@Bluenotes, while all lives obviously matter, it's clearly not "all" people getting discriminated against.
Hence the movement of black lives matter as in many situations they are being treated as if they don't.
So while i understand your immediate reaction, it doesn't take too much thinking about and there really is nothing to fear or get upset over there.
@Brownie. I'm sorry if you feel that saying all lives matter in some way undermines the BLM movement. I most certainly did not intend it in that way. I do, however, feel that mass gatherings at this time undermine efforts to defeat a dreadful disease that is killing hundreds of people each day in this Country alone, and who knows how many throughout the world. It is in those terms that I use the phrase All Lives Matter.
I do not in any way belittle the BLM movement and what it stands for, or condone the actions that led to the current protests.
Don't worry @bluenotes I understand where you come from and appreciate both the clarification and your opinion! The "All Lives Matter" term is loaded and has been used by people in discrediting the BLM movement so it's a tricky one - but I do understand your use in this context.
@bluenotes said: @Brownie. I try to treat everyone with equal regard (at least until an individual deserves otherwise). If that amounts to ignorance, I'll live with that.
Your sentiment is right, agreeable and well-founded I'm sure, but on a wider scale isn't what is needed right now.
Black Lives Matter doesn't suggest that BAME citizens deserve more regard than fellow citizens of different backgrounds, but that society for decades has treated them as inferior. All lives do matter, but right now the daily racialised aggressions that BAME people face are being magnified for all to see, and responding with "All Lives Matter" just undermines the entire movement. It's like one house being on fire, whilst the house across the road stands tall. You wouldn't respond by hosing down both houses, you'd do all you can to save and protect the one under fire.
I appreciate that I have clearly wound up many in here with the amount of negative votes these posts are getting, but I don't think we can underplay the importance of minorities struggling for racial equality at a time when society is wired against them, and everyone should feel empowered to protest the status quo.
Who ever said this was a place for just football eh?
@Brownie For what it’s worth, I think you have made your points very well and I am in close agreement with you. I work in the NHS with many BAME colleagues. I am a white, grammar school and university educated male. It has taken me many years for the scales to begin to fall from my eyes and to have a tentative understanding of racism, not just in it’s overt forms but in it’s systemic and institutional forms in the organisation I am a part of and how this impacts on my colleagues every day of their working and personal lives. I have never had a service user refuse to be treated by me because of the colour of my skin or because of how I dress. In almost every case when someone reads my name they know how to pronounce it. When stopped by a traffic officer (I was tired and pulled out in front of him) in the ‘hot hatch’ I drive, I was let off with a stern warning. At no point did I fear that I would be treated unfairly (and no I am not saying individual Police are racist but the system they and we work in is) or harmed. I am guaranteed a day off on the celebratory days that me and my family want to spend together (Christmas day for example). These are just a few examples of how I can lead my life in ways that many people cannot, due to ethnicity, religion, sexuality, gender, class and so on.
A powerful and thought provoking exercise on privilege (not just white) can be found in the first link in this document, helpfully shared by a BAME colleague.
As for demonstrating during lockdown, I haven’t but I am very very torn that I haven’t and I stand by our players and my colleagues and friends who have.
Just to re confirm I totally agree with the cause but totally disagree with mass protests at this time. The people who attended these made a choice weighing up the risk of catching /spreading Covid 19 against the right to protest over this very worthy cause. Unfortunately the people they will come into contact with won't have that choice.For the record I think Dominic Cummings was wrong and people should not go to crowded beaches. Perhaps we should have a travel radius restriction as in Wales When you get an England player saying Racism is the only virus around that is worrying. Just as we are finally maybe getting on top of the virus people do this. As ever I welcome the intelligent counter arguments to my views. The abusive replies speak volumes about the posters
People getting squeamish because a forum moderator used the F word while our government is killing thousands through incompetence and millions of people are risking their own lives to stand up for what's right is peak Gasroom.
@Mr67 said:
How? Quite simple. All you do is call the crowd a protest and you can do what you want regardless of wether you are spreading the virus and ending not only black lives but thousands of other lives after your day out. The phase "I can't breathe " is one that those poor souls the protesters give Covid 19 to will become familiar. Totally selfish. It's right to mass protest against racism but totally the wrong time.
To start with, the title is misleading and not reflective of the content of the post.
You then flippantly draw a comparison between a leisure activity and protests about peoples’ lives -that they deem so important that they attend despite being well aware of the covid risks. You compound this by calling the protests a ‘day out’.
