@DevC said:
Yes Eric. But just as bad things - worse in fact - happen daily across the world. Humanity is a horrid species. Much as we would like to, we cant influence those problems. Rather than this weird obsession with the USA, lets first worry about and fix those problems we have here and in our neighbours in Europe.
So because there are other terrible things happen, when one movement for good suddenly gets a huge amount of traction due to the brazen murder of an innocent man, we should ignore it and sweep it under the rug rather than push to improve at least one of the worlds problems?
@DevC said:
Yes Eric. But just as bad things - worse in fact - happen daily across the world. Humanity is a horrid species. Much as we would like to, we cant influence those problems. Rather than this weird obsession with the USA, lets first worry about and fix those problems we have here and in our neighbours in Europe.
"Let's turn a blind eye to racist murders committed by the police of a newly fascist state because we have our own problems right now."
What should the protestors do when confronted by lunatics like this? And then he's allowed a platform to share his bigoted lies with no cross-checking of the truth?
This isn't an isolated incident either, Trump even tweeted out another example of a similar incident to demonize the protesters when it was found that he was a machete wielding vigilante not a man protecting his shop.
Reports of police hiding their uniforms sabotaging peaceful protests to make them look violent
If you're in a position where you've seen someone that could easily be you, or a friend or family be killed in cold blood by the people who are meant to protect you, and then rather than address these problems, the president brings in the military, and encourages his supporters to defend their property and 2nd amendment rights, then where do you turn when your peaceful protests have been dismissed for years and the latest one was demonized as offensive by the president.
Across the world, particularly in Africa and the Middle East women today are being raped and killed as an act of war. Children in their hundreds perhaps thousands are starving to death in Yemen - those that have not already been blown up often by UK made weapons. Etc etc. We don't expect a third division English football club to make a statement about those. We have an unhealthy obsession with what happens in America - almost as if it is our country. Its not thank goodness.
We have loads of problems here too - the primary driver of life success in this country remains who your dad is. We have no idea how to afford the medical costs of an ageing population. We treat people in desperate need of asylum as if they are invaders rather than fellow humans in need of a helping hand. Too many people sleep on our streets with no hope. Lets concentrate on solving our problems rather than virtue signalling about events in another country about which we have no influence.
Wow. Nice one @Username. That’s generated some interesting (and generally respectful) debate. As a card-carrying bleeding heart liberal I abhor violence in all forms, but... I am a privileged middle class white male (albeit with BAME wife and children) and have never been treated by members of my own species with the callousness and disrespect shown (in this particular case) to blacks in the USA.
If I had I cannot hand on heart say I wouldn’t respond in the way some have. Not being listened to as an individual devalues you as an individual. Not being listened to as a community magnifies that and I think I may do what I felt I needed to do to get my voice heard.
Will it change things? I sincerely hope so but (sorry @Shev) the USA seems so dysfunctional at the moment (not that we can really talk) it’s hard to see this ending well.
Is it the responsibility of a football club thousands of miles away to explicitly make a statement of support? I don’t know. As someone mentioned where would you stop? If we did (as Leyton Orient have for example) I would be proud that we had but not doing so it doesn’t feel we are particularly devaluing the cause. As someone else said though, we have a responsibility to support any of our players who do make a stand.
I don’t agree that the end always justifies the means, even for an obviously worthy cause like this. If you approve violence as a way of highlighting an issue you are heading in a very dangerous direction.
What would you suggest these protestors do @glasshalffull? Give up and go home because some have taken advantage and broken the law?
Surely we bring those looting to justice and protect everyone else’s right to protest.
I totally agree with your last sentence but Chris seemed to be advocating violent protests as a means of getting their cause recognised and I don’t agree with that.
Remember what the silly old London mayor did to address the issues after the london riots? Bought water cannons to keep the scum away from Westminster. That's your silly old pm now. Right wingers first instinct is always to get the cosh out when the oiks get antsy then to complain when things kick off.
@Shev said:
MLK was extremely wise in his use of non-violent protests, as he realized that violence and peace are actual opposites, and counteract one another. If you use a flamethrower to put out a fire, you just make the fire larger.
I don’t agree that the end always justifies the means, even for an obviously worthy cause like this. If you approve violence as a way of highlighting an issue you are heading in a very dangerous direction.
