@Brownie said:
"Damn, those BLM folk better hold in their anger at black people being murdered by police officers till they're told its okay to protest!"
Everyone has a personal responsibility to make iit safe to protest. It's not safe at the moment. Do people really need to be told?
No. People know the risks. And despite knowing the risks they still believe it is more important to protest at this moment in time. Just think about that for a moment. People are knowingly putting themselves, their family and their community at risk because they judge that NOW is the best time to make their voices heard and in the hope that changes will be made to make the lives of future generations of black people better.
We should be understanding and supportive of them.
And whilst I’m on a rant, the Prime Minister made a similar risk assessment in deciding not to censure Dominic Cummings, thereby encouraging millions to ignore or deliberately disobey the guidelines/rules of whatever. I know which of these I consider the more honourable.
I think its perfectly reasonable to say that post Cummings the disease will spread because people wont adhere to the rules. Yesterday and today legitimate grievances are being expressed in a way which does concern and which will make it harder going forward to for the police to disperse social gathering and protests by those with much less validity ( cast your mind back to the conspiracy loons in Hyde park in recent weeks) Does saying this really make me somebody who doesn't think Black Lives Matter. That seems a little binary.
@Brownie said:
"Damn, those BLM folk better hold in their anger at black people being murdered by police officers till they're told its okay to protest!"
When it's safe for everyone. Or is it only BLM and forget everyone else?
Sorry mate, I usually enjoy your posts on here but this is an appalling take.
BAME people are statistically more likely to die of Covid-19, mainly due to socio-economic situations which systemic racism within the UK (yes @DevC it still exists) have put them in. If the black community STILL believe it is important to loudly protest at this time even with this in mind, then as anti-racist allies I am not sure anyone is in a place to tell them they shouldn't.
As a sidenote , though I am sure it isn't, I sincerely hope your post isn't an "All Lives Matter" segue as that is a whole other kind of ignorance if so.
@glasshalfempty said:
I wonder whether @Mr67 might like to discuss this personally with Adebayo Akinfenwa, Darius Charles and others.
I hardly think at a time of protests about destigmatising race, suggesting that a poster should be scared of having a conversation with a couple of muscular black players is particularly apposite?
For what it's worth, I went to a BLM protest in Oxford last week and while there were some 1,500 or so people gathered, everyone was respecting social distancing, virtually everyone wore a mask and at no point did it feel like anyone was risking their own or anyone else's health, particularly compared to the scenes of people crowded onto beaches last weekend.
@glasshalffull said:
Guilty as charged but it’s very different telling someone to f..k off in print and shouting the odd abusive word in the direction of a referee who can’t hear you anyway.
Is it that different?
I’ll leave you to decide but let’s just say that although it doesn’t make it right, I don’t know of any football fan who can say they’ve never shouted abuse at a referee and that includes some referees I know. If you can hold your hand up and say that you have never done likewise, I salute you.
@glasshalfempty said:
I wonder whether @Mr67 might like to discuss this personally with Adebayo Akinfenwa, Darius Charles and others.
I hardly think at a time of protests about destigmatising race, suggesting that a poster should be scared of having a conversation with a couple of muscular black players is particularly apposite?
I don’t think he was suggesting any physicality at all.
For the record Brownie I have never said that racism in the UK does not exist. It does. What I did say is that compared to many, probably most, other countries in the world, we have moved further to eliminate it and that here arguably other "isms" are more prevalent but attract less opprobrium.
@DevC said:
For the record Brownie I have never said that racism in the UK does not exist. It does. What I did say is that compared to many, probably most, other countries in the world, we have moved further to eliminate it and that here arguably other "isms" are more prevalent but attract less opprobrium.
Then I stand corrected Dev. All the same, I'm not sure that whether we are "better" than other countries or not negates the need for collective action.
Brownie... I understand your argument and respect it. I only suggested an option of having a protest at a time its safer for everyone to get involved and you replied with one basically mocking it.
I replied forget everyone else then as I felt it was coming across as no matter the risks of all the people in this country we must protest no matter what.
For what it's worth I'd like to see the protests stop for now. Get the county back on its feet and then when the time is right organise mass protests around the country were people of all races can attend in a safe and friendly environment. People are acting on emotions now and when its like that things can quite easily spill over as they are being reported.
@ryan_w_kirkby said:
Brownie... I understand your argument and respect it. I only suggested an option of having a protest at a time its safer for everyone to get involved and you replied with one basically mocking it.