You mockingly use the phrase ‘I can’t breathe’, which have been the words uttered by multiple black people as they were in the process of being murdered by the police. We have seen the most recent example in a graphic and upsetting video as George Floyd was callously, casually and pointlessly killed.
Given that you are a total supporter of black lives matter, perhaps you could have said:
It is very unfortunate that the murder of George Floyd happened during the pandemic. I understand protestors deep anger and frustration at the continued racism in the UK and the wider world.
I’m sure protestors will have thought long and hard about the risks of increasing the spread of coronavirus, especially given its disproportionate effects on BAME people. However, I don’t think the benefits of protesting at this moment in time are worth the additional infections that are likely to happen. I’m all for the protests restarting once we have the virus more under control.
I would have disagreed with your conclusion, but it would have been a constructive post.
@Mr67 said:
Presumably by constructive you mean a post you agree with ? People will have different opinions get over it.
@drcongo said:
People getting squeamish because a forum moderator used the F word while our government is killing thousands through incompetence and millions of people are risking their own lives to stand up for what's right is peak Gasroom.
I thought you’d been unusually quiet on this topic and as usual, your comments are completely over the top. Is there justification for someone who’s presumably one of the guardians of free speech on this forum to tell a poster to F off. It’s not the F word that bothers me, it’s the refusal to communicate in a civilised manner with someone whose views you disagree with. I take it that you do realise people are entitled to an opinion that differs with yours?
@Mr67 said:
Presumably by constructive you mean a post you agree with ? People will have different opinions get over it.
@drcongo said:
People getting squeamish because a forum moderator used the F word while our government is killing thousands through incompetence and millions of people are risking their own lives to stand up for what's right is peak Gasroom.
I thought you’d been unusually quiet on this topic and as usual, your comments are completely over the top. Is there justification for someone who’s presumably one of the guardians of free speech on this forum to tell a poster to F off. It’s not the F word that bothers me, it’s the refusal to communicate in a civilised manner with someone whose views you disagree with. I take it that you do realise people are entitled to an opinion that differs with yours?
Hi Alan. I've been busy the last week or so, hence my lack of comment on any of this on a football forum.
I take it that you do realise people are entitled to an opinion that differs with yours?
Of course. I have never banned anyone for having an opinion. I take it that you do realise people are also entitled to tell someone to fuck off.
Several people have already pointed out that it's not the opinion that they objected to in the original post, it's the manner it was expressed in. Which, weirdly, seems to be exactly what you're objecting to about Chris' reply.
Why are you bothered about the manner that Chris expressed his opinion, and not bothered about the manner that the Mr67 expressed his opinion that people risking their lives to stand up for the lives of others were having a day out?
Edit: I take it that you do realise people are entitled to an opinion that differs with yours?
@Mr67 said:
Presumably by constructive you mean a post you agree with ? People will have different opinions get over it.
@drcongo said:
People getting squeamish because a forum moderator used the F word while our government is killing thousands through incompetence and millions of people are risking their own lives to stand up for what's right is peak Gasroom.
I thought you’d been unusually quiet on this topic and as usual, your comments are completely over the top. Is there justification for someone who’s presumably one of the guardians of free speech on this forum to tell a poster to F off. It’s not the F word that bothers me, it’s the refusal to communicate in a civilised manner with someone whose views you disagree with. I take it that you do realise people are entitled to an opinion that differs with yours?
Read the post above this
Ha, if course it no longer is the post directly above but Chris has set out a full well worded answer, His original reply may have been a bit rude and flippant but there are posts that deserve a long measured response and those that are wind up merchant or opposing fans rubbish that perhaps don't such as when a Plymouth fan doubts Ainswortths parental line or DevC asks for 1000 point counter answers to questions that have no relationship to the original post that he has already lost the argument in.
I'm not suggesting that swearing helps particularly or becomes the norm but I think it's also fair to ask why an F word is so horrendous to provoke a response from some people but mocking serious causes isn't.
At no stage have I said that I agree with the views expressed by the original poster, for the record I don’t.
However, I still think he deserved a more civilised response and I’m pleased that Chris has finally provided one. I’ve met with plenty of hostility on here myself for expressing sincerely held opinions and I much prefer it when people argue their case without resorting to insults and bad language. There’s enough evil in the world at the moment without getting at each other’s throats on what’s supposed to be a football forum.
There's clearly valid arguments to protest and to not protest with the current corona crisis, but it's quite clear that the original poster is trying to take a snarky dig, not a serious point about a serious issue.
