Absolutely no coincidence that we've been so much more open at the back lately, no meaningful protection. 4-4-2 is a four or two-man midfield depending on the phase of play / state of the game, but the last two games we've basically had one in midfield - we almost pulled it off v Preston, but it hurt us tonight with all the tired legs. Even a fully fit Gape can't perform that role on his own.
Was tied up all evening but sounds like it was a good game to miss.
Not really seen it discussed much but it must be really hard to find time to work on tactical changes between games when there is so little time and everyone is showing signs of fatigue.
@bookertease said:
Was tied up all evening but sounds like it was a good game to miss.
Not really seen it discussed much but it must be really hard to find time to work on tactical changes between games when there is so little time and everyone is showing signs of fatigue.
Well some teams are barely training, if at all, between some of the Saturday and midweek games.
One of those performances where collectively the team look like they have never played football before and met 10 minutes before kick off.
Awful. Woke up at 3am just pissed off still
Overall, one to forget. The players looked tired as a collective. The back four really looked knackered. JJ, Knight and Grimmer have played nearly every minute this season or in Knights case 13 straight games.
The lack of substitutions early enough is normally because Gaz & Dobbo back our boys to get it right, quite often they do. However, last night Barnsley were so dominant at the back that I think we needed to freshen it up a lot earlier. Adeniran must still be injured as I don't see how Bloomfield and Mehmeti came on ahead of him. It would be nice to see some other squad members given a chance as well.
We have always struggled when only playing one proper center midfielder. It was a huge problem last night. Where possible we need to start with 2 midfielders who can do the defensive side well from Gape, Thompson, Adeniran and Pattison. You could probably add Wheeler & McCarthy to those four who could also do a job.
The long balls continued because we had no one in midfield who could put a foot on the ball linking defence and attack. Adeniran should have come on at half-time to try and do that.
Bayo looked really tired and I feel he should have come off with Kashket at half-time as well. With either Samuel or Parker and Fred coming on. I thought the few occasions we got the ball to Samuel he held the ball up pretty well, mainly because he was coming a little deeper to get the ball.
We've started quite a few away games in a row now with only one proper center mid, some due to injury and some due to tactics. I'd like to see us go back to two for the foreseeable future should injuries allow.
Even someone like Kashket has gone from not playing a huge amount last season, to suddenly starting almost every game. He's a youngster of course, but with the much tighter packed schedule even he will find it a tough ask.
Only 2 days to the next game and we have another mad burst of 3 games in 10 days again - before a week off.
A historically tricky fixture on Saturday and then a very tough ask next midweek - so any points will be a big bonus over the next two. That may help us!
Yes, that was a tough watch. It was clear that we'd made a conscious decision to take a very direct approach and evidently we stuck with it throughout. This will have been an informed decision based on our scouting of Barnsley, which contrasted the approach we took on Saturday. I think squad fatigue will have influenced this decision too. Saying this, I actually don't think we were as abject as people are making out. We had a reasonable amount of success going route one and picking up throw-ins and second balls in Barnsley's half. We also had the most possession we've had in a long time. To me, the biggest issue was that Bayo was clearly only about 30% fit and perhaps unsurprisingly everyone was looking weary (with the possible exception of Dom). It was just one of those games and you can understand why. The bigger concern is where we go from here. We desperately need players back, but we can't risk patching them up and ruling them out long term (which I fear Bayo could be in danger of if we keep flogging him like this).
Three in seven days from last night @Malone. Probably zero points too.
Do you think it’s tiredness that forces us to play hoofball? Surely other teams have tired players. How does Eddie Izzard run 26 marathons in 26 days (or whatever it was)? And how come we were able to play the ball on the deck in GA’s absence?
That last question obviously a touch tongue in cheek.
Hope @bookertease had a pleasant evening and has now freed himself from the bondage.
@micra said:
Three in seven days from last night @Malone. Probably zero points too.
Do you think it’s tiredness that forces us to play hoofball? Surely other teams have tired players. How does Eddie Izzard run 26 marathons in 26 days (or whatever it was)? And how come we were able to play the ball on the deck in GA’s absence?
That last question obviously a touch tongue in cheek.
Hope @bookertease had a pleasant evening and has now freed himself from the bondage.
I do a bit of running myself and while Eddie Izzard is very noble for his charity work etc - he's doing the running at an exceptionally low intensity - very slow.
So that's not a good example as such.
From my very low level footy days - hoofball is simple the easiest go-to when things aren't going well.