Colin Kapernick led a peaceful protest against institutional racism in America. How did that go down?
Kapernick protest was pretty effective, Eric. It’s made him a relatively well known name in a country three thousand miles away despite him playing a sport hardly ever played over here.
To be honest he is the one American footballer I could name - although I believe there was once some guy called the fridge.
@DevC said:
Kapernick protest was pretty effective, Eric. It’s made him a relatively well known name in a country three thousand miles away despite him playing a sport hardly ever played over here.
To be honest he is the one American footballer I could name - although I believe there was once some guy called the fridge.
@Shev said:
MLK was extremely wise in his use of non-violent protests, as he realized that violence and peace are actual opposites, and counteract one another. If you use a flamethrower to put out a fire, you just make the fire larger.
I don’t agree that the end always justifies the means, even for an obviously worthy cause like this. If you approve violence as a way of highlighting an issue you are heading in a very dangerous direction.
Colin Kapernick led a peaceful protest against institutional racism in America. How did that go down?
Surely you aren’t advocating anything other than peaceful protests, are you?
@DevC said:
Kapernick protest was pretty effective, Eric. It’s made him a relatively well known name in a country three thousand miles away despite him playing a sport hardly ever played over here.
To be honest he is the one American footballer I could name - although I believe there was once some guy called the fridge.
@Shev said:
MLK was extremely wise in his use of non-violent protests, as he realized that violence and peace are actual opposites, and counteract one another. If you use a flamethrower to put out a fire, you just make the fire larger.
I don’t agree that the end always justifies the means, even for an obviously worthy cause like this. If you approve violence as a way of highlighting an issue you are heading in a very dangerous direction.
Colin Kapernick led a peaceful protest against institutional racism in America. How did that go down?
Surely you aren’t advocating anything other than peaceful protests, are you?
I'm saying that if peaceful protests achieve fuck all and black people are still regularly being murdered by policemen then perhaps it's no surprise
Well I've read every post on this thread & nothing I've read has changed my personal opinion.
The club have a history of being stoic against racism, thankfully & actions speak louder than words. The club even giving out a simple tweet in support of the cause in question, will leave themselves open to criticism as it can't do right for doing wrong. Public opinion has many facets. We have a fantastic record for having players of all colours, many who have entertained me very well over the years. Again, WWFC has been very forthright in promoting the fight against racism and personally I don't see that they should be involved. If they do, then people will be screaming from the rooftops when they don't opine on the next crusade.
@EwanHoosaami said:
Well I've read every post on this thread & nothing I've read has changed my personal opinion.
The club have a history of being stoic against racism, thankfully & actions speak louder than words. The club even giving out a simple tweet in support of the cause in question, will leave themselves open to criticism as it can't do right for doing wrong. Public opinion has many facets. We have a fantastic record for having players of all colours, many who have entertained me very well over the years. Again, WWFC has been very forthright in promoting the fight against racism and personally I don't see that they should be involved. If they do, then people will be screaming from the rooftops when they don't opine on the next crusade.
What issues that are as clearly morally correct are as big as this that the club would be open to unjust pressure to promote?
I think the most important thing from the club is that they support the players who decide to speak out, which I'm sure they are, but to suggest they shouldn't speak out against institutional racism and murder for fear of "leaving themselves open to criticism" is mad to me, anyone finding a way to criticize the club for supporting a cause like this shouldn't be welcome at the club anyway, even if you don't endorse some small elements of it and wouldn't show support yourself, there's no excuse for criticising a community club if they did choose to support a just cause.
I don't expect Wycombe to show their support, I won't criticize them if they don't as I know the club is inherently against racism, but I would be pleased if they did say something
The club do say plenty, by actions rather than words.
The notion that by not supporting the issue publicly is somehow condoning the problem is not something I agree with.
An extreme example I know, but how often does a Royal family member publicly offer an opinion on anything political or racial?
@EwanHoosaami said:
The club do say plenty, by actions rather than words.
The notion that by not supporting the issue publicly is somehow condoning the problem is not something I agree with.
An extreme example I know, but how often does a Royal family member publicly offer an opinion on anything political or racial?
I’m not sure anyone is actually criticising the club @EwanHoosaami
Prince Phillip has offered his views a fair few times!
I don't expect Wycombe to show their support, I won't criticize them if they don't as I know the club is inherently against racism, but I would be pleased if they did say something.
