@drcongo said:
Racism isn't always intentional @Right_in_the_Middle, I'm sure you already know that though and just fancy a dig. Again.
And sometime racism is wrongly assumed due to unconscious bias but I'm sure you know that too.
Much like those who perceive digs when none are there.
Unconscious bias is still bias, that's one of the big problems with tackling the problem, people unwilling to admit their own imperfections, and seeing racism only as an overt or offensive action.
Thankfully as a society we're largely beyond the point where outright outspoken racists are accepted, but the deeper rooted less obvious things still need addressing.
@Right_in_the_Middle said:
And sometime racism is wrongly assumed due to unconscious bias but I'm sure you know that too.
Much like those who perceive digs when none are there.
Your gargantuan effort to seem clever there sadly went to waste as thanks to your dangling participle you've just written what I said but in slightly different terms. Yes, someone can accidentally say or do something racist due to unconscious bias. It's worth doing a little reading on the subject, as it's something that we all definitely do and a huge reason that BLM are marching in this country.
@drcongo said:
Racism isn't always intentional @Right_in_the_Middle, I'm sure you already know that though and just fancy a dig. Again.
And sometime racism is wrongly assumed due to unconscious bias but I'm sure you know that too.
Much like those who perceive digs when none are there.
Unconscious bias is still bias, that's one of the big problems with tackling the problem, people unwilling to admit their own imperfections, and seeing racism only as an overt or offensive action.
Thankfully as a society we're largely beyond the point where outright outspoken racists are accepted, but the deeper rooted less obvious things still need addressing.
I haven't been able to work out something I heard today.
A young lady said on a TV interview that no-one had ever used the N word to her face but she was sure they did behind her back.
Feeling that people are being racist to her without actually hearing it has elements of paranoia, fear and an unconscious bias. It is sad state of affairs if someone believes racism is there without ever seeing it.
How can you call that out? Who is being racist to her?
Actually not only is it no longer true...she denies she ever supported it. Like Trump and most populist politicians her words were just listened to on live television and taken at face value as being things she believed. Schoolboy error.
@drcongo said:
Racism isn't always intentional @Right_in_the_Middle, I'm sure you already know that though and just fancy a dig. Again.
And sometime racism is wrongly assumed due to unconscious bias but I'm sure you know that too.
Much like those who perceive digs when none are there.
Unconscious bias is still bias, that's one of the big problems with tackling the problem, people unwilling to admit their own imperfections, and seeing racism only as an overt or offensive action.
Thankfully as a society we're largely beyond the point where outright outspoken racists are accepted, but the deeper rooted less obvious things still need addressing.
I haven't been able to work out something I heard today.
A young lady said on a TV interview that no-one had ever used the N word to her face but she was sure they did behind her back.
Feeling that people are being racist to her without actually hearing it has elements of paranoia, fear and an unconscious bias. It is sad state of affairs if someone believes racism is there without ever seeing it.
How can you call that out? Who is being racist to her?
@Username said:
How anyone can anything good to say about her is beyond me, the snippets of her behaviour that reached the media are only the tip of the iceberg, vile bully by all accounts.
Has that been proven yet or are they still accusations atm?
@Username said:
How anyone can anything good to say about her is beyond me, the snippets of her behaviour that reached the media are only the tip of the iceberg, vile bully by all accounts.
Has that been proven yet or are they still accusations atm?
Having personal friends who work(ed) in the civil service and in the Westminster bubble, I trust them to not make things up. Not like that particular string is needed to be added to her bow to make her an awful person anyway, her voting record speaks for itself
I think the upshot of all this is...most of us ( I am making assumptions here about the Gasroom demographic) cannot really pass judgement on how a BAME person feels about how they have been treated or perceives the way they have been treated. As I noted above, if you are stopped four times driving your car, it may well be the police who stopped you may not be racists seeing a black man in a nice car and thinking something is up but there's a pretty good chance by the fourth time in one day, you might suspect they might be.
@Wendoverman said:
I think the upshot of all this is...most of us ( I am making assumptions here about the Gasroom demographic) cannot really pass judgement on how a BAME person feels about how they have been treated or perceives the way they have been treated. As I noted above, if you are stopped four times driving your car, it may well be the police who stopped you may not be racists seeing a black man in a nice car and thinking something is up but there's a pretty good chance by the fourth time in one day, you might suspect they might be.
