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Should the club show solidarity today with the black lives matter? (Yes)

Personally, I think it would be right for the club to make a statement supporting the anti racism campaign.

I know the management must have a million things going on right now, but this is such a huge cause, not saying anything is not a viable position if we really are a club who want to help the effort to eradicate racism

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Comments

  • As you say, the management have a million other things on at the minute. We have a big proportion of black players on the books to squad size. We are quite vocal with kick it out. The club have a great harmony within the squad. I really don't see what is to gain from being allied to a cause that has become political & violent, given our already stated stance on the topic?

  • edited June 2

    @EwanHoosaami said:
    As you say, the management have a million other things on at the minute. We have a big proportion of black players on the books to squad size. We are quite vocal with kick it out. The club have a great harmony within the squad. I really don't see what is to gain from being allied to a cause that has become political & violent, given our already stated stance on the topic?

    Because it's the right thing to do?

    Staying out of things because they are "political" is no reason at all, and the violence was started by the US state, who are now doubling down with more violence.

    Other clubs have come out in support, if we truly support it, so should we, even if it's a simple tweet

    Standing back and ignoring the issue is the same as endorsing it at this point, we should be on the right side of history

  • edited June 2

    What we're seeing in the States at the moment those of us under a certain age have never seen in our lives - I was watching live coverage last night and they made the point that these protests are of a scale and length not seen in even longer than that. You've got a president who's effectively just declared war on his people and is acting every bit like a dictator - if what he did last night (which was incredibly disturbing to watch live - ordering the police to violently disperse peaceful protestors, quite deliberately timed to coincide with his 'speech' about being "the president of law and order", in which he also emphasised protecting the Second Amendment) had happened in, say, the Middle East, there would be outrage, to put it very lightly. We have to use this moment in history as a catalyst and get much more proactive in effecting change.

  • Black Lives Matter was eclipsed to some extent by Me Too and there will be another movement along again in a minute. I know younglings think this is a pivotal moment...but as someone who has seen a lot of them, it probably isn't and certainly won't be in the States. Remember Watts Riots in the States? Post MLK killing riots? Kent State killings? Anti-Vietnam war protests in the US and Grosvenor Square? The Miners Strike? Some of us can remember the post-Rodney King trial riots, for example. What we do have is a President lacking any sort of empathy or diplomacy which is dangerous. I fully agree with what the protestors are protesting about, but it's not for British football clubs to start nailing their colours to the mast one way or the other in my opinion, because where do you draw the line? Just an opinion.

  • No one is asking the club to nail their colours to a political mast, I'm asking if they should support the current issue, which is the fight against institutional racism not just in america, worldwide.

    I'm confident wherever the line is, this falls way within the realms of acceptable as a cause to support

  • Protests die down precisely because of inaction and indifference. What's going on in america isnt going to go away as quietly as previous ones, it's already the biggest in decades (not just because of the incident itself, the mass unemployment due to cornonavirus and a overtly racist president intent on stoking the flames).

    Calling the protests violent as a reason to not support them is playing directly into the racist institutions hands, in reality, the majority of protests have been peaceful, and theres already been multiple examples of the media exaggerating or entirely making up violence, as well as wanton police violence, both in uniform, and in the form of sabotage of the protests by setting fires themselves to discredit the cause

    Anyway, I didnt particularly make the thread for a huge debate on the issue, I actually expected fairly unanimous support but guess I was wrong!

    Still hopeful of the club making a stand

  • Keep politics out of football.

  • @Wendoverman said:
    Black Lives Matter was eclipsed to some extent by Me Too and there will be another movement along again in a minute. I know younglings think this is a pivotal moment...but as someone who has seen a lot of them, it probably isn't and certainly won't be in the States. Remember Watts Riots in the States? Post MLK killing riots? Kent State killings? Anti-Vietnam war protests in the US and Grosvenor Square? The Miners Strike? Some of us can remember the post-Rodney King trial riots, for example. What we do have is a President lacking any sort of empathy or diplomacy which is dangerous. I fully agree with what the protestors are protesting about, but it's not for British football clubs to start nailing their colours to the mast one way or the other in my opinion, because where do you draw the line? Just an opinion.