Personally, I'll be treating Mr67 as the snarky racist, or at best ignoramus, he's shown himself to be from now on
@drcongo said:
People getting squeamish because a forum moderator used the F word while our government is killing thousands through incompetence and millions of people are risking their own lives to stand up for what's right is peak Gasroom.
Two points.
I am angry about all three of those topics.
Those involved in the protest are not just risking their own lives but those of their loved ones, neighbours and anyone else they come close to in the next few days.
Yes my original post was meant to br attention grabbing My concern was and still is that lives are being put at risk by these mass protests. I was horrified by seeing so many people mix so closely together and then no,doubt a significant proportion will come into close contact with other people either on their journey home and/or in their lives in the next few weeks. Those people will have no choice in coming into contact with the protesters They don't have the opportunity to weigh up the risk of infection versus the cause of racism as the protesters have made that decision on their behalf. The protesters who walked home and self isolate for a fortnight will be in a minority. Concerns are already being made over wether these demonstrations will raise the infection rate with all the potential health and economic consequences that a second wave will bring. Remember Cheltenham,Anfield and Crufts in March
@Mr67 I think you are rising to the distraction and are focusing on justifying your post rather than the rude and abusive response from a forum moderator.
Interesting I am now labelled as a possible racist by a poster above on nil evidence. Anyone who knows me and my family would find that quite funny. Stay safe all and let's hope we have some football to talk about soon.
@Mr67 said:
Interesting I am now labelled as a possible racist by a poster above on nil evidence. Anyone who knows me and my family would find that quite funny. Stay safe all and let's hope we have some football to talk about soon.
Strange way of showing it, and no evidence apart from your own posts.
I'm sure you and your family all truly believe you don't have a problem... That is the problem
@glasshalffull said:
Good to see that my appeal for civilised debate has gone down well with certain posters.
The gasroom and it's posters showed that it can have a reasoned debate on the subject in the other thread, this thread and poster will get treated with the contempt they deserve.
@Mr67 said:
Interesting I am now labelled as a possible racist by a poster above on nil evidence. Anyone who knows me and my family would find that quite funny. Stay safe all and let's hope we have some football to talk about soon.
Strange way of showing it, and no evidence apart from your own posts.
I'm sure you and your family all truly believe you don't have a problem... That is the problem
I've seen quite a few social media posts from people accusing those not attending the protests as being racists. I've spoken to someone who went on the protest because 'to not to would have marked me out as a racist'.
There are loads of racists in the country and institutional racism is structural in plenty of organisations.
There are though loads who fear being called racist as they want to argue nuanced points about the issue. Shutting down that discussion doesn't help find a solution.
@Mr67 said:
Interesting I am now labelled as a possible racist by a poster above on nil evidence. Anyone who knows me and my family would find that quite funny. Stay safe all and let's hope we have some football to talk about soon.
Strange way of showing it, and no evidence apart from your own posts.
I'm sure you and your family all truly believe you don't have a problem... That is the problem
I've seen quite a few social media posts from people accusing those not attending the protests as being racists. I've spoken to someone who went on the protest because 'to not to would have marked me out as a racist'.
There are loads of racists in the country and institutional racism is structural in plenty of organisations.
There are though loads who fear being called racist as they want to argue nuanced points about the issue. Shutting down that discussion doesn't help find a solution.
Yes that is a real issue in society, no this isn't an instance of that
I suppose if generations have had to put up with inequality and systematically had basic rights denied them based on the colour of their skin they may sense there is a once in a lifetime opportunity to affect change, which as unfortunate as the timing may be, can't be allowed to slip by.
Certainly puts Crufts into perspective anyway.
But it still looks like an uphill struggle when our home secretary gets more animated and upset by a statue of a slave trader being taken down than she has ever done about racism itself. This is what we are up against
Surely you’re not suggesting that the Home Secretary, Britain’s first BAME cabinet minister who was born to a Ugandan-Indian, isn’t concerned about racism?
Comments
@Bluenotes, while all lives obviously matter, it's clearly not "all" people getting discriminated against.
Hence the movement of black lives matter as in many situations they are being treated as if they don't.
So while i understand your immediate reaction, it doesn't take too much thinking about and there really is nothing to fear or get upset over there.
@Brownie. I'm sorry if you feel that saying all lives matter in some way undermines the BLM movement. I most certainly did not intend it in that way. I do, however, feel that mass gatherings at this time undermine efforts to defeat a dreadful disease that is killing hundreds of people each day in this Country alone, and who knows how many throughout the world. It is in those terms that I use the phrase All Lives Matter.