Exactly, and when the BAME community are telling us it exists, if we're putting our heads in the sand and saying no it doesn't because things are better than they used to be, we are the problem.
@Wendoverman said:
I think the upshot of all this is...most of us ( I am making assumptions here about the Gasroom demographic) cannot really pass judgement on how a BAME person feels about how they have been treated or perceives the way they have been treated. As I noted above, if you are stopped four times driving your car, it may well be the police who stopped you may not be racists seeing a black man in a nice car and thinking something is up but there's a pretty good chance by the fourth time in one day, you might suspect they might be.
Exactly, and when the BAME community are telling us it exists, if we're putting our heads in the sand and saying no it doesn't because things are better than they used to be, we are the problem.
Indeed. We can also become part of the solution, through educating ourselves (and not expecting those who face discrimination to have to do that for us) and through talking openly to others who are BAME, LGBTQ+, differently abled, or otherwise diverse from us about the challenges they face. This requires listening to hear and not to justify and defend ourselves, even when that is hard and painful.
@RogertheBandito said:
BAME,LGBTQ+ won't be long before we run out of letters to pigeonhole people Mr Boobs...
Am I pigeonholing people by using terms used by many people who as part of describing their identity use such terms? I hope not although I have always had a problem with adding ‘community’ after such terms. You rarely hear of anyone being spoken of as part of the ‘White’ or ‘Straight’ or ‘Abled’ community. People who might define as such tend to be treated as individuals whereas people who as part of their identity might self define as, for example, gay can often be seen as part of the ‘gay community’ and then seen as fitting a stereotype of said community. “Gay men like Kylie, black men are good at sports” and so on with such absurdist nonsense.
So although I’m not clear on the subtext behind your post Mr Bandito, it has been useful in in helping me reflect (publicly) on my use of such terms. So thank you for that.
@glasshalffull said:
Surely you’re not suggesting that the Home Secretary, Britain’s first BAME cabinet minister who was born to a Ugandan-Indian, isn’t concerned about racism?
Oh dear. You haven't spotted that Johnson / Cummings have wheeled out Numberwang Patel as their fig leaf on this. Despite being the holder of a senior cabinet post she's usually invisible.
Patel is the ultimate example of that despicable character trait where people kick the ladder away as soon as they've climbed it. Remember, this is the woman who sneered at the North London elite, despite living in North London and being a fully paid up member of the elite.
I don't think she'd give two shits about the problem - utterly without empathy. Which is what makes her the perfect Tory.
So, you’re saying that her Ugandan and Indian parentage, the colour of her skin and the fact that she’s been racially abused herself is irrelevant because she’s a Tory? Astonishing hypocrisy.
Have you read the post above from Arnos Grove? He clearly suggests that she ‘wouldn’t give a shit about the problem (racism)’ and is without empathy, making her ‘the perfect Tory’. Not sure there’s any room for misinterpretation there.
Any racism that has ever been pointed towards Priti Patel (as anyone) should be rooted out and called out for what it is.
That doesn't distract from the fact that Patel's own words, actions and voting record highlight what kind of person she is, and Arnos Grove is bang on the money with his / her analysis of exactly that.
Forgive me, but your first sentence seems to somewhat contradict your last sentence. You deplore the fact that Patel has been the victim of racism but support the suggestion by Arnos Grove that she’s the sort of person who doesn’t care about the problem. Surely racism is abhorrent no matter who the victim is and how much you might dislike them.
@glasshalffull said:
Forgive me, but your first sentence seems to somewhat contradict your last sentence. You deplore the fact that Patel has been the victim of racism but support the suggestion by Arnos Grove that she’s the sort of person who doesn’t care about the problem. Surely racism is abhorrent no matter who the victim is and how much you might dislike them.
I deplore all forms of racism Alan, yes.
I read Arnos Grove's depiction of Priti Patel as someone who does not care for the plight of anyone other than herself and her Tory friends, and it is with that which I agree, and would suggest most of her recent career in politics has pointed towards too.