I don't even think Gaz tells them to do it so much. The Bayo ball is obviously a key tactic - but more those balls that are dropping slowly rightin the pen box, or proper crosses in from deep wide positions.
Those aimless punts from the back give him a very low chance of doing anything with it - as it's so much easier for a defender facing forward to win.
Top level sport is a precise business so being just a tiny bit out of position, a fraction slower than usual makes a massive difference. Physical tiredness also affects decision making.
A few of our players looked off the pace last night, take Gape for example. His role relies on him being in the right place at the right time. He was clearly off the pace last night and as a result the game just passed him by and he was unable to influence it.
We need some players back to full fitness, and quickly. Would be nice if we were told what was wrong with them all and how long they'll be out for. All this secrecy is hardly helping our points total is it?
We don't have the best technical players at this level to keep the ball on the deck like other teams can, but last night was another level of hoofing even for us.
The players looked leggy, and that tends to more hoofball if you're getting to the ball slightly slower, you've got less time to get the ball under control, you're more likely to be under pressure, and you've got less time to look up and find a team mate. For us that usually equals get rid, or pass it back to Alsopp to get rid
I'd like to see us be less attacking from the off away from home, I think this really drains us and is difficult to keep up for 90 minutes.
Keep our shape and keep some possession.
We almost played 5-0-5 last night as there was such a big gap between defence/Gape and the front 5.
This meant a lot of sprinting from our wingers to try and help the defence but also to then get back up to Bayo. A lot of the time they didn't really make it to either end of the pitch. These huge gaps then invite the opposition to attack at speed as there is huge amounts of space between our front 5 and back 5. It must be so tiring.
When Adeniran and/or Thompson have played we've mixed up hoofball and balls into him to bring out through the midfield and link the play. This is when we've looked at our best. Hopefully Adeniran can start on Saturday alongside Gape.
It all conspired last night.
Stewart being out, when he's a decent passer. The points @Username makes.
Gape with his hands full being the one "proper" centre midfielder in there.
Barnsley having clearly recognised McCleary has real quality when he gets on the ball and at times triple teaming him.
@Malone said:
Even someone like Kashket has gone from not playing a huge amount last season, to suddenly starting almost every game. He's a youngster of course, but with the much tighter packed schedule even he will find it a tough ask.
I'm not sure you can describe a 24 year old footballer as a youngster (in fact he's 25 in February).
IF Stewart is fit then I'd honestly consider playing wing-backs (two from McCarthy, Fred and Wheeler) on Saturday and matching Coventry's 3-4-1-2. Get it right and you can very effectively nullify that system (although you then it into a very boring game). I fear another demolition job with the set-up from last night - JJ particularly kept getting caught up field, and if we can't cover him then he needs to be told to be less adventurous, because that's the second time in three games it's cost us a goal.
I'm sort of with @YorkExile AND @eric_plant it was a disappointing display but we were putting some nice stuff together at times the problem was being that tiny bit off the boil physically and our defence was not being protected as it usually is, so though Horgan and McLeary were giving it a go we were not reaching little dinked balls or short passes that might have given us a run at the goal before the Barnsley players who would then raid. Their defence had the better of Bayo, but he was getting more in the second so I can see why GA might not have subbed him. Having said that...Parker, Mehmeti and Samuel might have made a difference coming on much much earlier. We lose we learn as the cliche goes. I think you lot are going to have to do some heavy lifting on Saturday. I'm much more worried about Coventry now than I was 24 hours ago!
@Malone said:
Even someone like Kashket has gone from not playing a huge amount last season, to suddenly starting almost every game. He's a youngster of course, but with the much tighter packed schedule even he will find it a tough ask.
I'm not sure you can describe a 24 year old footballer as a youngster (in fact he's 25 in February).
Haha fair enough! I suppose I'm applying it from my own age!
But then pretty much all the players would be that!
I wonder if the Couhigs care about our style of play. When we’re winning I guess not, but having a reputation as a dreadful team to watch isn’t going to help their ‘worldwide phenomenon’ grow or indeed ticket sales once fans are back.
@Malone said:
Even someone like Kashket has gone from not playing a huge amount last season, to suddenly starting almost every game. He's a youngster of course, but with the much tighter packed schedule even he will find it a tough ask.
I'm not sure you can describe a 24 year old footballer as a youngster (in fact he's 25 in February).
Haha fair enough! I suppose I'm applying it from my own age!
But then pretty much all the players would be that!