I do not in any way belittle the BLM movement and what it stands for, or condone the actions that led to the current protests.
Don't worry @bluenotes I understand where you come from and appreciate both the clarification and your opinion! The "All Lives Matter" term is loaded and has been used by people in discrediting the BLM movement so it's a tricky one - but I do understand your use in this context.
@Brownie. No problem. I was unaware that it had been used in that way. Thank you for enlightening me. I will avoid using the phrase in the future.
@Brownie For what it’s worth, I think you have made your points very well and I am in close agreement with you. I work in the NHS with many BAME colleagues. I am a white, grammar school and university educated male. It has taken me many years for the scales to begin to fall from my eyes and to have a tentative understanding of racism, not just in it’s overt forms but in it’s systemic and institutional forms in the organisation I am a part of and how this impacts on my colleagues every day of their working and personal lives. I have never had a service user refuse to be treated by me because of the colour of my skin or because of how I dress. In almost every case when someone reads my name they know how to pronounce it. When stopped by a traffic officer (I was tired and pulled out in front of him) in the ‘hot hatch’ I drive, I was let off with a stern warning. At no point did I fear that I would be treated unfairly (and no I am not saying individual Police are racist but the system they and we work in is) or harmed. I am guaranteed a day off on the celebratory days that me and my family want to spend together (Christmas day for example). These are just a few examples of how I can lead my life in ways that many people cannot, due to ethnicity, religion, sexuality, gender, class and so on.
A powerful and thought provoking exercise on privilege (not just white) can be found in the first link in this document, helpfully shared by a BAME colleague.
https://eur05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https://t.co/ncPIYpFDv9?ssr=true&data=02|01||2d2d4f733cdb40fa0e8008d8088cbcfc|84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa|1|0|637268747836313723&sdata=PjnOlu1qDsuTBTv3GC2vZ6/xv+Bbb8ovgR06Z8tVgLI=&reserved=0
As for demonstrating during lockdown, I haven’t but I am very very torn that I haven’t and I stand by our players and my colleagues and friends who have.
Just to re confirm I totally agree with the cause but totally disagree with mass protests at this time. The people who attended these made a choice weighing up the risk of catching /spreading Covid 19 against the right to protest over this very worthy cause. Unfortunately the people they will come into contact with won't have that choice.For the record I think Dominic Cummings was wrong and people should not go to crowded beaches. Perhaps we should have a travel radius restriction as in Wales When you get an England player saying Racism is the only virus around that is worrying. Just as we are finally maybe getting on top of the virus people do this. As ever I welcome the intelligent counter arguments to my views. The abusive replies speak volumes about the posters
If you want intelligent counter argument, make a constructive post.
Presumably by constructive you mean a post you agree with ? People will have different opinions get over it.
Not at all.
People getting squeamish because a forum moderator used the F word while our government is killing thousands through incompetence and millions of people are risking their own lives to stand up for what's right is peak Gasroom.
To start with, the title is misleading and not reflective of the content of the post.
You then flippantly draw a comparison between a leisure activity and protests about peoples’ lives -that they deem so important that they attend despite being well aware of the covid risks. You compound this by calling the protests a ‘day out’.
You mockingly use the phrase ‘I can’t breathe’, which have been the words uttered by multiple black people as they were in the process of being murdered by the police. We have seen the most recent example in a graphic and upsetting video as George Floyd was callously, casually and pointlessly killed.
Given that you are a total supporter of black lives matter, perhaps you could have said:
It is very unfortunate that the murder of George Floyd happened during the pandemic. I understand protestors deep anger and frustration at the continued racism in the UK and the wider world.
I’m sure protestors will have thought long and hard about the risks of increasing the spread of coronavirus, especially given its disproportionate effects on BAME people. However, I don’t think the benefits of protesting at this moment in time are worth the additional infections that are likely to happen. I’m all for the protests restarting once we have the virus more under control.
I would have disagreed with your conclusion, but it would have been a constructive post.
I thought you’d been unusually quiet on this topic and as usual, your comments are completely over the top. Is there justification for someone who’s presumably one of the guardians of free speech on this forum to tell a poster to F off. It’s not the F word that bothers me, it’s the refusal to communicate in a civilised manner with someone whose views you disagree with. I take it that you do realise people are entitled to an opinion that differs with yours?