If your reading of Arnos Grove's post is that Patel doesn't care about being on the receiving end of racism, or for the public airing of racist abuse, then I cannot speak for his / her intentions in posting, and will leave it to them to respond to you on that one.
You can still be a victim of racism and lack empathy with others who are victims of racism.
I seem to recall reading research (not just about UK) that indicated that to succeed in politics being empathetic doesn’t really help (which makes sense when you think about it).
Ok, thanks for keeping it polite and whilst never forgetting the importance of the subject we’ve been debating, let’s look forward to what hopefully will be some good football news to discuss tomorrow.
@Wendoverman said:
I'm sure Priti Patel is as concerned about equality for BAME people as Mrs Thatcher was about equality for women.
I got two thumbs down for this...I demand a recount. I must admit I was a bit shocked when after an excellent interview about the issue with the singer Jamelia this morning on the BBC in which she raised many interesting and thought-provoking thoughts...she was asked 'So what should (the govt) do about it...?' Really BBC? Poor woman...asked to suggest wide-ranging government policy on racial issues in thirty seconds before the weather.
Anyone seen the pictures of "counter-protestors" calling themselves either "statue defenders" or "football lads" pulling actual Nazi salutes in London today while chanting their support of Winston Churchill? I look forward to seeing Boris and Priti denouncing this behaviour (clue: they won't).
Yes I've seen it. TBH if a Nazi had used that as a salute, the Gestapo would have shot them. Should have a flat hand not finger pointing! I've looked very closely at the still photo shots to see if my perception was wrong, honestly, may have spotted one? I'm not taking sides in this just being honest with my perception.
Comments
And sometime racism is wrongly assumed due to unconscious bias but I'm sure you know that too.
Much like those who perceive digs when none are there.
Unconscious bias is still bias, that's one of the big problems with tackling the problem, people unwilling to admit their own imperfections, and seeing racism only as an overt or offensive action.
Thankfully as a society we're largely beyond the point where outright outspoken racists are accepted, but the deeper rooted less obvious things still need addressing.
Your gargantuan effort to seem clever there sadly went to waste as thanks to your dangling participle you've just written what I said but in slightly different terms. Yes, someone can accidentally say or do something racist due to unconscious bias. It's worth doing a little reading on the subject, as it's something that we all definitely do and a huge reason that BLM are marching in this country.
I haven't been able to work out something I heard today.
A young lady said on a TV interview that no-one had ever used the N word to her face but she was sure they did behind her back.
Feeling that people are being racist to her without actually hearing it has elements of paranoia, fear and an unconscious bias. It is sad state of affairs if someone believes racism is there without ever seeing it.
How can you call that out? Who is being racist to her?
Actually not only is it no longer true...she denies she ever supported it. Like Trump and most populist politicians her words were just listened to on live television and taken at face value as being things she believed. Schoolboy error.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/priti-patel-death-penalty-capital-punishment-home-secretary-boris-johnson-a9037651.html
Not really sure what point your making here?
Has that been proven yet or are they still accusations atm?
Having personal friends who work(ed) in the civil service and in the Westminster bubble, I trust them to not make things up. Not like that particular string is needed to be added to her bow to make her an awful person anyway, her voting record speaks for itself
I'll take your word for it as I'm not in a position to know either way.
I think the upshot of all this is...most of us ( I am making assumptions here about the Gasroom demographic) cannot really pass judgement on how a BAME person feels about how they have been treated or perceives the way they have been treated. As I noted above, if you are stopped four times driving your car, it may well be the police who stopped you may not be racists seeing a black man in a nice car and thinking something is up but there's a pretty good chance by the fourth time in one day, you might suspect they might be.
Exactly, and when the BAME community are telling us it exists, if we're putting our heads in the sand and saying no it doesn't because things are better than they used to be, we are the problem.
Indeed. We can also become part of the solution, through educating ourselves (and not expecting those who face discrimination to have to do that for us) and through talking openly to others who are BAME, LGBTQ+, differently abled, or otherwise diverse from us about the challenges they face. This requires listening to hear and not to justify and defend ourselves, even when that is hard and painful.
BAME,LGBTQ+ won't be long before we run out of letters to pigeonhole people Mr Boobs...
