong, and they may still not have realized just quite how much they have overreached, but I am guessing this whole enterprise is a lot more about analysis of money from America and the Far East than it is about whether their local fans will revolt.
@Commoner said:
Players who join the ESL should get a 5 year ban from playing for their countries, if they cannot get that legally signed then FAs should refuse to pick the players.
It would harsh to penalise an employee for his/her employers actions. But any player transferring into or extending an existing contract should accept that they are then choosing to play in a league that prevents them from representing their countries.
Perhaps even adding a minimum of a year back at a qualifying club before international representation is possible.
It was done in the 70's / 80's in cricket with the players that choose Packers money
@Shev said:
but I am guessing this whole enterprise is a lot more about analysis of money from America and the Far East than it is about whether their local fans will revolt.
This has nothing to do with fans in Europe. This is ALL about the America's and the Far East.
My view is let them go. Wave them goodbye, Reset football finances to a much more sensible level then we can all get on with it.
Football will really be a more varied (and better) place without those 6
@Commoner said:
Players who join the ESL should get a 5 year ban from playing for their countries, if they cannot get that legally signed then FAs should refuse to pick the players.
It would harsh to penalise an employee for his/her employers actions. But any player transferring into or extending an existing contract should accept that they are then choosing to play in a league that prevents them from representing their countries.
Perhaps even adding a minimum of a year back at a qualifying club before international representation is possible.
The players and their agents in the Big 6 are ruining the game as well with their monetary demands. Who needs £100k+ a week to live off? It's bloody ridiculous! I don't care if 100 overpaid footballers miss out on one Euro or World Cup. F&ck em!
I would thoroughly support a player revolt and strikes, refusal to play in competitions. I want UEFA/FIFA to actually ban the players at World Cups/Euros. Striking players would be allowed to play in the Euros but only once they terminated their contracts with these clubs.
I wonder whether this deal would break current contracts so players could leave the big 6 now if they want to play in the Summer.
I was going to say the PL race would be thrilling without the big six, but evidently West Ham would have a 9 point lead if all results against the big six were expunged! Either way, the likes of Everton, Leicester, West Ham and Leeds fighting for the title would be a breath of fresh air.
History of breakaway's (eg cricket and darts) is not encouraging. These clubs may be greedy bastards but they are not stupid. They know they have UEFA by the proverbials.
In the end a compromise will be found.
My guess, the bigger clubs will be guaranteed entry to the Champions League. Small clubs from smaller countries will play a qualifying competition to get the right to join them. Only way to stop it is if TV audiences around the world boycotted the new format. realistically that isn't going to happen.
@Guppys_Left_Leg said:
>
It was done in the 70's / 80's in cricket with the players that choose Packers money
Exactly my point. If a player CHOOSES to join or to extend their association beyond current contract they would know the implications before signing that new contract. For existing contracts these potential implications were not known and so the players (employees - albeit well paid employees) so should not be individually punished until they make a decision.
My recollection of the Packer Cricket was that players chose to join new teams rather than existing teams joining and so “forcing” the new competition on existing employees.
My recollection of the Packer Cricket was that players chose to join new teams rather than existing teams joining and so “forcing” the new competition on existing employees.
Yes, I believe that was the case.
Would be interesting to see if any players were prepared to put in a transfer request on the basis they could only play in a single 12 team competition.
We would then see if they are really just 'money grabbing bstrds' we all suspect many are
@DevC said:
History of breakaway's (eg cricket and darts) is not encouraging. These clubs may be greedy bastards but they are not stupid. They know they have UEFA by the proverbials.
In the end a compromise will be found.
My guess, the bigger clubs will be guaranteed entry to the Champions League. Small clubs from smaller countries will play a qualifying competition to get the right to join them. Only way to stop it is if TV audiences around the world boycotted the new format. realistically that isn't going to happen.
@DevC said:
My guess, the bigger clubs will be guaranteed entry to the Champions League. Small clubs from smaller countries will play a qualifying competition to get the right to join them. Only way to stop it is if TV audiences around the world boycotted the new format. realistically that isn't going to happen.