    Change doesn’t happen overnight and it certainly won’t if people take this attitude.

    I understand that a football club can’t have a position on every public debate. But racism has been a major issue on the terraces (thankfully, mostly in the past), and under representation of minorities in the stands and the dugouts is still a problem.

    I don't think anyone is expecting the club to have a fully formed view on the specifics of the situation in the US. But a simple social media post at the moment would be a good way to illustrate the club's values.

    Also, you refer to β€˜Me Too’ like it was a fad. It had a massive impact on people’s attitudes, the way people behave in the workplace etc.

  • Not standing against such overt racism is more political than taking a stand.

    Calling racism "political " also misses the point

  • @ryan_w_kirkby said:
    Keep politics out of football.

    Politics run right through football.

  • Just to show how it can have an immediate effect by just showing support, West Brom managed to weed out one numpty...

  • As far as I'm concerned the Black Lives Matter movement is something that every human being should be invested in. People who don't have an opinion on these issues are a fundamental part of the problem - it's my privilege as a middle class white man that I have the option not to have an opinion if I wish to or to "keep politics out of it".

    I absolutely believe that the club - and in fact any representative body in sport, entertainment etc, who have a platform should have a public position on this. It's frankly a case of right vs wrong.

  • @ryan_w_kirkby said:
    Keep politics out of football.

    Racism isn’t political.

  • @Brownie said:
    As far as I'm concerned the Black Lives Matter movement is something that every human being should be invested in. People who don't have an opinion on these issues are a fundamental part of the problem - it's my privilege as a middle class white man that I have the option not to have an opinion if I wish to or to "keep politics out of it".

    I absolutely believe that the club - and in fact any representative body in sport, entertainment etc, who have a platform should have a public position on this. It's frankly a case of right vs wrong.

    Thank you for summarising this much better than I could.

  • edited June 2

    "Standing back and ignoring the issue is the same as endorsing it at this point, we should be on the right side of history"

    While I appreciate your zeal, @Username, and agree that the African American cause is very important indeed, statements like this are not helpful, and needlessly accusatory. Every one of us "stands back and ignores" horrible issues every day, by this logic.

    When was the last time a football club voiced it's opposition to sex slavery? By your logic, we are now endorsing sex slavery, which is one of the most heinous continual crimes in the world. When was the last time a football club voiced opposition to the persecution of various third world people groups? Or Chinese human rights abuses?

    Besides which, when you begin to endorse and justify violence, you have the thorny issue of explaining why some violence is wrong and some is right. The Las Vegas police officer who was shot in the back of the head last night is somehow justified collateral damage, because an unrelated police officer in Minneapolis is a murderous racist? MLK was extremely wise in his use of non-violent protests, as he realized that violence and peace are actual opposites, and counteract one another. If you use a flamethrower to put out a fire, you just make the fire larger.

    For what it's worth, I agree that the vast majority of the protests are peaceful, and that certain groups (Antifa, for example) have been using them as a platform for violence. The problem is when the violence itself is described as justified. The cause itself is harmed at that point, and a lot of African Americans are on record at being frustrated by the violence.

    My ultimate point is that I disagree with the assumption that just because people are not screaming on social media, they do not care about an issue. Ultimately, racism is an issue of the heart and mind, and must be fought against within families and communities. A white sportscaster here in America asked various black colleagues what he could do for the cause, and they all said the same thing. "Talk to your family." Issues of the heart and mind cannot be legislated into extinction, because laws can only govern actions, and attitudes of heart and mind are often not manifest into clear action until it is too late to stop them, only punish them. To get at the root of those actions, hearts and minds must be changed. Racism is not over when people stop acting racist. Racism is over when people stop thinking or feeling racist.