Some interesting stuff there and, above all, I suppose I have to grudgingly accept that jogging for five hours a day for the best part of a month takes less out of someone than playing football for 90 minutes twice a week. I didn’t notice those gargantuan defenders kicking our players either.
If tiredness is the main reason for aimless hoofing, I don’t understand why we didn’t take advantage, at an earlier stage, of the five substitutes rule.
Interesting point about JJ’s forward rampaging (!) raised by @chairboyscentral. It was clear in the second half that McCleary had been detailed to provide cover in JJ’s area. He did that very well but what a waste when it came to attacking options.
Interesting to read the more restrained and considered comments this morning. Knee jerk reactions in the wake of a poor performance are never a good idea.
I tried to put the display into context last night by reminding the more critical posters where we have come from and how difficult it is for a club of our size to compete in this division. Some people didn’t take kindly to that and that’s their prerogative, I was simply expressing my opinion as they were expressing theirs.
I have read the comments about our style of play and agree that it can be unattractive at times, but it’s not realistic to expect the manager to abandon a way of playing that has served him so well. Also, the majority of other clubs have been able to purchase more technically gifted players, many of them of PL standard, and taking them on at their own game would likely lead to failure.
We are surely better sticking with what we do best and when we can welcome back key players like Stewart, Thompson, Taffazolli, Adeniran and Ickpeazu, things will improve. Keep the faith.
@Swiss_Exile said:
I wonder if the Couhigs care about our style of play. When we’re winning I guess not, but having a reputation as a dreadful team to watch isn’t going to help their ‘worldwide phenomenon’ grow or indeed ticket sales once fans are back.
I'm sure they know better than to get involved, our style and management took us from bottom of L2 to the Championship, our budget didn't, and we won't see radical change without huge investment in players.
I was disappointed last night that a change didn't seem to come earlier despite things not working, a small change in formation helped a bit at the break but then the subs were so late.
Without even really looking at wether launching at Bayo should be plan A you have to consider the impact on him longer term of making him play 90 often chasing lost causes when it's not happening for him. Matt Cecill seemed to be echoing the theory on ifollow that if it doesn't work, keep trying - it might work, but the more knackered he gets the worse his movement will get, and if he gets injured you really do need plan B.
Cov will be tricky, they always are, they know us from old, and have adapted better to the Championship. Not at all out of the question though that we up our game on the back of some reflection, a player or two returning and home fans being present. Will have to work hard, players will need to want the ball in tight areas and be prepared to work with it rather than treating it like a hot potato.
One thing that really annoyed me last night was predominantly the full backs, Jacobson and McCarty just aimlessly punting the ball up the wing, even if there was nobody there !
@HolmerBlue said:
One thing that really annoyed me last night was predominantly the full backs, Jacobson and McCarty just aimlessly punting the ball up the wing, even if there was nobody there !
McCleary did it a few times too, one lead to their winner.
Comments
Absolutely no coincidence that we've been so much more open at the back lately, no meaningful protection. 4-4-2 is a four or two-man midfield depending on the phase of play / state of the game, but the last two games we've basically had one in midfield - we almost pulled it off v Preston, but it hurt us tonight with all the tired legs. Even a fully fit Gape can't perform that role on his own.
Was tied up all evening but sounds like it was a good game to miss.
Not really seen it discussed much but it must be really hard to find time to work on tactical changes between games when there is so little time and everyone is showing signs of fatigue.
Well some teams are barely training, if at all, between some of the Saturday and midweek games.
Poor game very frustrating when you know on another day we would have easily beaten them. Injuries having big impact at the moment.
One of those performances where collectively the team look like they have never played football before and met 10 minutes before kick off.
Awful. Woke up at 3am just pissed off still
Very, very poor performance. Stopped watching after 70 mins as I couldn’t watch any more.
A real shame as we played some good football on Saturday.
Overall, one to forget. The players looked tired as a collective. The back four really looked knackered. JJ, Knight and Grimmer have played nearly every minute this season or in Knights case 13 straight games.
The lack of substitutions early enough is normally because Gaz & Dobbo back our boys to get it right, quite often they do. However, last night Barnsley were so dominant at the back that I think we needed to freshen it up a lot earlier. Adeniran must still be injured as I don't see how Bloomfield and Mehmeti came on ahead of him. It would be nice to see some other squad members given a chance as well.
We have always struggled when only playing one proper center midfielder. It was a huge problem last night. Where possible we need to start with 2 midfielders who can do the defensive side well from Gape, Thompson, Adeniran and Pattison. You could probably add Wheeler & McCarthy to those four who could also do a job.