Interesting take, but it seems like strange timing, seeing as they were already in the midst of negotiating a revamped CL which would add four places based on historical co-efficient, thereby almost guaranteeing all 'big' clubs get in every year, unless they have an Arsenal-type season. If this did not go far enough, they were already round a table with UEFA, and could have strong-armed without going to war publicly.
To me, it seems to not just be about qualifying for the CL, but having a tournament where they keep all of the revenue, and guarantee a significant amount of matches each. Right now they still have the problem of potentially being knocked out of the CL early, and also much of the TV money being shared/re-distributed. What they want is an NFL-style football, where even being terribly run is never truly punished, but the money keeps rolling in.
In the NFL, the Cincinnati Bengals have gained a name over the years for spending the bare minimum (the salary cap has a floor as well as a ceiling), having the smallest scouting staff possible, and generally not putting too much into trying to actually compete for a championship. Yet the money keeps rolling in on the TV deals. How attractive would that be to someone like Kroenke? Many of these owners grew up with this model - and Kroenke and the Glazers actually own NFL teams and get to benefit from that model already. It is the endgame, to my mind.
Furthermore, these are global brands now detached from their fan bases. Arsenal fans in North London stop showing up to the Emirates? Start touring for part of the season, playing matches like Arsenal v Inter Milan in Shanghai and Man United v Barcelona in New York, at double the ticket prices.
Uefa register players. They should free all the players at the 15 to enable them to join 'legacy' clubs. Would be a right tear up in court but worth a go.
The worst aspect of this if it stands won't even be the tournament, it'll be the protesting teams being gradually bought off and the unseemly 'Billion dollar game' play offs that end up being the highlight of the year for the other teams and the new reason to piss money you haven't got on players you don't need.
It is high comedy hearing UEFA, the PL and specific PL clubs speaking out against greed as if they are the moral guardians of the game. I don't trust any of the outrage at that level. If this league gets up and running and everyone gets used to it, I could see many of these "outraged" big six fans slinking back to the stadiums if it turns out that the games are actually compelling.
@StrongestTeam said:
Uefa register players. They should free all the players at the 15 to enable them to join 'legacy' clubs. Would be a right tear up in court but worth a go.
The worst aspect of this if it stands won't even be the tournament, it'll be the protesting teams being gradually bought off and the unseemly 'Billion dollar game' play offs that end up being the highlight of the year for the other teams and the new reason to piss money you haven't got on players you don't need.
Spot on. Other PL clubs are outraged now, but if they are the one to receive the lucky golden ticket invite? They will roll over and let the Super League tickle their belly.
Comments
Sadly, I’m not sure that many players nowadays would be too upset if they were banned from representing their country. That was certainly the impression I got a few years ago but, to be fair, there does seem to have been a resurgence of commitment under Gareth’s regime. Great guys these Gareths!
It's not a million miles away from being something decent. I wrote a bit for the wanderer a while back about horrendous owners, league shares and some kind of compulsory orders where if your owner pisses all your money away the relevant trust should be able to takeover the club under certain circumstances or their essence. Not easy at all but you can't have these pricks constantly dumping on fans. Enshrine the badge and the region in the community and let JP Morgan try and sell sponsorship and tickets for Merseyside FC Vs North London Gunners like some crappy computer game.
We really should fight this, there is enough outrage across the football world in this country to at least stand a chance. We need ammunition and weapons, to throw the clubs out of all other competitions is a long term nuclear option which could result in a divided circus like boxing.
Those that abhor the idea of further commodifying the passions that make football what it is need short term effective weapons - I believe a daily points deduction for each of the English Premier League clubs involved would be such a weapon. Even if the scheme is just a negotiating ploy deducting points would strengthen the hands of those who will negotiate for football rather than for money.
If others think a point a day deduction is a good idea I will have a good go at spreading it as wide as I can.