I suppose one of the good things of seeing people's responses to hearing about struggles for equality is it's easy to root out those who are ignorant.
Am I pigeonholing people by using terms used by many people who as part of describing their identity use such terms? I hope not although I have always had a problem with adding ‘community’ after such terms. You rarely hear of anyone being spoken of as part of the ‘White’ or ‘Straight’ or ‘Abled’ community. People who might define as such tend to be treated as individuals whereas people who as part of their identity might self define as, for example, gay can often be seen as part of the ‘gay community’ and then seen as fitting a stereotype of said community. “Gay men like Kylie, black men are good at sports” and so on with such absurdist nonsense.
So although I’m not clear on the subtext behind your post Mr Bandito, it has been useful in in helping me reflect (publicly) on my use of such terms. So thank you for that.
Can someone change the title. I still keep reading it and thinking "will they?" then remember...doh.
Anyone watch Sitting in Limbo on BBC tonight and still don’t understand why BLM is important?
Oh dear. You haven't spotted that Johnson / Cummings have wheeled out Numberwang Patel as their fig leaf on this. Despite being the holder of a senior cabinet post she's usually invisible.
Patel is the ultimate example of that despicable character trait where people kick the ladder away as soon as they've climbed it. Remember, this is the woman who sneered at the North London elite, despite living in North London and being a fully paid up member of the elite.
I don't think she'd give two shits about the problem - utterly without empathy. Which is what makes her the perfect Tory.
So, you’re saying that her Ugandan and Indian parentage, the colour of her skin and the fact that she’s been racially abused herself is irrelevant because she’s a Tory? Astonishing hypocrisy.
Not sure that anyone said that.
Have you read the post above from Arnos Grove? He clearly suggests that she ‘wouldn’t give a shit about the problem (racism)’ and is without empathy, making her ‘the perfect Tory’. Not sure there’s any room for misinterpretation there.
Any racism that has ever been pointed towards Priti Patel (as anyone) should be rooted out and called out for what it is.
That doesn't distract from the fact that Patel's own words, actions and voting record highlight what kind of person she is, and Arnos Grove is bang on the money with his / her analysis of exactly that.
Forgive me, but your first sentence seems to somewhat contradict your last sentence. You deplore the fact that Patel has been the victim of racism but support the suggestion by Arnos Grove that she’s the sort of person who doesn’t care about the problem. Surely racism is abhorrent no matter who the victim is and how much you might dislike them.
I deplore all forms of racism Alan, yes.
I read Arnos Grove's depiction of Priti Patel as someone who does not care for the plight of anyone other than herself and her Tory friends, and it is with that which I agree, and would suggest most of her recent career in politics has pointed towards too.
If your reading of Arnos Grove's post is that Patel doesn't care about being on the receiving end of racism, or for the public airing of racist abuse, then I cannot speak for his / her intentions in posting, and will leave it to them to respond to you on that one.
You can still be a victim of racism and lack empathy with others who are victims of racism.
I seem to recall reading research (not just about UK) that indicated that to succeed in politics being empathetic doesn’t really help (which makes sense when you think about it).
O
Ok, thanks for keeping it polite and whilst never forgetting the importance of the subject we’ve been debating, let’s look forward to what hopefully will be some good football news to discuss tomorrow.
God I miss the Vere........
I got two thumbs down for this...I demand a recount. I must admit I was a bit shocked when after an excellent interview about the issue with the singer Jamelia this morning on the BBC in which she raised many interesting and thought-provoking thoughts...she was asked 'So what should (the govt) do about it...?' Really BBC? Poor woman...asked to suggest wide-ranging government policy on racial issues in thirty seconds before the weather.
Anyone seen the pictures of "counter-protestors" calling themselves either "statue defenders" or "football lads" pulling actual Nazi salutes in London today while chanting their support of Winston Churchill? I look forward to seeing Boris and Priti denouncing this behaviour (clue: they won't).
Yes I've seen it. TBH if a Nazi had used that as a salute, the Gestapo would have shot them. Should have a flat hand not finger pointing! I've looked very closely at the still photo shots to see if my perception was wrong, honestly, may have spotted one? I'm not taking sides in this just being honest with my perception.