The long balls continued because we had no one in midfield who could put a foot on the ball linking defence and attack. Adeniran should have come on at half-time to try and do that.
Bayo looked really tired and I feel he should have come off with Kashket at half-time as well. With either Samuel or Parker and Fred coming on. I thought the few occasions we got the ball to Samuel he held the ball up pretty well, mainly because he was coming a little deeper to get the ball.
We've started quite a few away games in a row now with only one proper center mid, some due to injury and some due to tactics. I'd like to see us go back to two for the foreseeable future should injuries allow.
Fingers crossed for Saturday!
Even someone like Kashket has gone from not playing a huge amount last season, to suddenly starting almost every game. He's a youngster of course, but with the much tighter packed schedule even he will find it a tough ask.
Only 2 days to the next game and we have another mad burst of 3 games in 10 days again - before a week off.
A historically tricky fixture on Saturday and then a very tough ask next midweek - so any points will be a big bonus over the next two. That may help us!
Yes, that was a tough watch. It was clear that we'd made a conscious decision to take a very direct approach and evidently we stuck with it throughout. This will have been an informed decision based on our scouting of Barnsley, which contrasted the approach we took on Saturday. I think squad fatigue will have influenced this decision too. Saying this, I actually don't think we were as abject as people are making out. We had a reasonable amount of success going route one and picking up throw-ins and second balls in Barnsley's half. We also had the most possession we've had in a long time. To me, the biggest issue was that Bayo was clearly only about 30% fit and perhaps unsurprisingly everyone was looking weary (with the possible exception of Dom). It was just one of those games and you can understand why. The bigger concern is where we go from here. We desperately need players back, but we can't risk patching them up and ruling them out long term (which I fear Bayo could be in danger of if we keep flogging him like this).
Three in seven days from last night @Malone. Probably zero points too.
Do you think it’s tiredness that forces us to play hoofball? Surely other teams have tired players. How does Eddie Izzard run 26 marathons in 26 days (or whatever it was)? And how come we were able to play the ball on the deck in GA’s absence?
That last question obviously a touch tongue in cheek.
Hope @bookertease had a pleasant evening and has now freed himself from the bondage.
I guess Eddie Izzard doesn't have a bunch of 6'5" centre halves kicking him on a regular basis.
I do a bit of running myself and while Eddie Izzard is very noble for his charity work etc - he's doing the running at an exceptionally low intensity - very slow.
So that's not a good example as such.
From my very low level footy days - hoofball is simple the easiest go-to when things aren't going well.
I don't even think Gaz tells them to do it so much. The Bayo ball is obviously a key tactic - but more those balls that are dropping slowly rightin the pen box, or proper crosses in from deep wide positions.
Those aimless punts from the back give him a very low chance of doing anything with it - as it's so much easier for a defender facing forward to win.
Top level sport is a precise business so being just a tiny bit out of position, a fraction slower than usual makes a massive difference. Physical tiredness also affects decision making.
A few of our players looked off the pace last night, take Gape for example. His role relies on him being in the right place at the right time. He was clearly off the pace last night and as a result the game just passed him by and he was unable to influence it.
We need some players back to full fitness, and quickly. Would be nice if we were told what was wrong with them all and how long they'll be out for. All this secrecy is hardly helping our points total is it?
Long ball is also far lower risk, and easier.
We don't have the best technical players at this level to keep the ball on the deck like other teams can, but last night was another level of hoofing even for us.
The players looked leggy, and that tends to more hoofball if you're getting to the ball slightly slower, you've got less time to get the ball under control, you're more likely to be under pressure, and you've got less time to look up and find a team mate. For us that usually equals get rid, or pass it back to Alsopp to get rid
I'd like to see us be less attacking from the off away from home, I think this really drains us and is difficult to keep up for 90 minutes.
Keep our shape and keep some possession.
We almost played 5-0-5 last night as there was such a big gap between defence/Gape and the front 5.
This meant a lot of sprinting from our wingers to try and help the defence but also to then get back up to Bayo. A lot of the time they didn't really make it to either end of the pitch. These huge gaps then invite the opposition to attack at speed as there is huge amounts of space between our front 5 and back 5. It must be so tiring.
When Adeniran and/or Thompson have played we've mixed up hoofball and balls into him to bring out through the midfield and link the play. This is when we've looked at our best. Hopefully Adeniran can start on Saturday alongside Gape.
It all conspired last night.