Any Euro League that includes Spurs but not Bayern Munich can't be all that Super.
Any Euro League that includes Spurs can't be all that Super.
I'm quite encouraged by the level of outrage this has engendered across the media and among fans.
Would love to see it act as a catalyst for a complete (and fairer) reset of the distribution of wealth within the game.
Probably dreaming though.
Money talks, always has and always will regrettably. Let them go with their spoilt, selfish, greedy and vastly overpaid players. They can take VAR with them as well!
The doublespeak is outrageous selling this money grab as “fairer distribution” w**kers
Back bone is needed here by FIFA/UEFA and the Countries FAs. I feel like this is just a way to try and ringfence the co-efficient places in the new Champions League proposal and is not actually got any sporting merit. These clubs think UEFA will just back down. Time to throw the kitchen sink at them and call their bluff.
It's an ultimatum to UEFA to guarantee these clubs European games every season, regardless of whether they qualify or not.
This could take year's to resolve because the lawyers will get involved and the ESL have already told UEFA don't try and stop us the lawyers are ready.
The countries FAs and UEFA should, if they can within the current rules, revoke these clubs membership for the 2021-22 season from all domestic competitions. If those clubs back down and cancel the ESL and rejoin domestic leagues & cups, they should ban these clubs for 5 years from entering any European competitions, regardless. Players who join the ESL should get a 5 year ban from playing for their countries, if they cannot get that legally signed then FAs should refuse to pick the players.
Current TV companies should withhold money from the ESL clubs now due to breach of contract.
UEFA, the FAs, Sky, BT and other TV companies have created this issue and this could be the time to redress the balance. The German, French, Italian, Spanish and English leagues are all pretty boring with the same teams winning over and over again. Leicester being the only recent exception.
Ital, Vital, couldn’t agree more.
It would harsh to penalise an employee for his/her employers actions. But any player transferring into or extending an existing contract should accept that they are then choosing to play in a league that prevents them from representing their countries.
Perhaps even adding a minimum of a year back at a qualifying club before international representation is possible.
I don't think this is a bluff for a few reasons. Firstly, Chase are committing billions to get this off the ground. I am not sure how well they are known over there, but they are not the type of corporation to be used as a pawn in someone else's game. They would only do this (to my mind) if there is something tangible and green in it for them.
Secondly, many of these owners are American, and simply do not care about the history of football, or the English pyramid. Stan Kroenke is actually from Missouri, but still screwed over St. Louis in order to move the Rams to L.A., where they have hardly any fans but will still make ridiculous money. He is willing to be massively unpopular for the sake of more money.
Lastly, these may be greedy men, but they are not dumb. They all know that this is a crossing of the Rubicon, and that it would be a stunningly unpopular decision (at first - never put it past people to adjust to a new reality and forget about their outrage). I don't think they would want to damage their brands this thoroughly if they weren't willing to see the whole thing through.
I could be wrong, and they may still not have realized just quite how much they have overreached, but I am guessing this whole enterprise is a lot more about analysis of money from America and the Far East than it is about whether their local fans will revolt.
Great post @Shev with some disturbing insights. Can we stop the world? Any one else want to get off !
It was done in the 70's / 80's in cricket with the players that choose Packers money
This has nothing to do with fans in Europe. This is ALL about the America's and the Far East.
My view is let them go. Wave them goodbye, Reset football finances to a much more sensible level then we can all get on with it.
Football will really be a more varied (and better) place without those 6
The players and their agents in the Big 6 are ruining the game as well with their monetary demands. Who needs £100k+ a week to live off? It's bloody ridiculous! I don't care if 100 overpaid footballers miss out on one Euro or World Cup. F&ck em!
I would thoroughly support a player revolt and strikes, refusal to play in competitions. I want UEFA/FIFA to actually ban the players at World Cups/Euros. Striking players would be allowed to play in the Euros but only once they terminated their contracts with these clubs.
I wonder whether this deal would break current contracts so players could leave the big 6 now if they want to play in the Summer.