I would not.mind if they made a statement but I too would not expect them to or criticise them if they don't. And this is from someone who only just found out quite late in life they were a by standing apologist for inaction on racism and sexism. ?
@Shev said:
MLK was extremely wise in his use of non-violent protests, as he realized that violence and peace are actual opposites, and counteract one another. If you use a flamethrower to put out a fire, you just make the fire larger.
I don’t agree that the end always justifies the means, even for an obviously worthy cause like this. If you approve violence as a way of highlighting an issue you are heading in a very dangerous direction.
Colin Kapernick led a peaceful protest against institutional racism in America. How did that go down?
Surely you aren’t advocating anything other than peaceful protests, are you?
Having seen even more videos of the inexcusable police behaviour, multiple examples caught on camera of attempted sabotaging and antagonising of peaceful protests and the president shooting rubber bullets at a peaceful protest so he can hold a bible in front of a church, in some places in America, violence is the only option left.
Trump is starting a race war rather than addressing race inequality
@Shev said:
MLK was extremely wise in his use of non-violent protests, as he realized that violence and peace are actual opposites, and counteract one another. If you use a flamethrower to put out a fire, you just make the fire larger.
I don’t agree that the end always justifies the means, even for an obviously worthy cause like this. If you approve violence as a way of highlighting an issue you are heading in a very dangerous direction.
Colin Kapernick led a peaceful protest against institutional racism in America. How did that go down?
Surely you aren’t advocating anything other than peaceful protests, are you?
Having seen even more videos of the inexcusable police behaviour, multiple examples caught on camera of attempted sabotaging and antagonising of peaceful protests and the president shooting rubber bullets at a peaceful protest so he can hold a bible in front of a church, in some places in America, violence is the only option left.
Trump is starting a race war rather than addressing race inequality
‘Violence is the only option left’. Is that really your solution? I don’t believe that the riots have been caused by genuine members of the black community. The peaceful protesters have been infiltrated by anarchists hellbent on causing trouble as happens all over the world including here in Britain.
Comments
So because there are other terrible things happen, when one movement for good suddenly gets a huge amount of traction due to the brazen murder of an innocent man, we should ignore it and sweep it under the rug rather than push to improve at least one of the worlds problems?
"Let's turn a blind eye to racist murders committed by the police of a newly fascist state because we have our own problems right now."
What should the protestors do when confronted by lunatics like this? And then he's allowed a platform to share his bigoted lies with no cross-checking of the truth?
This isn't an isolated incident either, Trump even tweeted out another example of a similar incident to demonize the protesters when it was found that he was a machete wielding vigilante not a man protecting his shop.
Reports of police hiding their uniforms sabotaging peaceful protests to make them look violent
If you're in a position where you've seen someone that could easily be you, or a friend or family be killed in cold blood by the people who are meant to protect you, and then rather than address these problems, the president brings in the military, and encourages his supporters to defend their property and 2nd amendment rights, then where do you turn when your peaceful protests have been dismissed for years and the latest one was demonized as offensive by the president.
Turns out black lives matter in Europe too.
Across the world, particularly in Africa and the Middle East women today are being raped and killed as an act of war. Children in their hundreds perhaps thousands are starving to death in Yemen - those that have not already been blown up often by UK made weapons. Etc etc. We don't expect a third division English football club to make a statement about those. We have an unhealthy obsession with what happens in America - almost as if it is our country. Its not thank goodness.
We have loads of problems here too - the primary driver of life success in this country remains who your dad is. We have no idea how to afford the medical costs of an ageing population. We treat people in desperate need of asylum as if they are invaders rather than fellow humans in need of a helping hand. Too many people sleep on our streets with no hope. Lets concentrate on solving our problems rather than virtue signalling about events in another country about which we have no influence.
Wow. Nice one @Username. That’s generated some interesting (and generally respectful) debate. As a card-carrying bleeding heart liberal I abhor violence in all forms, but... I am a privileged middle class white male (albeit with BAME wife and children) and have never been treated by members of my own species with the callousness and disrespect shown (in this particular case) to blacks in the USA.
If I had I cannot hand on heart say I wouldn’t respond in the way some have. Not being listened to as an individual devalues you as an individual. Not being listened to as a community magnifies that and I think I may do what I felt I needed to do to get my voice heard.