Stewart being out, when he's a decent passer. The points @Username makes.
Gape with his hands full being the one "proper" centre midfielder in there.
Barnsley having clearly recognised McCleary has real quality when he gets on the ball and at times triple teaming him.
Roll on Saturday basically!
I'm not sure you can describe a 24 year old footballer as a youngster (in fact he's 25 in February).
IF Stewart is fit then I'd honestly consider playing wing-backs (two from McCarthy, Fred and Wheeler) on Saturday and matching Coventry's 3-4-1-2. Get it right and you can very effectively nullify that system (although you then it into a very boring game). I fear another demolition job with the set-up from last night - JJ particularly kept getting caught up field, and if we can't cover him then he needs to be told to be less adventurous, because that's the second time in three games it's cost us a goal.
I'm sort of with @YorkExile AND @eric_plant it was a disappointing display but we were putting some nice stuff together at times the problem was being that tiny bit off the boil physically and our defence was not being protected as it usually is, so though Horgan and McLeary were giving it a go we were not reaching little dinked balls or short passes that might have given us a run at the goal before the Barnsley players who would then raid. Their defence had the better of Bayo, but he was getting more in the second so I can see why GA might not have subbed him. Having said that...Parker, Mehmeti and Samuel might have made a difference coming on much much earlier. We lose we learn as the cliche goes. I think you lot are going to have to do some heavy lifting on Saturday. I'm much more worried about Coventry now than I was 24 hours ago!
Haha fair enough! I suppose I'm applying it from my own age!
But then pretty much all the players would be that!
I wonder if the Couhigs care about our style of play. When we’re winning I guess not, but having a reputation as a dreadful team to watch isn’t going to help their ‘worldwide phenomenon’ grow or indeed ticket sales once fans are back.
and policemen
and doctors
and MPs
Some interesting stuff there and, above all, I suppose I have to grudgingly accept that jogging for five hours a day for the best part of a month takes less out of someone than playing football for 90 minutes twice a week. I didn’t notice those gargantuan defenders kicking our players either.
If tiredness is the main reason for aimless hoofing, I don’t understand why we didn’t take advantage, at an earlier stage, of the five substitutes rule.
Interesting point about JJ’s forward rampaging (!) raised by @chairboyscentral. It was clear in the second half that McCleary had been detailed to provide cover in JJ’s area. He did that very well but what a waste when it came to attacking options.
@micra Going to invent a new word here and say he was 'ramblaging' forward.
Interesting to read the more restrained and considered comments this morning. Knee jerk reactions in the wake of a poor performance are never a good idea.
I tried to put the display into context last night by reminding the more critical posters where we have come from and how difficult it is for a club of our size to compete in this division. Some people didn’t take kindly to that and that’s their prerogative, I was simply expressing my opinion as they were expressing theirs.
I have read the comments about our style of play and agree that it can be unattractive at times, but it’s not realistic to expect the manager to abandon a way of playing that has served him so well. Also, the majority of other clubs have been able to purchase more technically gifted players, many of them of PL standard, and taking them on at their own game would likely lead to failure.
We are surely better sticking with what we do best and when we can welcome back key players like Stewart, Thompson, Taffazolli, Adeniran and Ickpeazu, things will improve. Keep the faith.
I'm sure they know better than to get involved, our style and management took us from bottom of L2 to the Championship, our budget didn't, and we won't see radical change without huge investment in players.
I was disappointed last night that a change didn't seem to come earlier despite things not working, a small change in formation helped a bit at the break but then the subs were so late.
Without even really looking at wether launching at Bayo should be plan A you have to consider the impact on him longer term of making him play 90 often chasing lost causes when it's not happening for him. Matt Cecill seemed to be echoing the theory on ifollow that if it doesn't work, keep trying - it might work, but the more knackered he gets the worse his movement will get, and if he gets injured you really do need plan B.
Cov will be tricky, they always are, they know us from old, and have adapted better to the Championship. Not at all out of the question though that we up our game on the back of some reflection, a player or two returning and home fans being present. Will have to work hard, players will need to want the ball in tight areas and be prepared to work with it rather than treating it like a hot potato.
One thing that really annoyed me last night was predominantly the full backs, Jacobson and McCarty just aimlessly punting the ball up the wing, even if there was nobody there !
McCleary did it a few times too, one lead to their winner.
@micra McCleary made a lot of interceptions last night.
As someone we would think more of as a tricky slick creative winger it was quite odd to see.
Shame he gave the pen away to counter balance the one he won!