  • The idea it doesn't change anything is overly simplistic, yes racism still exists but some of the examples wendover raised were protesting not being able to go to the same schools or shops or other specific fights that otherwise wouldn't have been won, we've moved on in many ways, and it's shocking to think where the likes of Trump could drag us.

  • Brilliant words by Shev, wholeheartedly agree.

  • We have police firing rubber bullets and teargas at clergy, journalists and peaceful protestors whilst the President is claiming some kind of religious legitimacy through the violence of the state.

    Disgraceful scenes.

    In my view it’s unhelpful to pivot to conversations against so-called Antifa, literally and anti-facist organisation. It’s fundamentally part of the problem and dismisses legitimate claims.

  • @Glenactico sorry you don't like my attitude. I don't think I was disparaging or dismissing Me Too or Black Lives Matter and clearly many things and attitudes have changed for the better but public and media attention waxes and wanes and also movements and priorities change. I know all of life is politics and I'm perfectly happy and completely support the club in making it clear racism and sexism are unwelcome and that all the staff have equal opportunities and equal pay but I'm not keen on the club making any statement supporting the present protests. This does not make me an apolitical racist or sexist standing idly by as intolerance reigns either. As far as I can see it we are all for inclusion and make every effort to make that clear. That's enough for me. The question was asked and I gave an opinion. Other opinions are available.

  • @Shev said:
    MLK was extremely wise in his use of non-violent protests, as he realized that violence and peace are actual opposites, and counteract one another. If you use a flamethrower to put out a fire, you just make the fire larger.

  • AntiFa? Anti-fascist. Anti Racist. We should all be this.

    A lot of the "fuss" for want of a better word is around being specific. Let's get people arrested who have been seen to do things wrong, proportionally with dignity, not declaring groups of people bad and charging into protestors or random people on supposed other side's.

  • @Chris said:

    @Shev said:
    MLK was extremely wise in his use of non-violent protests, as he realized that violence and peace are actual opposites, and counteract one another. If you use a flamethrower to put out a fire, you just make the fire larger.

    So MLK was wrong?

  • @StrongestTeam said:
    AntiFa? Anti-fascist. Anti Racist. We should all be this.

    A lot of the "fuss" for want of a better word is around being specific. Let's get people arrested who have been seen to do things wrong, proportionally with dignity, not declaring groups of people bad and charging into protestors or random people on supposed other side's.

    Antifa is their name, not their M.O.

  • edited June 2

    @Shev said:

    For what it's worth, I agree that the vast majority of the protests are peaceful, and that certain groups (Antifa, for example)

    I need to pull you up on only one thing in your post Shev. Antifa is NOT a group. It literally means Anti Fascist.

    There are groups that are Antifa but there is no one card carrying group that is called Antifa. Some of those groups that are also Antifa are the ones that have caused the violence.

    Don't fall into the same trap Trump has by declaring ALL Antifa groups as potential terrorists or violent protestors.

    To do so would, well..... by that logic people like Churchill and Eisenhower and any one else that fought in WW2 are Terrorists as they literally fought a war which was based on being anti fascist.

  • @Shev said:

    @StrongestTeam said:
    AntiFa? Anti-fascist. Anti Racist. We should all be this.

    A lot of the "fuss" for want of a better word is around being specific. Let's get people arrested who have been seen to do things wrong, proportionally with dignity, not declaring groups of people bad and charging into protestors or random people on supposed other side's.

    Antifa is their name, not their M.O.

    It's the name the racist president gave a variety of groups, individuals and protestors in order to justify ignoring and ultimately attacking anyone who disagrees with him.

    Again appropriate punishment for individual crimes must be preserved.

  • With respect, non violent protests haven't worked, they have been essentially banned and told they cant happen In some cases (Eg NFL), and the non- violent protests happening today are being met with state violence.

    You have a president insinuating to other racists that they should arm themselves and to "dominate the streets" with armed police and military, throw onto the mix white supremacist vigilantes emboldened by Trump confronting the protestors and it's inevitable things turn violent.

  • Antigua are in no way an organised terrorist group, designating anyone who identifies as antifa a terrorist is sheer lunacy

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