I replied forget everyone else then as I felt it was coming across as no matter the risks of all the people in this country we must protest no matter what.
For what it's worth I'd like to see the protests stop for now. Get the county back on its feet and then when the time is right organise mass protests around the country were people of all races can attend in a safe and friendly environment. People are acting on emotions now and when its like that things can quite easily spill over as they are being reported.
Then I stand corrected Dev. All the same, I'm not sure that whether we are "better" than other countries or not negates the need for collective action.
I agree. We should strive to root out all evils in our society.
We all have our bugbears and one of mine is that we seem to seem to spend so much effort worrying about what is happening in America, we don't spend enough time worrying about ourselves. We seem to give no attention whatsoever to what is happening in the rest of the world.
At the moment, while racism remains, and probably always will sadly, an issue in our country, some of the other "isms" probably deserve even more attention
@ryan_w_kirkby said:
Brownie... I understand your argument and respect it. I only suggested an option of having a protest at a time its safer for everyone to get involved and you replied with one basically mocking it.
I replied forget everyone else then as I felt it was coming across as no matter the risks of all the people in this country we must protest no matter what.
For what it's worth I'd like to see the protests stop for now. Get the county back on its feet and then when the time is right organise mass protests around the country were people of all races can attend in a safe and friendly environment. People are acting on emotions now and when its like that things can quite easily spill over as they are being reported.
Appreciated explanation! Apologies for the mocking tone, it certainly wasn't directed specifically towards yourself.
@glasshalfempty said:
I wonder whether @Mr67 might like to discuss this personally with Adebayo Akinfenwa, Darius Charles and others.
I hardly think at a time of protests about destigmatising race, suggesting that a poster should be scared of having a conversation with a couple of muscular black players is particularly apposite?
I don’t think he was suggesting any physicality at all.
Blimey, 3 thumbs down for suggestIng there isn’t an automatic link between our black players talking and presenting a threat to be scared of.
I genuinely thought the other thread on this was a high water mark for Gasroom debate.
Yes, Black Lives Matter. All Lives Matter. It is for this reason I find mass protests at this time hold a rather horribly sick irony. Risking catching and spreading Covid 19 among the protesters and then the wider community seems to an odd away of showing regard for your own life and that of others. And yes, I would happily discuss the subject with anyone in a civilised manner.
Did I condone the actions of Cummings or the people who have flocked to the beach at this time? Absolutely not.
As for the response of a moderator. What is left to moderate?
The "All Lives Matter" counter-argument to the BLM movement is a highly ignorant riposte. I hope it isn't that which you are referring to @bluenotes and is just a comment related to your following points about Covid 19.
And sorry by the way. My two previous posts were an example of my warped sense of humour and not meant to be taken seriously or literally.
In amongst the use of offensive language and personal points scoring (of which I plead guilty) there has been some interesting views raised. Clearly I am on the side of people who believe that this is the right time to protest, but this actually links to a debate (it may have been on Andrew Marr this morning) about how scared we should all be at the moment.
There does seem to be something of a split between people who believe that the worst of this is over and we are basically free to go about our normal business as best we can, albeit with a little bit of social distancing and perhaps wearing a mask and those who are basically scared that it is far too early to even think about such things.
In a country of approaching 70 million people, the general viewpoint seems to be that there are around about 5000 to 8000 people newly infected every week, which presumably means, if my maths is correct, that around 0.01% of the population are likely to be in the state where they can transmit the virus, so the chances of even coming into contact with someone infected in the general community is slim to put it mildly (albeit increased in mass gatherings).
If you are then under 60 and in good health, the odds of being seriously affected by the virus are (give or take) about 0.1%.
Here my maths fails me, but basically for the vast majority of people under 60 the odds are very much in their favour.
I'm not saying that people should just go out and do what they want, but just trying to demonstrate that in any risk assessment of what to do, if you take "civic duty" (and such jargon issued by people most people no longer trust) out of it, people may conclude that the odd excursion in a less than perfect socially distanced setting is worth the risk.
Equally there are many, for whom general responsibility and social responsibility, perhaps coupled with fear of a second wave, means that they would not countenance such behaviour.
I don't actually believe either of this viewpoints is particularly wrong
@Brownie. I try to treat everyone with equal regard (at least until an individual deserves otherwise). If that amounts to ignorance, I'll live with that.