It’s not about disagreement. And the justification is that their post deserved it.
Read the post above this
Hi Alan. I've been busy the last week or so, hence my lack of comment on any of this on a football forum.
Of course. I have never banned anyone for having an opinion. I take it that you do realise people are also entitled to tell someone to fuck off.
Several people have already pointed out that it's not the opinion that they objected to in the original post, it's the manner it was expressed in. Which, weirdly, seems to be exactly what you're objecting to about Chris' reply.
Why are you bothered about the manner that Chris expressed his opinion, and not bothered about the manner that the Mr67 expressed his opinion that people risking their lives to stand up for the lives of others were having a day out?
Edit: I take it that you do realise people are entitled to an opinion that differs with yours?
Ha, if course it no longer is the post directly above but Chris has set out a full well worded answer, His original reply may have been a bit rude and flippant but there are posts that deserve a long measured response and those that are wind up merchant or opposing fans rubbish that perhaps don't such as when a Plymouth fan doubts Ainswortths parental line or DevC asks for 1000 point counter answers to questions that have no relationship to the original post that he has already lost the argument in.
I'm not suggesting that swearing helps particularly or becomes the norm but I think it's also fair to ask why an F word is so horrendous to provoke a response from some people but mocking serious causes isn't.
At no stage have I said that I agree with the views expressed by the original poster, for the record I don’t.
However, I still think he deserved a more civilised response and I’m pleased that Chris has finally provided one. I’ve met with plenty of hostility on here myself for expressing sincerely held opinions and I much prefer it when people argue their case without resorting to insults and bad language. There’s enough evil in the world at the moment without getting at each other’s throats on what’s supposed to be a football forum.
There's clearly valid arguments to protest and to not protest with the current corona crisis, but it's quite clear that the original poster is trying to take a snarky dig, not a serious point about a serious issue.
Personally, I'll be treating Mr67 as the snarky racist, or at best ignoramus, he's shown himself to be from now on
Two points.
I am angry about all three of those topics.
Those involved in the protest are not just risking their own lives but those of their loved ones, neighbours and anyone else they come close to in the next few days.
Yes my original post was meant to br attention grabbing My concern was and still is that lives are being put at risk by these mass protests. I was horrified by seeing so many people mix so closely together and then no,doubt a significant proportion will come into close contact with other people either on their journey home and/or in their lives in the next few weeks. Those people will have no choice in coming into contact with the protesters They don't have the opportunity to weigh up the risk of infection versus the cause of racism as the protesters have made that decision on their behalf. The protesters who walked home and self isolate for a fortnight will be in a minority. Concerns are already being made over wether these demonstrations will raise the infection rate with all the potential health and economic consequences that a second wave will bring. Remember Cheltenham,Anfield and Crufts in March
@Mr67 I think you are rising to the distraction and are focusing on justifying your post rather than the rude and abusive response from a forum moderator.
It's quite easy to avoid getting abuse from a forum moderator, just don't be a race baiting piece of shit? Simple
Interesting I am now labelled as a possible racist by a poster above on nil evidence. Anyone who knows me and my family would find that quite funny. Stay safe all and let's hope we have some football to talk about soon.
Strange way of showing it, and no evidence apart from your own posts.
I'm sure you and your family all truly believe you don't have a problem... That is the problem
Good to see that my appeal for civilised debate has gone down well with certain posters.
The gasroom and it's posters showed that it can have a reasoned debate on the subject in the other thread, this thread and poster will get treated with the contempt they deserve.
Respect is earned not given
I've seen quite a few social media posts from people accusing those not attending the protests as being racists. I've spoken to someone who went on the protest because 'to not to would have marked me out as a racist'.
There are loads of racists in the country and institutional racism is structural in plenty of organisations.
There are though loads who fear being called racist as they want to argue nuanced points about the issue. Shutting down that discussion doesn't help find a solution.
Yes that is a real issue in society, no this isn't an instance of that
I suppose if generations have had to put up with inequality and systematically had basic rights denied them based on the colour of their skin they may sense there is a once in a lifetime opportunity to affect change, which as unfortunate as the timing may be, can't be allowed to slip by.
Certainly puts Crufts into perspective anyway.
But it still looks like an uphill struggle when our home secretary gets more animated and upset by a statue of a slave trader being taken down than she has ever done about racism itself. This is what we are up against
Surely you’re not suggesting that the Home Secretary, Britain’s first BAME cabinet minister who was born to a Ugandan-Indian, isn’t concerned about racism?