Will it change things? I sincerely hope so but (sorry @Shev) the USA seems so dysfunctional at the moment (not that we can really talk) it’s hard to see this ending well.
Is it the responsibility of a football club thousands of miles away to explicitly make a statement of support? I don’t know. As someone mentioned where would you stop? If we did (as Leyton Orient have for example) I would be proud that we had but not doing so it doesn’t feel we are particularly devaluing the cause. As someone else said though, we have a responsibility to support any of our players who do make a stand.
Taking action on one bad thing while other bad things happen is better than taking no action at all.
One thing that has surprised me on this thread.
@Shev not using his democratic right and honour to vote. So many people would love that right. Use it or end up with years of Trumps and Johnsons.
One thing that hasn't surprised me on this thread
@DevC taking a different view when there really is only one view to be taken. It was forever thus.
Let’s be clear, the vast majority of violence against people arising from these protests has been from one side.
Remember what the silly old London mayor did to address the issues after the london riots? Bought water cannons to keep the scum away from Westminster. That's your silly old pm now. Right wingers first instinct is always to get the cosh out when the oiks get antsy then to complain when things kick off.
Colin Kapernick led a peaceful protest against institutional racism in America. How did that go down?
As a slight aside, as far as I can see it is virtually impossible to use the phrase "virtue signalling" and not come across as a total prick
Kapernick protest was pretty effective, Eric. It’s made him a relatively well known name in a country three thousand miles away despite him playing a sport hardly ever played over here.
To be honest he is the one American footballer I could name - although I believe there was once some guy called the fridge.
At massive personal cost to his sporting career.
Yes I believe that is probably true, Lloyd.
Thanks Chairbo> @eric_plant said:
Surely you aren’t advocating anything other than peaceful protests, are you?
Jesus Christ.....
I'm saying that if peaceful protests achieve fuck all and black people are still regularly being murdered by policemen then perhaps it's no surprise
Well I've read every post on this thread & nothing I've read has changed my personal opinion.
The club have a history of being stoic against racism, thankfully & actions speak louder than words. The club even giving out a simple tweet in support of the cause in question, will leave themselves open to criticism as it can't do right for doing wrong. Public opinion has many facets. We have a fantastic record for having players of all colours, many who have entertained me very well over the years. Again, WWFC has been very forthright in promoting the fight against racism and personally I don't see that they should be involved. If they do, then people will be screaming from the rooftops when they don't opine on the next crusade.
What issues that are as clearly morally correct are as big as this that the club would be open to unjust pressure to promote?
I think the most important thing from the club is that they support the players who decide to speak out, which I'm sure they are, but to suggest they shouldn't speak out against institutional racism and murder for fear of "leaving themselves open to criticism" is mad to me, anyone finding a way to criticize the club for supporting a cause like this shouldn't be welcome at the club anyway, even if you don't endorse some small elements of it and wouldn't show support yourself, there's no excuse for criticising a community club if they did choose to support a just cause.
I don't expect Wycombe to show their support, I won't criticize them if they don't as I know the club is inherently against racism, but I would be pleased if they did say something
The club do say plenty, by actions rather than words.
The notion that by not supporting the issue publicly is somehow condoning the problem is not something I agree with.
An extreme example I know, but how often does a Royal family member publicly offer an opinion on anything political or racial?
I’m not sure anyone is actually criticising the club @EwanHoosaami
Prince Phillip has offered his views a fair few times!
LOL!!! True, but I think Prince Philip has "been caught out", rather than it being an "official statement".
I would not.mind if they made a statement but I too would not expect them to or criticise them if they don't. And this is from someone who only just found out quite late in life they were a by standing apologist for inaction on racism and sexism. ?
Having seen even more videos of the inexcusable police behaviour, multiple examples caught on camera of attempted sabotaging and antagonising of peaceful protests and the president shooting rubber bullets at a peaceful protest so he can hold a bible in front of a church, in some places in America, violence is the only option left.
Trump is starting a race war rather than addressing race inequality
‘Violence is the only option left’. Is that really your solution? I don’t believe that the riots have been caused by genuine members of the black community. The peaceful protesters have been infiltrated by anarchists hellbent on causing trouble as happens all over the world including here in Britain.
The vast majority of the violence has been committed by genuine members of the police community.