@bluenotes said: @Brownie. I try to treat everyone with equal regard (at least until an individual deserves otherwise). If that amounts to ignorance, I'll live with that.
Your sentiment is right, agreeable and well-founded I'm sure, but on a wider scale isn't what is needed right now.
Black Lives Matter doesn't suggest that BAME citizens deserve more regard than fellow citizens of different backgrounds, but that society for decades has treated them as inferior. All lives do matter, but right now the daily racialised aggressions that BAME people face are being magnified for all to see, and responding with "All Lives Matter" just undermines the entire movement. It's like one house being on fire, whilst the house across the road stands tall. You wouldn't respond by hosing down both houses, you'd do all you can to save and protect the one under fire.
I appreciate that I have clearly wound up many in here with the amount of negative votes these posts are getting, but I don't think we can underplay the importance of minorities struggling for racial equality at a time when society is wired against them, and everyone should feel empowered to protest the status quo.
Who ever said this was a place for just football eh?
Comments
No. People know the risks. And despite knowing the risks they still believe it is more important to protest at this moment in time. Just think about that for a moment. People are knowingly putting themselves, their family and their community at risk because they judge that NOW is the best time to make their voices heard and in the hope that changes will be made to make the lives of future generations of black people better.
We should be understanding and supportive of them.
And whilst I’m on a rant, the Prime Minister made a similar risk assessment in deciding not to censure Dominic Cummings, thereby encouraging millions to ignore or deliberately disobey the guidelines/rules of whatever. I know which of these I consider the more honourable.
I’m perfectly happy with how I phrased my response.
The current protests are about racism in this country, as well as what we’ve seen in other places.
I think its perfectly reasonable to say that post Cummings the disease will spread because people wont adhere to the rules. Yesterday and today legitimate grievances are being expressed in a way which does concern and which will make it harder going forward to for the police to disperse social gathering and protests by those with much less validity ( cast your mind back to the conspiracy loons in Hyde park in recent weeks) Does saying this really make me somebody who doesn't think Black Lives Matter. That seems a little binary.
Sorry mate, I usually enjoy your posts on here but this is an appalling take.
BAME people are statistically more likely to die of Covid-19, mainly due to socio-economic situations which systemic racism within the UK (yes @DevC it still exists) have put them in. If the black community STILL believe it is important to loudly protest at this time even with this in mind, then as anti-racist allies I am not sure anyone is in a place to tell them they shouldn't.
Would urge anyone to read this article on the Covid-19 risks coming from systemic UK racism. https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2020/06/we-cant-breathe
As a sidenote , though I am sure it isn't, I sincerely hope your post isn't an "All Lives Matter" segue as that is a whole other kind of ignorance if so.
I hardly think at a time of protests about destigmatising race, suggesting that a poster should be scared of having a conversation with a couple of muscular black players is particularly apposite?
For what it's worth, I went to a BLM protest in Oxford last week and while there were some 1,500 or so people gathered, everyone was respecting social distancing, virtually everyone wore a mask and at no point did it feel like anyone was risking their own or anyone else's health, particularly compared to the scenes of people crowded onto beaches last weekend.
More pertinently, players who were at the protest in question.
I’ll leave you to decide but let’s just say that although it doesn’t make it right, I don’t know of any football fan who can say they’ve never shouted abuse at a referee and that includes some referees I know. If you can hold your hand up and say that you have never done likewise, I salute you.
I don’t think he was suggesting any physicality at all.
For the record Brownie I have never said that racism in the UK does not exist. It does. What I did say is that compared to many, probably most, other countries in the world, we have moved further to eliminate it and that here arguably other "isms" are more prevalent but attract less opprobrium.
@MindlessDrugHoover - a helpful post thank you.
Then I stand corrected Dev. All the same, I'm not sure that whether we are "better" than other countries or not negates the need for collective action.
Brownie... I understand your argument and respect it. I only suggested an option of having a protest at a time its safer for everyone to get involved and you replied with one basically mocking it.
I replied forget everyone else then as I felt it was coming across as no matter the risks of all the people in this country we must protest no matter what.
For what it's worth I'd like to see the protests stop for now. Get the county back on its feet and then when the time is right organise mass protests around the country were people of all races can attend in a safe and friendly environment. People are acting on emotions now and when its like that things can quite easily spill over as they are being reported.