I was going to say the PL race would be thrilling without the big six, but evidently West Ham would have a 9 point lead if all results against the big six were expunged! Either way, the likes of Everton, Leicester, West Ham and Leeds fighting for the title would be a breath of fresh air.
History of breakaway's (eg cricket and darts) is not encouraging. These clubs may be greedy bastards but they are not stupid. They know they have UEFA by the proverbials.
In the end a compromise will be found.
My guess, the bigger clubs will be guaranteed entry to the Champions League. Small clubs from smaller countries will play a qualifying competition to get the right to join them. Only way to stop it is if TV audiences around the world boycotted the new format. realistically that isn't going to happen.
Exactly my point. If a player CHOOSES to join or to extend their association beyond current contract they would know the implications before signing that new contract. For existing contracts these potential implications were not known and so the players (employees - albeit well paid employees) so should not be individually punished until they make a decision.
My recollection of the Packer Cricket was that players chose to join new teams rather than existing teams joining and so “forcing” the new competition on existing employees.
Yes, I believe that was the case.
Would be interesting to see if any players were prepared to put in a transfer request on the basis they could only play in a single 12 team competition.
We would then see if they are really just 'money grabbing bstrds' we all suspect many are
Sadly this is where it will end up
Interesting take, but it seems like strange timing, seeing as they were already in the midst of negotiating a revamped CL which would add four places based on historical co-efficient, thereby almost guaranteeing all 'big' clubs get in every year, unless they have an Arsenal-type season. If this did not go far enough, they were already round a table with UEFA, and could have strong-armed without going to war publicly.
To me, it seems to not just be about qualifying for the CL, but having a tournament where they keep all of the revenue, and guarantee a significant amount of matches each. Right now they still have the problem of potentially being knocked out of the CL early, and also much of the TV money being shared/re-distributed. What they want is an NFL-style football, where even being terribly run is never truly punished, but the money keeps rolling in.
In the NFL, the Cincinnati Bengals have gained a name over the years for spending the bare minimum (the salary cap has a floor as well as a ceiling), having the smallest scouting staff possible, and generally not putting too much into trying to actually compete for a championship. Yet the money keeps rolling in on the TV deals. How attractive would that be to someone like Kroenke? Many of these owners grew up with this model - and Kroenke and the Glazers actually own NFL teams and get to benefit from that model already. It is the endgame, to my mind.
Yes great post @Shev
Initially I thought as you @DevC however UEFAs statement couldn’t be clearer so I can’t see a compromise, either someone will blink or we have a split
.https://www.uefa.com/insideuefa/mediaservices/mediareleases/news/0268-12121411400e-7897186e699a-1000--joint-statement-on-super-league/
Furthermore, these are global brands now detached from their fan bases. Arsenal fans in North London stop showing up to the Emirates? Start touring for part of the season, playing matches like Arsenal v Inter Milan in Shanghai and Man United v Barcelona in New York, at double the ticket prices.
I’ve just found a NFL team I want to adopt...
Americans just don’t get sport do they
Oliver Dowden due to make a statement in the House shortly (unless I’ve just missed it!)
Speaking now - Sky 504.
Uefa register players. They should free all the players at the 15 to enable them to join 'legacy' clubs. Would be a right tear up in court but worth a go.
The worst aspect of this if it stands won't even be the tournament, it'll be the protesting teams being gradually bought off and the unseemly 'Billion dollar game' play offs that end up being the highlight of the year for the other teams and the new reason to piss money you haven't got on players you don't need.
It is high comedy hearing UEFA, the PL and specific PL clubs speaking out against greed as if they are the moral guardians of the game. I don't trust any of the outrage at that level. If this league gets up and running and everyone gets used to it, I could see many of these "outraged" big six fans slinking back to the stadiums if it turns out that the games are actually compelling.
Spot on. Other PL clubs are outraged now, but if they are the one to receive the lucky golden ticket invite? They will roll over and let the Super League tickle their belly.