The explanation is appreciated @ryan_w_kirkby
I agree. We should strive to root out all evils in our society.
We all have our bugbears and one of mine is that we seem to seem to spend so much effort worrying about what is happening in America, we don't spend enough time worrying about ourselves. We seem to give no attention whatsoever to what is happening in the rest of the world.
At the moment, while racism remains, and probably always will sadly, an issue in our country, some of the other "isms" probably deserve even more attention
Appreciated explanation! Apologies for the mocking tone, it certainly wasn't directed specifically towards yourself.
@DevC . The Adrian Durham of the Gasroom.
@Chris 's utterances now have a very Dominic Cummings feel about them
Fuck off
That by the way was a nuanced ‘fuck off’ for anyone who cares
The level of intellectual debate has certainly improved on here in the absence of football.
Knowing your sensible approach we can take that as being serious.
Just comedy timing coming straight after three of the more ridiclous posts on the thread LOL
Oi, Malone. Why aren’t you using swear words? It’s the new normal.
Blimey, 3 thumbs down for suggestIng there isn’t an automatic link between our black players talking and presenting a threat to be scared of.
I genuinely thought the other thread on this was a high water mark for Gasroom debate.
Yes, Black Lives Matter. All Lives Matter. It is for this reason I find mass protests at this time hold a rather horribly sick irony. Risking catching and spreading Covid 19 among the protesters and then the wider community seems to an odd away of showing regard for your own life and that of others. And yes, I would happily discuss the subject with anyone in a civilised manner.
Did I condone the actions of Cummings or the people who have flocked to the beach at this time? Absolutely not.
As for the response of a moderator. What is left to moderate?
The "All Lives Matter" counter-argument to the BLM movement is a highly ignorant riposte. I hope it isn't that which you are referring to @bluenotes and is just a comment related to your following points about Covid 19.
And sorry by the way. My two previous posts were an example of my warped sense of humour and not meant to be taken seriously or literally.
In amongst the use of offensive language and personal points scoring (of which I plead guilty) there has been some interesting views raised. Clearly I am on the side of people who believe that this is the right time to protest, but this actually links to a debate (it may have been on Andrew Marr this morning) about how scared we should all be at the moment.
There does seem to be something of a split between people who believe that the worst of this is over and we are basically free to go about our normal business as best we can, albeit with a little bit of social distancing and perhaps wearing a mask and those who are basically scared that it is far too early to even think about such things.
In a country of approaching 70 million people, the general viewpoint seems to be that there are around about 5000 to 8000 people newly infected every week, which presumably means, if my maths is correct, that around 0.01% of the population are likely to be in the state where they can transmit the virus, so the chances of even coming into contact with someone infected in the general community is slim to put it mildly (albeit increased in mass gatherings).
If you are then under 60 and in good health, the odds of being seriously affected by the virus are (give or take) about 0.1%.
Here my maths fails me, but basically for the vast majority of people under 60 the odds are very much in their favour.
I'm not saying that people should just go out and do what they want, but just trying to demonstrate that in any risk assessment of what to do, if you take "civic duty" (and such jargon issued by people most people no longer trust) out of it, people may conclude that the odd excursion in a less than perfect socially distanced setting is worth the risk.
Equally there are many, for whom general responsibility and social responsibility, perhaps coupled with fear of a second wave, means that they would not countenance such behaviour.
I don't actually believe either of this viewpoints is particularly wrong
@Brownie. I try to treat everyone with equal regard (at least until an individual deserves otherwise). If that amounts to ignorance, I'll live with that.
Your sentiment is right, agreeable and well-founded I'm sure, but on a wider scale isn't what is needed right now.
Black Lives Matter doesn't suggest that BAME citizens deserve more regard than fellow citizens of different backgrounds, but that society for decades has treated them as inferior. All lives do matter, but right now the daily racialised aggressions that BAME people face are being magnified for all to see, and responding with "All Lives Matter" just undermines the entire movement. It's like one house being on fire, whilst the house across the road stands tall. You wouldn't respond by hosing down both houses, you'd do all you can to save and protect the one under fire.
I appreciate that I have clearly wound up many in here with the amount of negative votes these posts are getting, but I don't think we can underplay the importance of minorities struggling for racial equality at a time when society is wired against them, and everyone should feel empowered to protest the status quo.
Who ever said this was a place for just football eh?
Can't wait for Wednesday. ?